What if Griffith is right? (only up-to-date fans should read this)

What if Griffith really is the hero of the series? What if he has a plan to destroy "GOD" and free everyone's minds?

What if the apostles know that Griffith's the one in their foretold prophecy that will battle the Idea of God and Godhand, whilst God and his hand prepare for the "revelation" to begin?

What if Griffith went so far as to tell his apostles, "do not kill Gattsu"?
- He's had more than enough chances to kill Gattsu.

Not to mention the foreshawding by the involvement of Skullknight and Locus. Locus' character description states that (paraphrase)Locus only serves those that are not inferior and that he found Griffith through an Oracle.
 
carbonater said:
What if Griffith really is the hero of the series? What if he has a plan to destroy "GOD" and free everyone's minds?

What if the apostles know that Griffith's the one in their foretold prophecy that will battle the Idea of God and Godhand, whilst God and his hand prepare for the "revelation" to begin?
I don't know about anyone else, but I for one would be utterly disgusted if such a pretentious turn of events took place.

What if Griffith went so far as to tell his apostles, "do not kill Guts"?
- He's had more than enough chances to kill Guts.

Not to mention the foreshawding by the involvement of Skullknight and Locus. Locus' character description states that (paraphrase)Locus only serves those that are not inferior and that he found Griffith through an Oracle.
It could be argued that Griffith still in a way cares enough about Guts to not want to kill him. He seems to be completely cold but if that was completely true he would not have went to the hill of swords.

Even then he stopped Zodd from killing Guts (as by that stage he probably had the upper hand) but I doubt very much he would stop Apostles from attacking Guts period. Story might become a little boring....
 
Sparnage said:
I don't know about anyone else, but I for one would be utterly disgusted if such a pretentious turn of events took place.
UGH. there goes that word again. :schierke:

how about using something less vague and overused than that. I really don't understand how those turn of events would justify the p-word being thrown around. AGAIN.

You're dead to me Sparnage. DEAD. :miura:
 

Aazealh

そうはいかぬ
Staff member
Hi and welcome carbonater, that's a lot of "what if" you posted here.

carbonater said:
What if Griffith really is the hero of the series?
I think it should be pretty clear by now that Guts is the hero of the series in every sense of the term. He's the protagonist and he's the one fighting heroically against all odds for a noble cause. Griffith may presently look like a hero to Midland inhabitants, but not to the reader.

carbonater said:
What if he has a plan to destroy "GOD" and free everyone's minds?
Well, his only plan for now and as far as we know is to get his own kingdom. Also, since that plan of his was decided upon by God when it created Griffith, how could it possibly ignore another plan which goal would be to destroy it? Would it have let that possibility slip with one of the most important keys in its supposed masterplan, incorporating all the smaller goals of its pawns? I doubt it. Lastly, destroying the Idea of Evil wouldn't "free everyone's minds". People aren't mind controlled by Idea, so if it were not to exist anymore, nothing much would change for them, they wouldn't just wake up like the mandragorans in the DC game. Remember Idea and the God Hand's motto: "do as you will".

carbonater said:
What if the apostles know that Griffith's the one in their foretold prophecy that will battle the Idea of God and Godhand, whilst God and his hand prepare for the "revelation" to begin?
Uhh, it's the Idea of Evil, not Idea of God. Anyway, Griffith is their leader because he's a member of the God Hand that came down to earth; they had a dream like many others in which the Hawk came to them. The prophecy is actually not specific to apostles, we've been introduced to it through the Holy See, Schierke and the Kushans (Bakiraka), not them. And it's not a prophecy about saving anything but on the contrary dooming the world. Griffith is also still a part of the God Hand by the way, he just has a material body now. The apostles literally worship the God Hand, and I don't think they'd side with any of its members in the highly unlikely case where one would oppose the others.

carbonater said:
What if Griffith went so far as to tell his apostles, "do not kill Guts"? - He's had more than enough chances to kill Guts.
I'm afraid that isn't very credible. The apostles at Flora's mansion tried all they could to kill Guts, and did a pretty good job. I don't think they have any special order concerning him, though that could be different now that (if) Griffith learned what happened there. As for Griffith not killing him, remember what he told him as Femto in volume 3. Guts is nothing to Griffith, just an insignificant bug. Or at least that's what he would like to think. :void: His attitude of laissez faire toward Guts is the result of his overzealous attempt at proving he doesn't mean anything to him anymore, and is probably what will eventually cause his downfall IMHO, but that's another discussion.

