Will Guts surpass Griffith again?

[asmer]

Responsible for that? Griffith slept with Charlotte, that's what's responsible of the Hawks' downfall...

I meant they may have took part in chasing down the remain of the BoH. They may even at that time have been commanding the squads that shot down the defenseless Hawks, near Wyndham, just after Griffith's arrrest.

And the "king"? What king? Federico Vandimion isn't a king...

Oops... Typing too fast...

No, he can't, like SK told them, and the beach incident proved it. They'll have to reach Elfhelm and have Guts cured to hope to be able to control it.

Control it weren't good chosen words, what I meant is that due to Schierke's help, he wasn't engulfed in the flow of Od. Without her, I guess it would already be to late for Guts to be saved...

 

[Aazealh]

I meant they may have took part in chasing down the remain of the BoH. They may even at that time have been commanding the squads that shot down the defenseless Hawks, near Wyndham, just after Griffith's arrrest.

Well, almost all of Midland's armies took part in chasing the Hawks, they were obeying orders like anybody else... I don't think that's very important, and Guts hasn't manifested any animosity toward them regarding these events.

Control it weren't good chosen words, what I meant is that due to Schierke's help, he wasn't engulfed in the flow of Od. Without her, I guess it would already be to late for Guts to be saved...

Flora's talisman is what protects Guts, Schierke just got him back to reality twice, but she doesn't shield him from the armor's Od... That's why he has a hard time controlling himself when fighting. If he wasn't subject to the armor's Od, he wouldn't have any problem in the first place, but he also wouldn't benefit from the armor's properties.

 

[asmer]

Well, almost all of Midland's armies took part in chasing the Hawks, they were obeying orders like anybody else... I don't think that's very important, and Guts hasn't manifested any animosity toward them regarding these events.

OK, he didn't specifically express any animosity towards Midland's Nobles, but I'm pretty sure everything related to this country is synonymous of bad memories for Guts. Furthermore, he doesn't seem to like Nobles a lot, wherever they come from.

Flora's talisman is what protects Guts, Schierke just got him back to reality twice, but she doesn't shield him from the armor's Od... That's why he has a hard time controlling himself when fighting. If he wasn't subject to the armor's Od, he wouldn't have any problem in the first place, but he also wouldn't benefit from the armor's properties.

I know Schierke can't diminish the Armor's power. But with her help, he is able not to lose himself in the Armor's Od, that's why he probably isn't lost already. In that sense, Schierke's help was useful in "controlling" the Armor's bad effects, at least IMO.

 

[Aazealh]

OK, he didn't specifically express any animosity towards Midland's Nobles, but I'm pretty sure everything related to this country is synonymous of bad memories for Guts.

He lived in Midland all his life, and he's pretty much only got bad memories anyway, so that's not exactly an astounding point IMO, especially since it doesn't relate to nobles in particular.

Furthermore, he doesn't seem to like Nobles a lot, wherever they come from.

Yeah, he doesn't like a lot of people, that doesn't mean much either. Do you think that if these guys were commoners he'd care more? He only helped the villagers in Enoch because Flora made a deal with him, he had refused at first. And during the Incarnation ceremony, he showed disdain and contempt to the people massed below. He only valued strength and the will to survive during his youth and until now, though he's softening these days.

I know Schierke can't diminish the Armor's power. But with her help, he is able not to lose himself in the Armor's Od, that's why he probably isn't lost already.

I'll repeat myself: Guts loses himself in the armor's Od. He does, and that's why he loses control over it. He entrusts himself to the flow. Now, what prevents Guts' ego from being destroyed by that flow is Flora's talisman. Schierke's role in saving Guts is that she awakens him (shakes him out of the flow's influence, she talks to him in volume 27, gets him out of the water in volume 28) and brings him back to reality.

In that sense, Schierke's help was useful in "controlling" the Armor's bad effects, at least IMO.

Schierke just allowed Guts to get back to his senses, and she couldn't even do it on the beach before the Moonlight Child intervened. Call it controlling bad effects if you want, but that doesn't seem to be a very appropriate way of wording her desperate attempts to me. If it had only been up to her on the beach, they'd all be dead.

 

[asmer]

Do you think that if these guys were commoners he'd care more?

