Penetration Station: Who REALLY Raped Casca?

[BrokenGriffith]

Femto's not very emotional as he rapes Casca either. But despite his coldness, even when they meet during the Black Swordsman arc Femto takes obvious pleasure in putting Guts down.

He corrupted the embryo, but technically the boy had already been "created".

I'm going to go ahead and say the first version is the correct one. It seems pretty obvious that the rape of Casca was intended as a way to hurt Guts.

There is no way to know. Nowhere is it said that Guts and Casca's son was the only possible vessel.

The boy didn't "contain" Femto's "seed". It had been corrupted before birth by his evil. That's all.

It will most likely be his undoing.

Don't be mistaken though, the occasions where the boy manifested himself from within Griffith limit themselves to the Hill of Swords, at least as far as we know. And he came forth because his parents were concerned. There are also many occasions in the story when the "new" Griffith acted nicely simply because it suited his plans, playing the role of the savior and all that.

Yes sorry I understand the baby was corrupted, I just thought maybe Femto's seed mixed with the fetus in some way, and so contains a part of Femto, so it would be Femto's, Gut's and Casca's child. I know thats a bit gross and i'm probably taking it the wrong way, but that's why the vessel would be suitable because it is part Femto anyway.

And the only time it could have been created is in the circumstance of the eclipse where the humans are drawn into the God hand dimension.

Perhaps Guts son being caught up in the process of Griffiths incarnation was not part of the plan though? so it is a spanner in the works that has corrupted the incarnated Griffith? it's like the unforeseen factor that will cause his downfall and wasn't predicted to happen?

 

[ApostleBob]

I know what they say. That doesn't change my point about them fighting for who would have the right to her.

But your point about them fighting over her has no basis. We never see anything that supports that. It's a theory. You're ignoring what they say and what they do before the scene cuts back to Guts. They distinguish her as being a woman apostle, then decide that before they eat her they want to do something else. Then they tear off her clothes.

You seriously think that they are talking about fighting over her? That they tear off her clothes to fight over her. What is this "before that..." that they are speaking of?

The apostle holding her was about to kill her, not use her dead body like a trophy. He was about to kill her in a way that symbolizes rape, and that was emphasized in the panels in a big way.

Ah I see. "Before that..." meant that they wanted to kill her in a way that sympolizes rape and THEN eat her. That totally makes sense.

Well she was bleeding... And it makes sense that they'd keep her somewhat intact for what they planned to do (raping her and killing her), rather than keeping her intact after having done what they wanted with her.

I completely agree. They kept her alive because they were going to rape her and then kill her. And since when Guts arrives they were about to KILL her, it stands to reason that the raping already took place. Or did they just change their minds and say "You know guys, how 'bout we just do it symbolically. I'm not too comfortably with the whole rape thing." "Sure Steve, just put her on your head."

It probably took a while? They would have actually been rather quick about it. Time elapses, enough time for her to be carried around, but not much time at all if you assume she was raped by a dozen apostles.

We don't actually know how much time took place. It might not have been a ton of time since we can assume that Guts's actions were parallel. But it stands to reason that when Guts got there they were done with whatever they were doing with her and were ready to kill and eat her. Guts showed up before that could happen.

You're being disingenuous here. The process would have likely killed her, as it's been depicted in Berserk before when an monster had its way with a woman (or a man). And you say she was injured, then what of when Femto has his way with her? From her reactions to the way he's depicted doing it, it doesn't fit the scenario of that region having already been injured.

It probably would've seriously injured her, perhaps even mortally. Guts had mortal wounds as well. Woke up healed by elf dust and the elf cave.

As far as her being sensitve to Femto, I think that would've happened whether she was injured or not, but especially if she were injured. Don't think I need to go into detail.

I'm not sure which other example your referring to as far as a monster killing a human when having their way with them. The trolls? Kills them at birth, not the act. Where else do we see this?

I don't have to look again. I know the scenes. Like I told you, she's held upside down and no blood is flowing down. There is also not a "large stream" of blood. There's blood, like from the other wounds caused by the apostle holding her. Here are the pictures.