carbonater said:
Not to mention the foreshawding by the involvement of Skullknight and Locus. Locus' character description states that (paraphrase)Locus only serves those that are not inferior and that he found Griffith through an Oracle.
What foreshadowing? First, Locus never says so, it's Mule that is reminded of his legend in volume 23. Second, that's a mistranslation, the legend actually says that Locus never had any master, he only spent all of his time training. That means that the first master he ever served is Griffith. The one searching for someone stronger (the Ultimate Strong One) is Zodd. And the fact Locus knew about Griffith through an oracle (read "divine message" here) is really nothing special, everybody did. Guts did, the Midland king did, Raban did, all the other apostles did. I don't see how Skull Knight is supposed to be related either.
 
Aazealh said:
Hi and welcome carbonater, that's a lot of "what if" you posted here.
Hello and thanks. I just wanted to get a good conversation started with my first post. I know that all of this is a long shot, but let's have fun debating this.

Aazealh said:
I think it should be pretty clear by now that Guts is the hero of the series in every sense of the term. He's the protagonist and he's the one fighting heroically against all odds for a noble cause. Griffith may presently look like a hero to Midland inhabitants, but not to the reader.
I'm not saying that Guts isn't the hero. I was thinking along the lines that Griffith may be getting Guts ready by throwing these obstacles at him. Guts is slowly building a group of mortals that actually fight demons along side him. Through Guts and Griffith the mortal world is "waking up" and that's what I meant by freeing minds earlier. Guts is ONE of the main heroes in this theory.    

Aazealh said:
Well, his only plan for now and as far as we know is to get his own kingdom. Also, since that plan of his was decided upon by God when it created Griffith, how could it possibly ignore another plan which goal would be to destroy it? Would it have let that possibility slip with one of the most important keys in its supposed masterplan, incorporating all the smaller goals of its pawns? I doubt it.
In my first post I mentioned "what if"(lol) the Godhand and the Idea were aware of this and knew that it must be done. They're actually preparing for it as well. The Idea may or may not be destroyed, but it's going to go through with the battle because it's predetermined. It's possible that the Idea doesn't even know the outcome.   

Aazealh said:
Uhh, it's the Idea of Evil, not Idea of God.
yeah I made a mistake...luckily you got my point though.

Aazealh said:
Anyway, Griffith is their leader because he's a member of the God Hand that came down to earth; they had a dream like many others in which the Hawk came to them. The prophecy is actually not specific to apostles, we've been introduced to it through the Holy See, Schierke and the Kushans (Bakiraka), not them. And it's not a prophecy about saving anything but on the contrary dooming the world. Griffith is also still a part of the God Hand by the way, he just has a material body now.
I completely understand the prophecy that was given to us. I'm talking about a possible prophecy that only the apostles, Godhand, and the Idea know of. Again, it's just a theory. 

Aazealh said:
I'm afraid that isn't very credible. The apostles at Flora's mansion tried all they could to kill Guts, and did a pretty good job. I don't think they have any special order concerning him, though that could be different now that (if) Griffith learned what happened there. As for Griffith not killing him, remember what he told him as Femto in volume 3. Guts is nothing to Griffith, just an insignificant bug. Or at least that's what he would like to think. :void: His attitude of laissez faire toward Guts is the result of his overzealous attempt at proving he doesn't mean anything to him anymore, and is probably what will eventually cause his downfall IMHO, but that's another discussion.
I'm going to have to completely agree with you on this one.

Aazealh said:
What foreshadowing? First, Locus never says so, it's Mule that is reminded of his legend in volume 23. Second, that's a mistranslation, the legend actually says that Locus never had any master, he only spent all of his time training. That means that the first master he ever served is Griffith. The one searching for someone stronger (the Ultimate Strong One) is Zodd. And the fact Locus knew about Griffith through an oracle (read "divine message" here) is really nothing special, everybody did. Guts did, the Midland king did, Raban did, all the other apostles did. I don't see how Skull Knight is supposed to be related either.
Well, I actuallly shouldn't have typed that last paragraph because it's retarded. I take that one back.
 

