What Miura said about Guts/Goetz

argon

I love Gatts Fury
I was surprised when Miura said that someone told him that a knight named Goetz existed and that he had an iron arm too, and all the more surprised when he said that he started Berserk before knowing it.

I did a quick search on the internet and i found this :
Goetz (or Götz) von Berlichingen was a German knight who lost his right hand in 1504 in the Landshut battle and after that he was given an iron arm.
here is a small picture :


and here a big one :
http://www.regart.ch/lausanne/main/img/galerie_grosses/19.jpg

and another one :
http://www.hohenlohekreis.de/de/hohenlohekreis/francais/images/goetzhand.jpg

I think there are some similarities between this arm and Guts' one for the hand part, even if the arm part is totally different.

I didn't find any picture of Goetz (to check if he had his 2 eyes :))

Miura may have heard of that when he was young and now he doesn't remember, thus giving us some explanation of these similarities.
Or is it only a big coincidence (Guts/Goetz , iron arm,...)?

So what do you think about that ? :) :)
 

Walter

Administrator
Staff member
Miura mentions Goetz (pronounced GETTZ by Miura) in the fairly recent interview on DVD 4 of Berserk. Miura said he thought it was a strange coincidence.

Cool pics and info, thanks! Been a while since I saw stuff on this guy.
 
M

mercs

Guest
Götz Von Berlichingen

For those of you who haven't come across this before, I thought it would be pretty decent to share it with you!

In 16th Century Germany there lived a knight by the name of Götz Von Berlichingen who led a band of mercenary soldiers.

In the early 1500’s his right arm was blown off below the elbow by cannon fire during a battle to siege the city of Landshut.

Now here comes the tasty part!

Instead of retiring from battle, he continued to fight many wars over his lifetime wearing this:




Unfortunately I cannot submit a link to a particular article I found about this iron prosthetic arm, but the gist of it was that apparently it displayed such brilliant craftsmanship that it aided future scientist’s in the design of new prosthetic limbs.

Miura has stated in an interview that he created Guts before he became aware of the history of Götz Von Berlichingen. That is of course subject to debate, but none the less – If I ever lose an arm, I want one of those in an instant!!
 

Tristram

100% Germ Free Manure
Re: Götz Von Berlichingen

Old news. Thanks for the information anyways, it's been a while since I've read about it, and it's a better "first post" then I ever attempted to make.

edit: also, Goetz lost his arm in a dispute with a farmer, not from cannon fire.
 

Aazealh

そうはいかぬ
Staff member
Re: Götz Von Berlichingen

mercs said:
For those of you who haven't come across this before, I thought it would be pretty decent to share it with you!
Hi mercs, welcome to SK.net. Unfortunately we've all come across this before, as the numerous threads existing on the subject can testify. Please don't make new threads on old topics in the future (do a quick search before), especially if you take your information from wikipedia (seems to be the case) which originally took it from here among other places (although that specific article has been fixed recently apparently, all the better). Thanks.

To further demonstrate this I'll merge your thread with one made 3 years ago.

mercs said:
Miura has stated in an interview that he created Guts before he became aware of the history of Götz Von Berlichingen. That is of course subject to debate
What's subject to debate exactly? You're calling Miura a liar? :schierke: Don't be ridiculous. Besides it's not like it would even change anything for him, and stranger coincidences have happened. Here's an exact quote from him about it:

[quote author=Miura]"Well, it's funny that you mentioned it, but l've heard about this knight who helped a peasant revolution in Germany and the knight's name was Goetz. And he had an iron artificial arm. When I found out about it, I thought it was a strange coincidence. I don't know if he shot arrows from it. It was especially uncanny because I had already started Berserk. I wasn't really thinking of anybody at the time I created Guts."[/quote]
 
M

mercs

Guest
Re: What said Miura about Guts/Goetz

Thank you Aazealh for the warm welcome.

I must apologise to all members and administrators for not taking the time to search for existing threads like the one you have kindly merged my submission with. I was so intrigued by what I had stumbled upon that I just had to get it out of my system. Also I must note that the information I came across in regards to Götz Von Berlichingen was not from Wikipedia, however I did use the image of the iron prosthetic arm found on its pages.

I am in favour of the idea that Miura created the protagonist of his story without the knowledge of Götz Von Berlichingen, but what I consider ridiculous is the idea that his statement is in utter truth. It is not actual fact, it is down to opinion. Therefore it is subject to debate. I agree that it wouldn’t change a thing either way.