No, that's right. I know he doesn't really like anybody, even if he for sure has softened a lot, in the last Volumes... In conclusion, he probably won't take the lead of any army, I guess...

that doesn't seem to be a very appropriate way of wording

True... Seems my English isn't perfect...
Let's say at least that Schierke's help was useful, but that she is no match for the Armor's power... That's true.

 

[xbigvmanx]

Do you think Guts is a player or a pawn?

Bear with me guys i know the prophecy only focuses on Griffith but you got to wonder if there's another hidden prophecy out there that actually talks about our boy Guts. I know there's no evidence i am just purely speculating. But consider the facts that a guy like Guts who comes into this world from a corpse (his parents are still a mystery), he was crucial figure in bringing the hawks to its Golden Age so quickly; amazing luck and will to survive against many encounters with death; he's obviously superhuman since no ordinary human could what he can do and whenever he touches other people's lives he changes them for the better or for the worse kind of like a tav'ern (if you read Robert Jordan's wheel of time series you'll know what i am refering to) someone who can influence the fate of other into his own design. I am not saying its true or fact cause i have no proof just speculation imho. What I do think is fact is that Guts is not only a very special character he is a major player whether he likes it or not. Griffith thinks Guts is insignificant and I think that will be his downfall imho

 

[Aazealh]

Re: Do you think Guts is a player or a pawn?

What I do think is fact is that Guts is not only a very special character he is a major player whether he likes it or not. Griffith thinks Guts is insignificant and I think that will be his downfall imho

Haha, of course. Guts is the underdog in the series, but he's still the hero, and what hero! He is a major player, and he's everything but insignificant to me. In the end, he's the one that will make all the difference, I think that's saying enough.

 

[xbigvmanx]

You know Aaz its amazing how much Guts changed over the years. Thats why i love japanese comics b/c they have a great sense of character development. I was just at okinawa earlier and i bought a ton of Berserk books since it was only 5 bucks perbook at the book shop here. I was able to buy volume 14-25, 29 but i am missing 22 and 26-28. I was trying to look for the PS2 game here too but no one in the store knew what i was talking about. O well I have one more trip back there.

 

[Aazealh]

You know Aaz its amazing how much Guts changed over the years.

Yep, and even the other characters evolve a lot too, Farnese being my favorite example. It's really a great part of Berserk, the change in the characters but also periods. That's one of the reasons I'll follow it until the very end. To quote Young Animal: "fantazi komikku, saikô! Beruseruku!" (Berserk, the best fantasy comic)

I was just at okinawa earlier and i bought a ton of Berserk books since it was only 5 bucks perbook at the book shop here.

Hehe, congratulations, and yeah, the volumes are cheap (more so on import websites, without the Japan only tax).

 

[xechnao]

If you noticed where the series is going Guts will eventually surpass Griffith.

The first time Guts and Griffith met, Griffith owned him physically. As time passed Guts practiced more and more, so some time later Guts owned Griffith.
In the physical sector there is not much more than this, as Guts allready proved that he could be the best one.
Now, Griffith is a super being. How could Guts surpass him now?

Another sector we have seen Guts improve is the tactical-strategical one. Fighting a couple of fights with Serpico, top-notch tactician, Guts surpassed Serpico's edge in the end.
But this is not enough for surpassing super Griffith yet.

What Guts has to do now is to master mystical-magical or divine abilities so to confront with Griffith's super ones. Besides, Griffith right now can only be harmed by magic or so. Some episodes back, Guts, got a new magical toy, the berserker armour. He still practices with it, so he is in the right path.


PS: let's hope though he doesn't end up studying to channel magic death rays and stuff like that

 

[Aazealh]

let's hope though he doesn't end up studying to channel magic death rays and stuff like that

Don't worry, I don't think that's likely to happen. I also don't think the Berserk's armor is enough to defeat Griffith in the current state of things though, his power is beyond that. Wait & See as always.

 

[Smith]

Don't worry, I don't think that's likely to happen. I also don't think the Berserk's armor is enough to defeat Griffith in the current state of things though, his power is beyond that. Wait & See as always.

But its the only thing that can defeat Griffith... I cant think of anything more powerful than that...