Notice the absence of blood coming down in the first picture. Then blood being shown flowing from fresh cuts in the second, and finally more blood in the third panel, with the apostles seemingly "getting ready" to do the deed. Another panel after that shows them "converging" somewhat towards her. That's another indication of what they were about to do, as opposed to having done. Anyway, notice how the blood flows across her buttocks in the third panel, while in the first picture no blood is shown there. That indicates the wound that drew said blood took place as Guts was watching.

I don't think the initial panels are that clear. Her position or the framing of it is always concealing that area. It seems more like they are intentionally obscuring that region only to reveal it right before Guts goes nuts.

You could be right and it might just be blood flow from another wound. She does have other cuts. But why position it THERE where it could easily be confused with something else. Especially after the apostles actions towards her before this, and the time gap between when we last saw her. I think Miura knew what he was doing, but intended readers to have the same horrible revelation as Guts.

This kind of situation? It's more than enough.

Why would she consistently associate this with rape and not Femto? By your logic she associates a symbolic rape over an actual one.

You're being disingenuous again, or just not understanding what I said.
[/quote]

Neither. I'm pointing out how ridiculous it is to say that a rape victim would associate later rape attempts with a non-rape. Sure, being grabbed at by a bunch of monsters would be traumatic. But more so than a rape by your former idol in front of the man you love?

The problem is that the implying you mention isn't backed up by anything concrete.

It's backed up a lot more than your grabbing contest theory. And there are plenty of solid indications in the comic.

The Apostles indicated that before eating her they wanted to do something to her. They rip off her clothes. Theres a gap of time. Guts finds her unconscious, surrounded by a bunch of phallic apostles, blood coming down her inner thigh, and the apostles are presumably done with whatever they wanted to do to her and are ready to kill her. In a way that symbolizes rape. Flash forward to the instances where insane Casca is in a position of attempted rape and she flashbacks to the apostles all over her.

That is all in the manga.

You say it's not shown because we wouldn't want to see it? Well I didn't want to see Femto rape her, but I did see it. Miura doesn't stop at such things.

In 95% of the time I'd agree with you. But sometimes he does, as I've already mentioned with tortured Griffith's face. With the fall of Midland. The rape of it's women to make Daka.

And I did see the apostles grab her and molest her anyway, so a panel more wouldn't have been a big deal. And no, it wouldn't have been "beyond pornographic" to make it clear what had happened. There was a myriad of ways to do it that would have been tasteful (see the scene from volume 23 I mentioned earlier, for example).

But it wasn't shown, only heavily implied. As to why Miura handled it this way, you and I can only speculate.

It wasn't done. That's why you rely on that one panel to support your entire hypothesis.

I've mentioned quite a bit more than one panel. Several actually, both in this volume and later in the series.

And where's your evidence for this grabbing contest that took place instead? Oh right, that one panel after they say they want to do something to her before eating her.

Anyway there's blood in that panel, that's a fact. But does it prove she was raped by apostles off screen, when no hint that she was is given?

Plenty of hints are given, you're just sticking your head in the sand to ignore them. You're not willing to look at hints or evidence supporting something you'd prefer isn't there, you're demanding 100% concrete proof like a fully illustrated panel depicting it. We both know that doesn't exist so you're claiming that by default you've been right all along. I'm saying that we don't know what happened in that time but there are some big hits that the apostles raped her. Since we never witness it, we cannot know for sure, but that doesn't mean we should ignore all indications that it might have happened.

Consider Volume 28, episode "The boy in the Moonlight." You're sure that Zodd is in this episode. That he was watching from the cliffs. He must be because there's a shadow on the horizon that kinda looks like one of his horns. He's never mentioned or alluded to, other than a panel of Guts looking up like he sensed something. That's it. The rest of your basis for your theory is that the moonlight boy is actually Griffith in the form of Guts and Casca's deformed son, now grown up and that Zodd dropped him off. Even though that's never been said, shown, or confirmed.

How is your standard of evidence so flimsy for one thing and so strict on another?

I absolutely could be wrong. But I'm not basing my interpretation on just made up fan fiction without basis. There are plenty of indicators.