Thank you once again kind sir, I look forward to visiting this forum in the future.
 

Aazealh

そうはいかぬ
Staff member
mercs said:
I must apologise to all members and administrators for not taking the time to search for existing threads like the one you have kindly merged my submission with. I was so intrigued by what I had stumbled upon that I just had to get it out of my system.
No problem, it happens. :guts: I hope you'll enjoy your stay here.

mercs said:
Also I must note that the information I came across in regards to Götz Von Berlichingen was not from Wikipedia, however I did use the image of the iron prosthetic arm found on its pages.
I see, well their sources must relate in this case, some parts are very similar to the old wikipedia article. Not that it matters much.

mercs said:
I am in favour of the idea that Miura created the protagonist of his story without the knowledge of Götz Von Berlichingen, but what I consider ridiculous is the idea that his statement is in utter truth. It is not actual fact, it is down to opinion. Therefore it is subject to debate.
It's an actual fact that Miura stated several times he created the character before learning about the existence of Götz von Berlichingen. Therefore if you say this is debatable you are obligatorily assuming he is a liar, without anything to base your assumption on. So in other words, you would be contesting the fact that Miura (a most reliable source until proven otherwise) said he didn't know about Götz with the unfounded assumption that he based Guts on Götz von Berlichingen and lied about it without having any motive to do so.

Hence there is no debate, for there are no reasons to assume Miura would lie about something as trivial as this, it isn't controversial. :SK:
 
M

mercs

Guest
Re: What said Miura about Guts/Goetz

Indeed it is actual fact that Miura has stated several times that he created the character independently without knowledge of Götz, but just because he has done so doesn’t prove the truth. Don’t get me wrong I am in full favour of his statement, but technically it is down to opinion however trivial it may be.

Hahah the two of us bickering like old women enforces the fact that it is indeed debatable!

I must apologise once again to everyone on this forum for even bringing up such a silly possibility… and on a Berserk forum with my first post, the audacity!!

Hahah – Thanks again, I think I’m going to enjoy my visits here.
 

CnC

Ad Oculos
mercs said:
I must apologise once again to everyone on this forum for even bringing up such a silly possibility… and on a Berserk forum with my first post, the audacity!!
Unless this Gotz guy also had a cannon in that arm its hardly enough to say that since they both have a metal prosthetic one's a rip off the other.

To summarize: who cares?
 
M

mercs

Guest
Re: What said Miura about Guts/Goetz

I agree with your summary to the fullest extent.
 
Now that Guts has the Berserker armor, does he still have the left arm gauntlet part of the armor? or did he throw it away?

I'm wondering because in the first appearance of the Berserker armor, Grunbeld vs Guts, he had it, and fired his arm cannon in a really cool manner, but ever since then, Guts had his original cannon style back, in both the AOW statues and in the manga.

It doesn't make any difference apart from visual, but I personally really like the complete armor all together.
 

Aazealh

そうはいかぬ
Staff member
mercs said:
Indeed it is actual fact that Miura has stated several times that he created the character independently without knowledge of Götz, but just because he has done so doesn’t prove the truth.
Like I said, that would be saying a source of information that has proven to be very reliable in the past lied for no reason, while actually bringing on the topic on which he lied in an interview (illogical). And that's without having any reason to think he lied in the first place.

Instead of saying it might not be the truth, could you actually tell me why would anybody think it isn't the truth? What ground would this unlikely assumption be built on exactly?

mercs said:
Don’t get me wrong I am in full favour of his statement, but technically it is down to opinion however trivial it may be.
Everything is down to opinion as long as people are willing to say it is. There are people in this world saying man's origin is down to opinion, or that whether the earth revolves around the sun or not is down to opinion. The real question is "do you have something to back up your reasoning with?" If you contest what Miura says without having any argument (which is the case), sure it might be your opinion, but it would be an inane opinion. Thus not worth considering.

mercs said:
Hahah the two of us bickering like old women enforces the fact that it is indeed debatable!
It just enforces the fact that you're stubborn (can't beat me though) and insist on something while admittedly not believing in it nor having any way to prove its validity. The simple fact of contesting something doesn't make it debatable. Some people like to eat feces, that doesn't mean feces are good to eat. But that's "down to opinion".

EndLeSS8 said:
Now that Guts has the Berserker armor, does he still have the left arm gauntlet part of the armor? or did he throw it away?
He still has it of course.

