Would Guts survive the Eclipse with his current equipment?

[Aazealh]

If you ask me, no doubt his armor would help him survive longer during an eclipse.

The thread refers to the Occultation ceremony during which he was branded specifically, and he's not likely to ever be in another one anyway. I think it's granted that the armor would help him last longer, but the problem is actual complete survival, going by DemiAngel's postulate.

As to doing damage if any to the god hands, I think it is possible because we did get a hint as to his Dragon Slayer is now infused with some mysterious powers from slaying so many apostles thus far.

Yeah, I think everyone knows this. It was demonstrated when Guts managed to repulse Slan out of the Qliphoth, and later on when he injured Ganishka and dispelled his giant mist form.

Think back when the little witch was handing out magical weapons and armors to Serpico and the rest. When she tried to give him an axe, he replied he didn't need any and he only needed his sword which had some black mist flowing along side it. That maybe the key to striking and injuring god hands if the occasion ever comes?

To be exact, he said he needed to fight with something he was familiar with, and only Schierke could see the sword's dark aura. Guts learned about it in the Qliphoth. Anyway, all of this is nice, but it doesn't mean that Guts could defeat the whole God Hand together or even one of its members at this point. We don't know if the DS has that potency yet, and he would need to be able to strike them first while evading or sustaining damage from their incredible powers.

 

[nfries88]

I'm hardly a battle tactition, but I'm pretty sure that the only reason that Guts is able to hold is own against Zodd and the only reason that he was able to wound Grunbeld is because of the fact that he was facing them one-on-one. If Zodd or Grunbeld were to have used lesser apostles to limit Guts' mobility and to distract him from the real fight, it's likely that Guts would've stood no chance against them. Of course, it goes against Zodd's warrior pride (and likely Grunbeld's as well) to do such a thing, so it wouldn't be likely to happen. However, consider the fact that there are many great apostles whom may be more likely to do do such, and it doesn't look good for Guts.

As you can guess, I don't think he'd survive without outside assistance (be it Skull Knight, Schierke, or someone else). I'm even going to say that it was probably by a stroke of luck that Guts was able to survive as long as he had the first time; and that if it weren't for the fact that he had prior experience with two Apostles beforehand he likely would've been defeated by the first group that attacked him.

Again, I'm no battle tactics wizard, so don't take this post as serious as it may sound.

 

[Walter]

Well, obviously against an Apostle Army, Guts would have a rough time going solo. No question there. But if there's one thing I've learned from WoW (which isn't much), it's that no class is better suited to take on multiple enemies than a Berserker warrior

 

[Aazealh]

I'm hardly a battle tactition, but I'm pretty sure that the only reason that Guts is able to hold is own against Zodd and the only reason that he was able to wound Grunbeld is because of the fact that he was facing them one-on-one. If Zodd or Grunbeld were to have used lesser apostles to limit Guts' mobility and to distract him from the real fight, it's likely that Guts would've stood no chance against them.

Well, Guts did face lesser apostles during his fight against Grunberd.

I'm even going to say that it was probably by a stroke of luck that Guts was able to survive as long as he had the first time; and that if it weren't for the fact that he had prior experience with two Apostles beforehand he likely would've been defeated by the first group that attacked him.

Now honestly I think that is unfair. It was no stroke of luck, Guts is just inhumanly good.

 

[Okin]

But if there's one thing I've learned from WoW (which isn't much), it's that no class is better suited to take on multiple enemies than a Berserker warrior

*pst Hellooo...Mages? DUH!

Speaking of assistance from Schierke, how effective do you think her large scale spells would be against apostles? Would an apostle just shrug it off like when Wyald was being pelted by a storm of arrows? I've noticed that Guts group has never actually fought apostles, only Guts has. Serpico and Isidro didn't seriously fight any of the apostles that were attacking Flora's castle did they? Is Guts really the only one capable of defeating apostles? Maybe its the Dragonslayer? Before he got it, he wasn't able to kill Wyald either, but he also got stronger after that. Sorry, off topic.

 

[Aazealh]

Speaking of assistance from Schierke, how effective do you think her large scale spells would be against apostles?

Depends what spell. The protection of the four elemental kings would bother them and maybe superficially damage them, but they'd still be able to penetrate it, like Ganishka's familiars did. After that, it's a case-by-case thing. The Blaze Wheel could definitely do some serious damage if it frontally hit an apostle for example.

Serpico and Isidro didn't seriously fight any of the apostles that were attacking Flora's castle did they?

They held off some weak apostles for a while, but they weren't very successful at it.