Perhaps when Casca regains her sanity some light will be shed on things.

 

[Metal_Bear_Rex]

He corrupted the embryo, but technically the boy had already been "created".

I worded that poorly. I suppose a more accurate way to put it is that Femto came along to paint Guts and Casca's canvas unbeknowst to him in the IOE's visage

I'm going to go ahead and say the first version is the correct one. It seems pretty obvious that the rape of Casca was intended as a way to hurt Guts.

Yeah it's obvious, but I took the opportunity to make a tasteless joke.

 

[Walter]

But your point about them fighting over her has no basis. We never see anything that supports that. It's a theory.

It's a theory that makes sense. She was definitely passed between a few apostles since we saw her before. So walk me through how Casca would be passed from apostle to apostle in your version. These big hulking, drooling, erect-penis things would just hand her around like a bong? Probably not. It would probably be rather savage.

Ah I see. "Before that..." meant that they wanted to kill her in a way that sympolizes rape and THEN eat her. That totally makes sense...
...
They kept her alive because they were going to rape her and then kill her. And since when Guts arrives they were about to KILL her, it stands to reason that the raping already took place.

You guys are bickering back and forth so much that I'm now confused about why there's confusion about this scene.

The apostles appeared to be on the verge of killing her BY raping her—death by rape. The cuts on her body were likely sustained when they removed her clothing. Then, Femto interrupted them. The way the panels are drawn also lends credibility to the act itself being interrupted, rather than happening off screen. Is that interpretation not sound to you?

Perhaps when Casca regains her sanity some light will be shed on things.

I'm not sure what kind of answer you're seeking. Do you expect a graphic flashback focusing on her crotch blood?

 

[Aazealh]

Yes sorry I understand the baby was corrupted, I just thought maybe Femto's seed mixed with the fetus in some way, and so contains a part of Femto, so it would be Femto's, Guts and Casca's child.

Well that's not how occurred. The embryo was corrupted, and that's about it.

the God hand dimension.

Not sure it's proper to call that the "God Hand dimension". The place we saw them in during the Black Swordsman arc seems to be where they used to reside.

Perhaps Guts son being caught up in the process of Griffiths incarnation was not part of the plan though? so it is a spanner in the works that has corrupted the incarnated Griffith? it's like the unforeseen factor that will cause his downfall and wasn't predicted to happen?

Could be. I'm not so sure though. Those events were so unlikely to happen to perfection like they did that it feels like an unknown hand was involved in making it happen. And the episodes in which it happens, in which we see the Eclipse being mirrored, are called "Shadow of Idea".

What's very possible however is that it wasn't planned that the boy's ego would somehow perdure through the incarnation. Nor, maybe, that his parents would survive beyond that event, enticing him to manifest himself. Those things together are what makes the situation dangerous for Griffith.

I worded that poorly. I suppose a more accurate way to put it is that Femto came along to paint Guts and Casca's canvas unbeknowst to him in the IOE's visage

Hahaha, that is a cute way to put it.

But your point about them fighting over her has no basis. We never see anything that supports that.

Uhh, well the apostles who found her aren't the ones who hold her, or who are even around her, when Guts sees her later on. I'd say that's a pretty good basis for assuming some of them took her from the others.

You're ignoring what they say and what they do before the scene cuts back to Guts.

No I'm not?

They distinguish her as being a woman apostle

Oh really?

You seriously think that they are talking about fighting over her?

Wow, it seems pretty clear that you have a comprehension problem here. You should probably go and re-read what I wrote.

Ah I see. "Before that..." meant that they wanted to kill her in a way that sympolizes rape and THEN eat her. That totally makes sense.

Well technically speaking you could say he was about to kill her while raping her, and yeah, I imagine he'd have eaten her afterwards. That achieves everything in a single motion, and is a pretty degrading death. So yeah, I'd say it actually makes perfect sense.

I completely agree. They kept her alive because they were going to rape her and then kill her.

Which is what the apostles holding her was about to do when Guts saw her.

And since when Guts arrives they were about to KILL her, it stands to reason that the raping already took place.

See above.