EndLeSS8 said:
I'm wondering because in the first appearance of the Berserker armor, Grunbeld vs Guts, he had it, and fired his arm cannon in a really cool manner, but ever since then, Guts had his original cannon style back
He doesn't wear the sleeves (either of them) nor the helmet while travelling, but when he fought against the Makara on the beach they came out of the armor and covered his arms (and the helmet his head).
 
M

mercs

Guest
Re: What said Miura about Guts/Goetz

Miura has stated that he created his character without the knowledge of Götz. No one can scientifically prove or disprove that this is truth, regardless of ones opinion, as no one knows the real fact except Miura himself. That is fact.

Why would someone think that this is not the truth? The reason is reflected in the very essence of this thread. Because there exists in history, previous to the creation of Berserk, a knight by the name of Götz, who led a band of mercenaries and to top it off one of his arms had been replaced by an iron prosthesis. Once again, no one can prove or disprove whether this was inspiration to Miura.

It has scientifically been proven that the earth revolves around the sun. As for the origins of man, I simply have no idea. What I do know is that my reasoning is unbiased because I am also a great fan of Berserk, and as far as my opinion stands; I am highly in favour of Miura’s statement.

It is your opinion, that my opinion is inane.

This very topic is a debate. We are both involved in a discussion where our reasons are being advanced, yours being against my proposition, mine being for and against. Therefore it is quite clear to me that you are unbiased on this matter.

Also I must note for the record that I certainly do not like to eat faecal matter, far too nutty for my liking!

Thank you and good day to you sir.
 

Walter

Administrator
Staff member
Ok, mercs. Let's say Miura's a liar. A cold-hearted, vicious liar who shamelessly promotes that his character isn't based on GOTZ, the man whose arm was shot off by a farmer's cannon. Miura constantly struggles to keep the masses from uprooting the ugly truth: that he's a sham, a fake, a crook, a two-timer, a no-good-dirty-rotten-scoundrel, a LIAR!

What would be the point? What does Miura gain from this sickeningly complex ruse? International fame, nay INFAMY?

There's a little argument technique called "Occam's Razor" from before the Renaissance. Scholars use it for things like disproving Shakespeare's other "alleged" identities (Deveere, Marlowe). It goes a little something like this: make no more assumptions than necessary. Often, the simplest theory is the correct one.

That being said, Miura is not lying.
 

Aazealh

そうはいかぬ
Staff member
mercs said:
Miura has stated that he created his character without the knowledge of Götz. No one can scientifically prove or disprove that this is truth, regardless of ones opinion, as no one knows the real fact except Miura himself. That is fact.
And Miura, the one who knows the truth and "the real fact," stated that it wasn't the case. That is also fact. He is therefore the ultimate source of information on the subject. I'll ask you again, one last time: could you please cite any serious element that could justify that anyone would doubt what the person who knows the real fact says? Do you know of any fact that could disprove his statement?

The answer is of course no, that's why you aren't addressing the question and are instead focusing on the usual "everything is possible in my opinion's point of view blah blah blah." You should understand by now that stating what is a fact or not isn't proving your point, and certainly not giving it any credibility. The same applies to so-called "scientifical proofs" which really don't mean anything in the context.

mercs said:
The reason why someone might think that this is not the truth is reflected in the very essence of this thread.
How so? This thread was created by someone ignoring what Miura had said on the subject. His interrogation was answered and the thread stayed inactive until you posted.

mercs said:
Because there exists in history, previous to the creation of Berserk, a knight by the name of Götz, who led a band of mercenaries and to top it off one of his arms had been replaced by an iron prosthesis.
That's not a valid reason to doubt what Miura said. This merely makes your assumption possible, it doesn't endow it with any quality whatsoever, even in the very Berserk-like aspect you present things (as there are far more differences between Guts and Götz than actual vague relations).

mercs said:
It has scientifically been proven that the earth revolves around the sun. As for the origins of man, I simply have no idea.
I'm glad you followed me on this. Well guess what, scientifical proofs are down to opinion. After all, the ones that know "the real facts" are scientists, and they might be lying about it. See where your logic goes?

mercs said:
It is your opinion, that my opinion is inane.
I didn't say so, you might want to re-read my post. To believe that Miura is a liar is inane, stupid even. And very disrespectful.

mercs said:
This very topic is a debate. We are both involved in a discussion where our reasons are being advanced, yours being against my proposition, mine being for and against.
No, this topic isn't a debate, nor is debatable. It isn't simply because you do not have any reason nor argument to support your beloved opinion. In short, your opinion is that Miura could perhaps be a liar for some unknown reason because no scientist proved it impossible. Good for you really, now maybe we can move on?
 