CnC

Ad Oculos
carbonater said:
I know that all of this is a long shot, but let's have fun debating this.
Nah, screw that and screw YOU! ...ok j/k. :troll:

carbonater said:
I'm not saying that Guts isn't the hero. I was thinking along the lines that Griffith may be getting Guts ready by throwing these obstacles at him. Guts is slowly building a group of mortals that actually fight demons along side him. Through Guts and Griffith the mortal world is "waking up" and that's what I meant by freeing minds earlier. Guts is ONE of the main heroes in this theory.
Theres really nothing to point to Griffith having any consideration of Guts in his plans. And just a bit more evidence that he doesn't really give a damn what Guts does. He's "free" of him.

carbonater said:
In my first post I mentioned "what if"(lol) the Godhand and the Idea were aware of this and knew that it must be done. They're actually preparing for it as well. The Idea may or may not be destroyed, but it's going to go through with the battle because it's predetermined. It's possible that the Idea doesn't even know the outcome.
The aspects of Idea, in that I mean what he is and what he does, were taken out of the story (by Miura, stating that it revealed too much too soon). So theres no longer anything to prove what he knows and doesn't know. I guess its up to us to give Miura the mulligan on that one.

carbonater said:
I completely understand the prophecy that was given to us. I'm talking about a possible prophecy that only the apostles, Godhand, and the Idea know of. Again, it's just a theory.
I'm going to have to completely agree with you on this one.
Well, I actuallly shouldn't have typed that last paragraph because it's retarded. I take that one back.
Yea, but then again we're back to that pesky "no evidence to prove this"-thing. Even theories are based on evidence. Without it, well, its just called a blog. And those suck.
 
CnC said:
Theres really nothing to point to Griffith having any consideration of Guts in his plans.  And just a bit more evidence that he doesn't really give a damn what Guts does.  He's "free" of him.
There shouldn't be anything that shows Griffith's "consideration of Guts". What I'm saying is we could be set up for a huge plot twist later. There's nothing that truly proves or disproves it.
 

King-2E

I'll kick him in the head
carbonater said:
There shouldn't be anything that shows Griffith's "consideration of Guts". What I'm saying is we could be set up for a huge plot twist later. There's nothing that truly proves or disproves it.
I think the confirmation of Griffith no longer having any feeling for guts was evident on the hill of swords. Futhermore, it seems that it was enough just to test that feeling, then ignore him completely when it was true.

Also, whatever comes into play later between the two will most likely be a complex web of; Guts, the Beast, his moonkid, and griffith, etc.

Even if you are right, there would be a lot more involved than Griffith suddenly becoming Guts' secret admirer again

I'm more curious to see what part the other GodHands play than I am in whatever Griffith does, because we at least have an idea of him trying to become King of the new era.
 
King-2E said:
I'm more curious to see what part the other GodHands play than I am in whatever Griffith does, because we at least have an idea of him trying to become King of the new era.
Yes. I do wonder if they have a common agenda or separate goals that will ultimately be the prophecy's completion?
 

Tenro

...You tit.
They wouldn't be Godhand if they weren't going to follow the Idea's plan. Griffith is the culmination of Idea's work, so I doubt it'd have Godhand in place to screw it up now. In fact, I'm sure of it. They will not turn on Griffith, not as they are now.
 

King-2E

I'll kick him in the head
You can't say anything for sure when it comes to them because they're cloaked in mystery and haven't really had any character development beyond hints to their personality and their roles.

Who knows if they would turn on him or not? No one. It could be counter productive in many ways, but I'm not putting it past Miura because betrayal for self-gain has been such a large theme in berserk. Not endorsing the idea, but not counting it out either.
 
Who knows, its not really clear what the God Hands true intentions are. The Godhand could even be taking advantage of Griffith and his dream. There are tons of possibilities out there.
 
carbonater said:
What if Griffith really is the hero of the series? What if he has a plan to destroy "GOD" and free everyone's minds?

What if the apostles know that Griffith's the one in their foretold prophecy that will battle the Idea of God and Godhand, whilst God and his hand prepare for the "revelation" to begin?

What if Griffith went so far as to tell his apostles, "do not kill Guts"?
- He's had more than enough chances to kill Guts.