Or did they just change their minds and say "You know guys, how 'bout we just do it symbolically. I'm not too comfortably with the whole rape thing." "Sure Steve, just put her on your head."

Oh boy, you're a funny one! Ever thought of being a comedian?

We don't actually know how much time took place.

No shit.

It probably would've seriously injured her, perhaps even mortally. Guts had mortal wounds as well. Woke up healed by elf dust and the elf cave.

Guts didn't have "mortal wounds". He had one particularly severe wound: his arm. And you're not arguing in good faith here.

As far as her being sensitve to Femto, I think that would've happened whether she was injured or not, but especially if she were injured. Don't think I need to go into detail.

Well I definitely don't think the situation would have happened like it did had she sustained severe injuries in that area. I don't think it would have been depicted like that, nor that it would have elicited the reactions it did from her.

I don't think the initial panels are that clear. Her position or the framing of it is always concealing that area.

It wouldn't conceal the blood flowing down, which in that panel we see flowing down the same area that was previsouly exposed (buttocks).

You could be right and it might just be blood flow from another wound. She does have other cuts. But why position it THERE where it could easily be confused with something else.

In volume 23, after Casca kills the bandits who attacked her, Guts arrives and finds her covered in their blood. She's not wounded herself, but she's naked and there is a panel that shows blood dripping from that same area. Why? Probably because it's a strong image.

I think Miura knew what he was doing, but intended readers to have the same horrible revelation as Guts.

Guts is too far away from her then to see that kind of detail. I've already told you that. Do I need to post the panel? A rape by the apostles is also never ever referred to by Guts, while he's obviously haunted by what Femto did.

Why would she consistently associate this with rape and not Femto? By your logic she associates a symbolic rape over an actual one.

I've already given you an answer for this, and I don't see what it has to do with being "symbolic". Re-read what I said.

I'm pointing out how ridiculous it is to say that a rape victim would associate later rape attempts with a non-rape. Sure, being grabbed at by a bunch of monsters would be traumatic. But more so than a rape by your former idol in front of the man you love?

The fact remains that she's reminded of the time she was seized by apostles, as an analogy to being assaulted by several would-be violators, and not of the rape by Femto in front of Guts. Yet that one is the big one, the one everyone makes a big deal out of. It's what took her sanity from her, what Guts can't forget, what the Skull Knight refers to when he talks about how their child was corrupted by evil. But you're saying that according to you, the apostles traumatized her more than that by gang-raping her offscreen prior to Femto. Well I don't agree.

And have you stopped to think about the fact that maybe she doesn't want to remember about that part? What Femto did to her? I mean she went insane for a reason.

It's backed up a lot more than your grabbing contest theory. And there are plenty of solid indications in the comic.

No, it's not. No, there aren't. And I don't have a "grabbing contest theory". Your lack of reading comprehension is embarrassing.

The Apostles indicated that before eating her they wanted to do something to her. They rip off her clothes. Theres a gap of time. Guts finds her unconscious, surrounded by a bunch of phallic apostles, blood coming down her inner thigh, and the apostles are presumably done with whatever they wanted to do to her and are ready to kill her. In a way that symbolizes rape. Flash forward to the instances where insane Casca is in a position of attempted rape and she flashbacks to the apostles all over her.

Apostles capture Casca, mention how they want to eat her, but before that... Then there's a gap of time, seemingly not too long. Guts sees Casca, unconscious, being held by different apostles than the ones that found her. They're about to kill her by impaling her through the genitals, a fittingly humiliating death for a female sacrifice, highly symbolical of rape. They're interrupted. Long after, as Casca is in danger of being assaulted by several brigands, she has flashes of her being surrounded by apostles, a fitting visual comparison.

In 95% of the time I'd agree with you. But sometimes he does, as I've already mentioned with tortured Griffith's face. With the fall of Midland. The rape of it's women to make Daka.

That's a really, really weak rebuttal. We already saw everything when it comes to Casca's fate during the Occultation ceremony. We saw the horror because we were meant to. You compare it to the fall of Midland? How irrelevant. And we saw what mattered of that fall. Same for everything else in Berserk. We see what matters. We saw the women giving birth to Daka. We saw Griffith's wounds. And while we didn't see his face, because obscuring it was more powerful than showing it, we knew for sure that he was disfigured, and had details about it.