CnC

Ad Oculos
Take your pick of responses:

A) Like Walter stated, there really isn't a reason for Miura to cover up anything here. If he said tomorrow that Gotz was the inspiration, it still changes nothing. Also, I don't theres really a strong comparison here. Or at least, not much stronger than any person who has a prosthetic arm.

B) Who cares? stop talking
 
M

mercs

Guest
Re: What said Miura about Guts/Goetz

Walter!? Good heavens man, just when I was beginning to gain confindence and respect for myself in this terrible, terrible world! Heheh.

Methodological Reductionism… given two equally predictive theories, choose the simpler. Weighing up rival hypothesis to conclude which one is preferred. Yet Ockham's Razor does not scientifically prove fact.

So your assumption that Miura is not lying, is neither wrong or correct. It is your opinion.
 

Walter

Administrator
Staff member
mercs said:
Methodological Reductionism… given two equally predictive theories, choose the simpler. Weighing up rival hypothesis to conclude which one is preferred. Yet Ockham's Razor does not scientifically prove fact.
Hey good point. Now, why don't you follow up on all this bullshit and give Miura a call for us, and ask him yourself? And please stop posting in this thread (that is, until you get your first-hand evidence).

Thanks in advance.
 
M

mercs

Guest
Re: What said Miura about Guts/Goetz

Good heavens gentlemen. Clearly we disagree. I apologise if I got the wrong end of the stick so to speak in regards to anything you might have said.

I repeat again, I am highly in favour of Miura creating Guts independantly.

Aazealh, you’ve put me at I loss there and I agree, so I will void my statement about the earth revolving round the sun being scientific proof. I agree that is also down to opinion unless one has seen the evidence for themselves, but in turn that enforces what I have been saying all this time. You cannot prove that Miura is telling the truth because you have no evidence. His statement does not prove that, whether you want to believe that or not. Scientific proof on the matter… you have none. You do you have your opinion though, and you are entitled to it.

Caww hahah, I really have hit a soft spot for you guys aye!

Calling Miura myself wouldn't solve anything, whatever he might tell me cannot be scientifically proven.

Not a problem at all Walter, I did not realise that my line "This is of course subject to debate" would trigger off such an exciting turn of events. I am certainly not offended, and I hope yourself and Aazealh aren't either. I will discontinue posting in this thread.

If I may ask, am I welcome to use this forum in the future chaps?
 

Aazealh

そうはいかぬ
Staff member
mercs said:
I repeat again, I am highly in favour of Miura creating Guts independantly.
That isn't the question really. Though since you agreed, there wasn't a need to post that much about it (especially since it didn't really add anything to what we all knew beforehand).

mercs said:
You cannot prove that Miura is telling the truth because you have no evidence. His statement does not prove that, whether you want to believe that or not. Scientific proof on the matter… you have none.
I think you're still missing the point. There's no need to scientifically prove anything.

mercs said:
Calling Miura myself wouldn't solve anything, whatever he might tell me cannot be scientifically proven.
Yeah, and I can't scientifically prove that you aren't really a mass of slugs that developed psychic abilities and are using an old disaffected Royal Air Force experimental computer to send messages over the Internet. See the point? There is none.

mercs said:
If I may ask, am welcome to use this forum in the future chaps?
Why wouldn't you be? Feel free to post anytime. :serpico:
 
M

mercs

Guest
I don’t think there is anything missing here. I believe we have all come to our conclusion and have realised our points.

Yahah nice one Walter, I like it. I'll send a Bible to you as soon as possible. Is Fed-Ex OK?

Thanks once again, I look forward to posting here in the future.

Oh and P.S – You’re not going to believe this... but I am in fact a mass of slugs that have developed psychic abilities, and funnily enough I am using an old experimental Royal Air Force computer to transmit these messages over the internet.

Good Day
 

Aazealh

そうはいかぬ
Staff member
mercs said:
I don’t think there is anything missing here. I believe we have all come to our conclusion and have realised our points.


"You WILL tell me the truth, Miura! Your brain can't lie!! The real proof is in there, it can't escape SCIENCE!"

mercs said:
I am in fact a mass of slugs [...]
I knew it.
 
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