 

[Aazealh]

But its the only thing that can defeat Griffith... I cant think of anything more powerful than that...

Because you can't think of something doesn't mean it doesn't exist or won't happen, Smith. It doesn't even have to be a matter of "power". And until now, the Berserk's armor didn't look like it could allow Guts to defeat Griffith, so don't assume too much.

 

[Michael]

I don´t think that happens - I.E. Guts will be anytime in future (full on his own even with help of Armor) capable of defeating Griffith and I mean not sending him back between his fellow Arch-angels, but sending him right into the vortex

But its the only thing that can defeat Griffith... I cant think of anything more powerful than that...

Nah, don´t be pessimistic like that There are options as I see it.

1. Guts might be able to kill Griffith - in case he will receive direct (or indirect see below) help of divine powers (be it Hanafubuku or someone else).

2. Godhand members have (from their essence) some weakness, that our anti-hero (or Ganishka, Skullknight?) will use. I´m tempted to think, that´s the main reason why Flora was assaulted (not, because she was "powerful", but would her knowledge leak out to wrong people, it seriously could hinder Griffith´s plans).

3. What is easily gain, can be easily taken away... it was nowhere said, that Godhand is anything more than a tool to Idea. It´s not hard to realize, that Idea itself can at some point discard Grif according to its plan

To repeat myself - no, I doubt, that Miura will (or would even try) find way how could Guts beat Grif in one-on-one match without help "from above". I hope it wasn´t too confusing to read (bear in mind it´s all full speculation ), making esseys like that makes my head hurt.

 

[Aazealh]

divine powers (be it Hanafubuku or someone else).

Well, the Hanafubuku Ô isn't a god you know.

Godhand members have (from their essence) some weakness, that our anti-hero (or Ganishka, Skullknight?) will use. I´m tempted to think, that´s the main reason why Flora was assaulted (not, because she was "powerful", but would her knowledge leak out to wrong people, it seriously could hinder Griffith´s plans).

Hmm, but Flora was powerful. She was just extremely old and about to die, we actually don't even know whether she died because of the fire or just from old age... When she showed up in her astral form, she was able to stop Grunberd without even doing anything. If she had been in her prime, I think the apostle squad sent to her place would have been fried without a lot of difficulty.

And about God Hand members having a weakness in essence... Flora could have told Guts so, she had enough time to and he even asked about them. And if she knew it, Skull Knight definitely knows it too, that makes your theory rather unlikely IMHO.

What is easily gain, can be easily taken away... it was nowhere said, that Godhand is anything more than a tool to Idea. It´s not hard to realize, that Idea itself can at some point discard Grif according to its plan

It's true, it's a possibility. I doubt it to happen however, I feel it would be some kind of waste to Idea.

 

[EUIX]

Here is how I see things,

I don't see Guts killing Griffith in his current state. What I do see is how Miura will show that Griffith's war against the Kushan's will be a crusade, compared to the Kushans the ordinary people will see the Hawks as saviours. In the end Guts will see the validity of revenge questioned as Griffith establishes a new stability and prosperity out a century of war with Tudor and Kushan brutality. Then the story might go on from there.

I have always imagined in the final confrontation of Guts and Griffith, Griffith will no longer be so powerful but have whittled into a wasted shell and when Guts sees him he will have to question the nature of his vengeance and will be physically overpowering in relation to him but be twisted in the mental decision to kill him. As Guts journeys on his thrist for revenge slowly whittles away until in the end he is finding himself incapable of producing the same hatred for Griffith, especially considering the new family he begins to surround himself with.

 

[Michael]

Well, the Hanafubuku Ô isn't a god you know.

I´m aware of that. Term divine was meant to describe someone/something with powers clearly out of human comprehesion. My bad 

Hmm, but Flora was powerful.

That wasn´t at question at all  we don´t know, if Femto wasn´t aware of her health condition at the time (it would put whole assault in question, don´t you think?).

And about God Hand members having a weakness in essence... Flora could have told Guts so, she had enough time to and he even asked about them.

Again, there is nothing given. She could have her reasons, even her friend - Skullknight isn´t exactly telling our hero everything, altough it could open new options to Guts and party.

It's true, it's a possibility. I doubt it to happen however, I feel it would be some kind of waste to Idea.