But it wasn't shown, only heavily implied. As to why Miura handled it this way, you and I can only speculate.

Heavily implied says you.

I've mentioned quite a bit more than one panel. Several actually, both in this volume and later in the series.

You've mentioned things that don't particularly support what you say. And I've addressed them already.

And where's your evidence for this grabbing contest that took place instead? Oh right, that one panel after they say they want to do something to her before eating her.

Since you seem obsessed by that sentence for some incomprehensible reason, let me point out again that we do see many apostles grabbing her, and that the apostles holding her later on were not the ones who originally seized her. That's things we actually see, as opposed to, you know, what you think happened.

Plenty of hints are given, you're just sticking your head in the sand to ignore them. You're not willing to look at hints or evidence supporting something you'd prefer isn't there, you're demanding 100% concrete proof like a fully illustrated panel depicting it.

The rape of Casca is a big deal to the story. It was covered extensively in the manga, in details. It was mentioned many times. It was built in a certain way, with events leading up to it. You're saying a shadow rape happened off-screen and was more traumatic to her than Femto's, based on blood dripping down in a single panel, something you have recognized could possibly come from other wounds. Your single other piece of evidence is the flashbacks she has later on, for which I've also given you what I believe are plausible explanations. Now, I've addressed all of what you said and posted pictures so that we'd be clear on things. Meanwhile you've misconstrued half of what I said and chosen to focus on some irrelevant phrasing like it mattered. Who's at fault here?

Consider Volume 28, episode "The boy in the Moonlight." You're sure that Zodd is in this episode. That he was watching from the cliffs. He must be because there's a shadow on the horizon that kinda looks like one of his horns. He's never mentioned or alluded to, other than a panel of Guts looking up like he sensed something. That's it. The rest of your basis for your theory is that the moonlight boy is actually Griffith in the form of Guts and Casca's deformed son, now grown up and that Zodd dropped him off. Even though that's never been said, shown, or confirmed.

How is your standard of evidence so flimsy for one thing and so strict on another?

My standards are as strict in all cases. You're just showing bad faith, or maybe lacking the mental faculties required to comprehend what I say. But please, go reply to my posts about the Moonlight Boy and find fault with them, it will amuse me.

 

[Rodrigo]

Your reasoning has merit, but the apostles were not saving her up for Femto. We clearly see that they were about to impale her before Femto was born. 5 seconds later and she would have been dead.

Still, the fact that the apostles immediately halted their assault on Casca the moment they saw Femto emerge from beneath the clenched "God's Hand", it says something, doesn't it? It's as if an inner voice commanded the apostles "No, not her. This one's for the boss." Again, to use an analogy with predatory pack animals, no wolf would dare to eat the meat from the prey's thighs or the back (the most savory parts), if the leader of the pack is nearby. And for the apostles, them being the anthropophagic creatures that they are, the young pretty girls like Casca are probably the most desirable and "savory" kind of prey. As the Snake Baron, Wyald and the prototype's Lord Vlad Tepes can all readily attest.

 

[Walter]

Still, the fact that the apostles immediately halted their assault on Casca the moment they saw Femto emerge from beneath the clenched "God's Hand", it says something, doesn't it? It's as if an inner voice commanded the apostles "No, not her. This one's for the boss." Again, to use an analogy with predatory pack animals, no wolf would dare to eat the meat from the prey's thighs or the back (the most savory parts), if the leader of the pack is nearby. And for the apostles, them being the anthropophagic creatures that they are, the young pretty girls like Casca are probably the most desirable and "savory" kind of prey. As the Snake Baron, Wyald and the prototype's Lord Vlad Tepes can all readily attest.

They obey their master, sure. But what they were turning for was the birth of Femto. Anyway, as Aazealh said it doesn't appear they were saving her for him, but instead were interrupted.

 

[Aazealh]

Still, the fact that the apostles immediately halted their assault on Casca the moment they saw Femto emerge from beneath the clenched "God's Hand", it says something, doesn't it?