Not to mention the foreshawding by the involvement of Skullknight and Locus. Locus' character description states that (paraphrase)Locus only serves those that are not inferior and that he found Griffith through an Oracle.
Sounds like Berserk seasoned with a pitch/logline for the Matrix... Seriously though, much of the langauge you are using is very reminiscent of The Matrix (though it is not like the Matrix is the first film to introduce such idea's but that is another debate altogether). Maybe it is just me, but are some of these ideas you're sharing influenced by that little known 1999 science fiction film?
 
wow. My first sentence asks "What if Griffith has a plan..." The only plan I remember the protagonist of The Matrix having is the one to save Morpheus. I also used the words "the one", but I don't think I put enough emphasis on it to be used in the all-powerful way.

I like to think that I wouldn't post a Matrix influenced speculation.
 

Tenro

...You tit.
Zelz said:
Who knows, its not really clear what the God Hands true intentions are. The Godhand could even be taking advantage of Griffith and his dream. There are tons of possibilities out there.
But their intentions don't matter. What the Godhand want means nothing, since the Idea is in complete control of the scenario. The Idea wants Griffith to follow his dream, and he will not let any creature, much less his own Godhand, interfere with that.

EDIT: Okay, that's assuming that the Idea wants Griffith to succeed. I kind of took that for granted.
 

aksaC

Sex'n Swordplay
Nothing Griffith could do would ever amend what he did to Guts and Caska. So even if he was a perfect hero from this point on, he would still have to pay in some way somewhere down the line:guts:
 
If there's anyone who can "destroy" the Idea of Evil that man is Griffith..
Who else to touch the heart of every human in the planet?
I mean.. Only if Idea of Evil is made by the "thoughts of everybody"..
nah..
It's possible.. It would be a very "japanese-like" ending.. i guess.. :judo:
 
I think that would be impossiable, because I remember reading on that lost episode or whatever, where griffith is talking one on one with the idea of evil the idea says something along the lines of "What you want I want, our desires are one in the same"
 

Femto the Raven

The location of agony? The human soul.
Old thread, but I find it very interesting.
While I doubt Griffith plans to overthrow, replace, defeat, or flush the Idea of Evil, who knows what he is actually planning.

He told Guts on the hill of swords that he told him what he wanted and nothing else but that dream matters.
I just wonder what Griffith's idea of a Kingdom is? The world? The whole Interstice? Something more then that?

But even if Griffith is 'right' (doubtful) Guts still must avenge himself and Caska for what Griffith did to them. Guts won't stop until he does.

And I find it ironic that a earlier poster was complianing about a 'Pretentious' (the word burns my tounge :puck:) ending taking place.

The word Pretentious as defined by the American Heritage Dictionary reads:

1. Claiming or demanding a position of distinction or merit, esp. when unjustified.

2.Making or marked by an extravagant outward show; ostentatious. (showy)

Going by the first Definition, Griffith is easily the most Pretentious character in the entire Berserk mythos! If anyone thinks he can sever humanity from a chian of causality or destroy the Idea or Godhand, it's him!

I don't think this anything like his goal, but why slap it with the P-word?

And going by the second, the whole damn manga is pretentious!
Which I doubt anyone thinks.

I will now proceed to bash my head into the ground (Mozgus style) for every time I used that blatently overused word. :void:
 

LadyCs

Not all memories are meant to be remembered
I personally think Griffith has a soft spot for Guts for two reasons possibly 1) he's come back to the material world and he had the urge to find out if he still cared. Which he did we all saw him put a hand over his heart flying away on Zodd. 2) He actually used Guts's son to give himself a body. Just like Slain (probably got the name wrong but she's the Medusa chick of the god hand) had to take over organs to actually appear. That's the only 2 ways I can think of that he had ordered for Guts not to die. Or he just doesnt' find him a threat and finds him amusing.

If Griffith became the hero of that story I'd burn that volume and go write a fanfic. It's true that when Griffith was getting transformed the vortex thingie gave him the choice of changing the world for the better or worse but there are 3 things wrong with that

1) the chaos vortex thingie (I'm to lazy to go look in the encyclopedia to find out the correct name) in my opinon is evil. If its asking you to sacrfice your friends for power then something seriously wrong.