That´s your opinion Aazealh. I doubt Idea gets sentimental like that  in episode 83(?) it even proposed, the possibility of humanity demise in future and wasn´t affected at all.

I don't see Guts killing Griffith in his current state. What I do see is how Miura will show that Griffith's war against the Kushan's will be a crusade, compared to the Kushans the ordinary people will see the Hawks as saviours. In the end Guts will see the validity of revenge questioned as Griffith establishes a new stability and prosperity out a century of war with Tudor and Kushan brutality. Then the story might go on from there.

Interesting EUIX, but you are completely disregarding two facts: Guts isn´t a forgiving person, life taught him otherwise (Donovan anyone?). Nor does he really cares, who is oppressing normal people (be it Kushans, nobility or Church).

 

[Aazealh]

we don´t know, if Femto wasn´t aware of her health condition at the time (it would put whole assault in question, don´t you think?).

Again, there is nothing given. She could have her reasons, even her friend - Skullknight isn´t exactly telling our hero everything, altough it could open new options to Guts and party.

Well I think it's pretty evident, really. If Griffith knew she was about to die, why send a squad to kill her? And Zodd and the others didn't know Guts would be there. What you say works against your belief IMO. Plus they'd need to kill Skull Knight, wouldn't they? The fact that he's not telling Guts now doesn't mean he won't tell him later, in which case killing Flora or not wouldn't change anything. And even after her death, Flora could have talked to Guts while in her astral form, if it was so important that apostles had come for her, why not say it then? I'm not convinced.

That´s your opinion Aazealh. I doubt Idea gets sentimental like that

Who talked about being sentimental? It would be a waste because it spent centuries to make Griffith's life into what it was, because God Hand members can't be created every other day and incarnations happen every 1000 years, and because in general it must have been a "big" effort even for Idea to set things as they are for Griffith. So I don't think it would discard such a precious pawn if it didn't have a really good reason. But hey, maybe it will have a good reason, we just don't know about it at the moment.

Guts isn´t a forgiving person, life taught him otherwise (Donovan anyone?).

I think there's more complexity to Guts than that, it was hinted several times that his feelings for Griffith were still somehow ambiguous for example, so I wouldn't be so categoric about the possible developments of the story in that regard.

 

[Michael]

Well I think it's pretty evident, really. If Griffith knew she was about to die, why send a squad to kill her? And Zodd and the others didn't know Guts would be there. What you say works against your belief IMO. Plus they'd need to kill Skull Knight, wouldn't they?

You´ve got me on this one.

Who talked about being sentimental? It would be a waste because it spent centuries to make Griffith's life into what it was, because God Hand members can't be created every other day and incarnations happen every 1000 years, and because in general it must have been a "big" effort even for Idea to set things as they are for Griffith.

Well, this is really speculation at its best, but this option seems probadle to me (not to mention it would be a fitting end for Femto), Idea could very well reveal, that his pawn was just a part of greater scheme. Like you said, it is still too early in the story to predict future development.

 

[Kart]

I think in the discussion of how gutts will kill griffith, you all forget that we dont really know if that will happen. It's a nice idea, and im sure it would be awesome, but It wouldn't feel right, at least from the story so far. But Im sure there will be many more big revelations, i doubt in the form of a prophecy. But there will be alot of things in the future that will raise these types of questions, the only answer is, watch and see.

 

[Aazealh]

I think in the discussion of how Guts will kill griffith, you all forget that we dont really know if that will happen.

Well, that's in the thread's title so I don't see how people could forget it. I think it's just that the fans generally think that Guts will end up killing Griffith. Now it's indeed not sure at all, and EUIX's post gave another alternative where it wouldn't happen for example.

 

[EUIX]

Guts has undergone tremendous character development throughout the series. He is more "mellow" then he used to be, so anything is possible. If anything I think this will give a much more balanced view of Griffith, because despite all his evil if he brings all the domains of Midland under a stable and prosperous rule then Miura will have effectively injected many layers of grey into the morality of Berserk, especially that of Guts' revenge.

I have always viewed Berserk despite it being a Fantasy/Horror/Action/xxxx as deeply humanist and you can see in certain parts of the Manga Guts questions his own quest for vengeance.