Much like you stop texting when the fireworks start, they stopped because it was the main event, one that inspires a kind of reverence in them. If you look at the scene it's quite obvious that they didn't plan to keep her for Femto.

 

[Doc]

Doesn't the fact they were about to impale her support the notion that she was raped? It does seem quite... un-Apostle like for them to give her a groping and then sacrifice her instead of going the whole hog. Wyald wasn't shy about that sort of thing. And they obviously didn't know at this point that she would be prepared for Griffith Femto.

There's several flashbacks of Casca from the Eclipse in a rather rape-like imagery surrounded by Apostles, perhaps the one in Volume 23 being the most striking.

 

[Aazealh]

Doesn't the fact they were about to impale her support the notion that she was raped? It does seem quite... un-Apostle like for them to give her a groping and then sacrifice her

No? See what was said above.

Also, what's your take exactly? You just posted that "Casca most likely wasn't raped by the apostles only brutally molested" in the anime thread. So which one is it? And she had been sacrificed already, by Griffith. The apostles don't sacrifice the people by eating them.

Wyald wasn't shy about that sort of thing.

That's hardly the same situation. Completely different context, and Wyald wasn't your run of the mill apostle either (see his attitude towards Griffith).

There's several flashbacks of Casca from the Eclipse in a rather rape-like imagery surrounded by Apostles, perhaps the one in Volume 23 being the most striking.

You didn't read the previous conversation, did you?

 

[BrokenGriffith]

Surely if the apostles has their way with Casca their would be more 'damage', she looks relatively unscathed, I imagine if an apostle in full transformation mode went full beast on her she wouldn't have survived.

From what we have seen of Apostle appendages they aren't exactly your run of the mill shape or size, whereas I imagine Femto is more streamlined in that department.

 

[IncantatioN]

Interesting discussion. My impression has always been clear that Femto was the only being that violated Casca during the Eclipse, in the way. There was no doubt that those Apostles were about kill/ tear her apart/ whatever her when just at that moment Femto was born and they stopped. There didn't seem to be a panel with anything going inside her, like Miura depicts during her time with Guts by the waterfall before Griffith's rescue or with Femto during the eclipse. Reading the topic, seeing that picture Aaz posted where Casca has a tentacle in her mouth and not raping her further cements the fact because if it did happen, Miura wouldn't shy from showing it to the reader.

 

[Death May Die]

This thread is 9 kinds of not awesome. What a tasteless name to it as well. Is this what you prefer to ponder at the water cooler every afternoon?

Casca wasn't raped by apostles. Even in the anime the apostles tell each other to save her for their new king. The anime isn't entirely discreditable. If they did rape her I doubt she would have even survived, given their mysterious forms and sizes. Also, in raping her it would take away from the focus of Femto doing it, which is what Miura surely wanted us to focus on. That scene may not of been as potent if apostles had their way with her right before. I don't think that is how Miura wanted to happen in the story or how he wanted it to be told. Why have the apostles rape her at the ceremony, why not have her raped by Wyald if it was going to happen by a apostle? I think most would agree that Casca wasn't defiled until being delivered to Femto. Which thankfully is generally better, and more gripping story telling.

 

[Walter]

This thread is 9 kinds of not awesome. What a tasteless name to it as well. Is this what you prefer to ponder at the water cooler every afternoon?

I agree. But I gave it the name as a parody for how ridiculous the whole discussion is (see my first few replies). All this nonsense originally began in the Movie 3 thread... so I moved it here and changed the name.

 

[Aazealh]

Even in the anime the apostles tell each other to save her for their new king. The anime isn't entirely discreditable.

Listen, I don't know what you're talking about, but the apostles weren't "saving her" for Femto. That's not debatable. I really wish I didn't have to have the same conversation over and over again.

 

[Doc]

Also, what's your take exactly? You just posted that "Casca most likely wasn't raped by the apostles only brutally molested" in the anime thread. So which one is it? And she had been sacrificed already, by Griffith. The apostles don't sacrifice the people by eating them.

You'll note I also said it was difficult to know either way, as it all happens off-screen and by the time we return to Casca she's naked and about to be finished off. Just playing a little devil's advocate because in my opinion ApostleBob does have a valid point.