2) Griffith wasn't someone nice to begin with, Judeu says it when he was first talking about Griffith that none of the hawks were sure he was good or evil. Oh and not to mention its destined he is to bring in a darker age of misery. Seriously I doubt he'll somehow become the hero of the story.

No one is good or evil not really in the series. Its basically they are human (well some lol) and they make choices that either make them defined as evil or good. In my opinon after all the crap that Guts has had to face he is the good guy. He's never done anything to really hurt someone unless they deserved it, or asked for it. Griffith might have gone insane but he knew what he was doing when he thought about being a king and how he'd do anything for it. He killed good men for his own goal. Guts when it came to his own "family" like the hawks were I doubt he'd ever do that for something so well lol evil.

I changed the pointless it was a mistake
 
Circe said:
Guts when it came to his own "family" like the hawks were I doubt he'd ever do that for something so pointless
I'm fairly certain Griffith wasn't in the right mind when he made that decision (if I remember correctly, he was also within an illusion created by the God Hand)... And I wouldn't call it pointless. If you're talking about becoming king, it's been his dream since he was a kid, the one thing he's always wanted, the one thing he's devoted every ounce of his energy towards. If you mean just sacrificing them in general... Well... He's literally a god among men now, LOL.

Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, I probably am, LOL.
 

LadyCs

Not all memories are meant to be remembered
No no your right. He wasn't in his right mind when he made that desicion I think I mentioned that. But Griffith did know damn well what he was doing in that illusion when he basically forsake everyone. Even if he didn't when he was Femto he raped Caska just to torture her and Gatsu. So he's iffy. But I don't think Gatsu would ever do that no matter how much he says it sometimes. lol sorry I should have made pointless into monstrous (sp ><) but I'll go back and fix it maybe someday *shrugs*
 

Walter

Administrator
Staff member
Captain Napalm said:
I'm fairly certain Griffith wasn't in the right mind when he made that decision (if I remember correctly, he was also within an illusion created by the God Hand)... And I wouldn't call it pointless. If you're talking about becoming king, it's been his dream since he was a kid, the one thing he's always wanted, the one thing he's devoted every ounce of his energy towards. If you mean just sacrificing them in general... Well... He's literally a god among men now, LOL.

Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, I probably am, LOL.
Well, Griffith certainly received quite a one-sided presentation from the God Hand, but he still made the decision with a clear conscience. He weighed his options and came to a conclusion based on his own values. Of course, those values were formed on the backs of situations preordained by the Idea of Evil, but they were still his own.

Saying he wasn't in his "right mind" is going a little too far, as if he was under the influence of some drugs... Make no mistake, the weight of the Hawks' deaths are on his shoulders.

And his goal being pointless? Yeah, I just don't know about that ... :carcus: And don't forget, having his own kingdom is just the fulcrum of Griffith's dream. Remember the monologue in both volume 3 and volume 5, Griffith wanted to test the Universe's Golden Rule and discover his destiny, and why he was born. The kingdom is just the physical realization of that.
 
Walter said:
Well, Griffith certainly received quite a one-sided presentation from the God Hand, but he still made the decision with a clear conscience. He weighed his options and came to a conclusion based on his own values. Of course, those values were formed on the backs of situations preordained by the Idea of Evil, but they were still his own.

Saying he wasn't in his "right mind" is going a little too far, as if he was under the influence of some drugs... Make no mistake, the weight of the Hawks' deaths are on his shoulders.
Yeah, that's the part I was iffy on. Thank you for clearing it up for me, bro. You're the best. :)
 
If we consider what was said in the "lost episode" removed by Miura, when Griffith asked the Idea of Evil what it wanted from him, it explained that Griffith's desire was its own desire; "may you bring pain or salvation to mankind." Ultimately it all comes back to causality, which the Idea manipulates to control human destiny. The Idea "made" Griffith who he was by shaping the events in his life and giving him these goals.

I do not see Griffith turning against the very thing that gave him power with the only condition being to "be as he will." Griffith will serve the Idea's purposes by becoming king, leading armies, leaving behind death and destruction in his wake, etc. They mutually benefit each other. One thing we do know is that despite appearances, Griffith is actually the most self-serving, manipulative, and evil of people. When faced by evil and conspiring people during his life, Griffith was always shown to be far more ruthless and calculating in dealing with them. Once Ganishka is out of the picture, I'm sure that Griffith will prove to be far worse.
 
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