That's hardly the same situation. Completely different context, and Wyald wasn't your run of the mill apostle either (see his attitude towards Griffith).

Explain how. Wyald's a Lovecraftian horror who gets the chance to rape a human chick and almost takes it. Now imagine a whole group of these monsters with the same prey at their mercy with no interruptions. Especially as these same nasties denude her and imply they have something planned before snacktime. I'm not sure what relevance Wyald's designs on Griffith have in this discussion.

 

[BrokenGriffith]

Maybe the Apostles were about to start raping Casca when Guts catches eye of her, she is surrounded by Apostles with very phallic qualities with the one holding her about top lower her onto his spiked penis head, who's to know whether that is in fact its penis she's being lowered onto and the rape was about to begin, then its interrupted by Femto's Birth.

Its kind of hard to match up the timeline as Guts is on the alter when everyone's getting killed, but it seems like Casca and Judeau last pretty long in comparison to everyone else. So the timing could match up with Guts getting down around the time just after she was captured.

 

[Walter]

Maybe the Apostles were about to start raping Casca when Guts catches eye of her, she is surrounded by Apostles with very phallic qualities with the one holding her about top lower her onto his spiked penis head, who's to know whether that is in fact its penis she's being lowered onto and the rape was about to begin, then its interrupted by Femto's Birth.

Read the thread. Many have said this.

 

[Aazealh]

You'll note I also said it was difficult to know either way, as it all happens off-screen and by the time we return to Casca she's naked and about to be finished off. Just playing a little devil's advocate because in my opinion ApostleBob does have a valid point.

Well his position is valid in that we don't see what happens between the time the apostles seize her and the time she's about to be raped/killed by one of them, and that there is a panel showing blood near the genital area. However, as I have stated above, given the way the entire event is built up, I don't believe it makes much sense to assume it happened like ApostleBob thinks it did.

Explain how. Wyald's a Lovecraftian horror who gets the chance to rape a human chick and almost takes it. Now imagine a whole group of these monsters with the same prey at their mercy with no interruptions. Especially as these same nasties denude her and imply they have something planned before snacktime. I'm not sure what relevance Wyald's designs on Griffith have in this discussion.

A Lovecraftian horror? Really? That would be more appropriate for the denizens of the Solitary Island and their god, don't you think?

Anyway, Wyald was all about enjoying himself. He was in a way the ultimate apostle in that he respected nothing, not Zodd, not even the God Hand. He's introduced as being horny from the very beginning, and it's no coincidence that his design was that of a monkey either. Now, the apostles at the Eclipse were part of a ceremony. They certainly had no qualms with eating and raping and that's pretty much what was expected of them anyway, but the context is not quite the same as Wyald stumbling on a girl in the middle of nowhere. Otherwise these guys would have immediately raped and killed Casca (which is what Wyald did with that girl). But they didn't. They undressed her and carried her away and eventually she wound up in the "hands" of one apostle whose design is essentially that of a giant penis with a stinger on top of the glans, who proceeded to slowly impale her on top of himself. Pretty much the quintessential rape. Apt, considering the moment. But then they stopped, for Femto was being born. Now the question I ask you is: would have Wyald stopped? Would he have shown deference and been ceremonious even in such a grotesque way? I think not. Nor would she have been left alive had he raped her, given the size of his "appendage". But Wyald wasn't there, and these guys clearly weren't like him.

 

[Death May Die]

Listen, I don't know what you're talking about, but the apostles weren't "saving her" for Femto. That's not debatable. I really wish I didn't have to have the same conversation over and over again.

Yah, yes. Now I see, the apostles say nothing in the manga. However, in the dubbed anime they do speak about saving her for their king. Yes, I know that the anime is wrong as well. I simply had the impression that it had happened.

After a second look it does look like Casca is suddenly "sparked" by something. But I'm not entirely sure its the apostle beneath her having entered her. Quite a close call of a brutal death to say the least.

 

[Aazealh]

After a second look it does look like Casca is suddenly "sparked" by something. But I'm not entirely sure its the apostle beneath her having entered her. Quite a close call of a brutal death to say the least.

Yeah, he's at the threshold, it's implied by the artwork as well if you pay close attention. Just like you say, quite a close call.

 

[Doc]

I still think Exhibit A (Volume 23) gives some credence to the Apostles having their wicked way with Casca before Femto:

Spoiler

It's pretty damning. Casca's about to get raped and the next scene we see a PTSD flashback where she's surrounded by phallic-shaped monsters, crying out in pain with all kinds of tentacles and feelers reaching out towards her. And notice her privates are deliberately shadowed out, which doesn't rule out penetration. Her expression, if anything, more than suggests it.

Which is interesting because Miura uses the Femto parallel for Farnese when she's about to be attacked by rapehorse (correct me if I'm wrong), but doesn't pull it up here. In fact, it's not the first time he uses this same imagery of Casca with the Apostles. Purely speculating here, but perhaps his reason for originally omitting Casca's fate at the hands of the Apostles at the Eclipse is twofold. One, is the cutaway is a classic visual device, especially for horror scenes. The last we see of Casca is her being savagely groped and stripped by the Apostles, the rest lies with the darkest recesses of our imagination. Secondly, and more importantly, it would have taken away from her subsequent rape by Femto, not on an emotional level of course, but on a purely visceral one.

 

[Walter]

The apostles held her down, tore her clothes off and felt her up. These losers did the same. That's all.

 

[Aazealh]

It's pretty damning. Casca's about to get raped and the next scene we see a PTSD flashback where she's surrounded by phallic-shaped monsters, crying out in pain with all kinds of tentacles and feelers reaching out towards her. And notice her privates are deliberately shadowed out, which doesn't rule out penetration. Her expression, if anything, more than suggests it.

I asked you if you had read the conversation earlier because I had specifically addressed this scene, noting that it seemed more a fanciful representation than an actual flashback to what had happened. I noted it as opposed to the scene we see in volume 18, where we see specifically the same apostles who surround her before Guts sees her, all around her while she screams and about to grab her with various "tentacles". At that point, according to that picture, she's still intact. Not a drop of blood on her whole body. If we assume the one who ends up holding her just won the grabbing contest before Guts arrived, well that removes pretty much all mystery from the event.

Anyway, if you want to make sense of that scene in volume 23, it could also simply represent the very moment she's about to be raped/killed by the apostle holding her with his tentacles (notice them holding her arms in that picture), when she's jolted, just before Femto's birth stops it. Pretty simple really.

Which is interesting because Miura uses the Femto parallel for Farnese when she's about to be attacked by rapehorse (correct me if I'm wrong), but doesn't pull it up here.

I'd like to correct your use of "rapehorse", as we're not 14 years old. Anyway, when Farnese was in danger, it's Guts who is reminded of what Femto did to Casca. Because Guts has kept his sanity and remembers that moment all too clearly, unlike Casca who has apparently blocked it out, resulting in her current condition.

In fact, it's not the first time he uses this same imagery of Casca with the Apostles. Purely speculating here, but perhaps his reason for originally omitting Casca's fate at the hands of the Apostles at the Eclipse is twofold. One, is the cutaway is a classic visual device, especially for horror scenes. The last we see of Casca is her being savagely groped and stripped by the Apostles, the rest lies with the darkest recesses of our imagination. Secondly, and more importantly, it would have taken away from her subsequent rape by Femto, not on an emotional level of course, but on a purely visceral one.

But as long as it happened it would take away from it (or completely ruin it, really), whether you show it or not. That's why it's hard to believe. And I repeat myself but I've already had this same conversation with ApostleBob.

 

[Metal_Bear_Rex]

I agree. But I gave it the name as a parody for how ridiculous the whole discussion is (see my first few replies). All this nonsense originally began in the Movie 3 thread... so I moved it here and changed the name.

This thread is 9 kinds of not awesome. What a tasteless name to it as well. Is this what you prefer to ponder at the water cooler every afternoon?

Oh come now, Lighten up guys. If we tried to have an entirely serious conversation about every vile occurrence in Berserk it would get boring quick.