Is Guts really the only one capable of defeating apostles? Maybe its the Dragonslayer? Before he got it, he wasn't able to kill Wyald either, but he also got stronger after that.

Guts is exceptionally strong, that's why he can kill apostles when it's so difficult. However it's not something only he can do and it's not directly related to the Dragon Slayer either (SK kills apostles, apostles kill each other, Casca apparently killed one during the Occultation ceremony, etc.). By that I mean that the DS is an incredible weapon and that it's adapted to slaying apostles, but that another weapon could potentially harm and kill apostles as well. And while Guts didn't truly kill Wyald at the time, he still mortally wounded him and left him for dead. Apostles are just extremely tough, that's why it's so hard to kill them, and takes a fighter as strong and skilled as Guts.

 

[nfries88]

Well, Guts did face lesser apostles during his fight against Grunberd.

I may need to re-read, but I don't seem to remember any lesser apostles coming at him while they were actually fighting. Could just be remembering incorrectly though, as it's been awhile since I've read that part of the manga, so I'll take your word on it.

Now honestly I think that is unfair. It was no stroke of luck, Guts is just inhumanly good.

Guts is inhumanly good and there's no denying that. I just doubt that he'd have survived as long as he had if not for his experience with Wyald, though he did in the anime so perhaps I should shut up.

 

[Aazealh]

I may need to re-read, but I don't seem to remember any lesser apostles coming at him while they were actually fighting. Could just be remembering incorrectly though, as it's been awhile since I've read that part of the manga, so I'll take your word on it.

Guts was facing Grunberd after giving his face a crack when four apostles attacked him from behind. He killed them all but was wounded in the process.

Guts is inhumanly good and there's no denying that. I just doubt that he'd have survived as long as he had if not for his experience with Wyald, though he did in the anime so perhaps I should shut up.

The animated series has no value whatsoever. About his experience, we can't know for sure, but his experience with Wyald surely helped him a lot. Yet I wouldn't say that he'd have been instantly defeated without it. Besides, if we start substracting from his fighting experience and skills, then it's not really the same character/story anymore, is it?

 

[nfries88]

Guts was facing Grunberd after giving his face a crack when four apostles attacked him from behind. He killed them all but was wounded in the process.

Okay then, my memory failed me.

The animated series has no value whatsoever. About his experience, we can't know for sure, but his experience with Wyald surely helped him a lot. Yet I wouldn't say that he'd have been instantly defeated without it. Besides, if we start substracting from his fighting experience and skills, then it's not really the same character/story anymore, is it?

This is true.

 

[Roidrage]

Greetings, and welcome to SK.net.

But it isn't sure at all that SK was transformed into something else by the Berserk's armor. The most we know about it comes from Schierke and simply states that the previous owner died wearing it (and it's not first-hand knowledge, so not fully reliable).

What? Why wouldn't it mean anything, according to you?

And got pretty badly wounded in the process. I'm not sure what your point is here, aside from repeating previously stated facts.

1. All true and thats why I clearly stated that the origins of SK would surely answer the legitimacy in my spontaneous speculations. Also you forgot to mention what Zodd says to SK when they are battling outside of Floras Mansion and He sees Guts wearing the Berserk armour: .." That's...My dear Nemesis ( don't know if it's the correct translation ), Do you plan on making him walk the same path as you? To follow your footsteps down the path of hell? " - whatever that implies.

2. Well, since we haven't seen any actual combat between the Makara and any of the apostles the strength ratio isn't established here and therefore hard to use as an indicator of how well Guts would do in the eclipse with his current equipment. It´s far easier, for me at least, to use Guts previous battles with the apostles as an indicator of his survival capacity.

3. I only choose to interpret them differently - thats all. Coming in to the fight He was already badly wounded by Slan in their previous encounter, yet the powers of the armour helped him to trash the lesser apostles easily and getting the best in their fight with Grunbeld.

Maybe the cursed magical powers of the armour finally found its host in Guts to be unleashed in a never before seen fury. Somehow all the Small hints by Miura, when Guts goes of in his berserk rage, always seem to remind me of Nietzsche and his famous quote: " He who fights with monsters might take care lest he thereby become a monster ". Furthermore Miuras inspiration from certain aspects of viking mythology makes me speculate even further in that direction. When Ragnarök - the final battle - occurs Fenrisulven will shatter its magical rope and swallow people, the god Oden and the Sun. In volume 33ep290 pages 02-08 manifest that same reasoning and the symbolism is there for interpretation. Therefore I speculate that a cataclysmic event such as the Eclipse would unleash the true power of berserk armour and Guts wouldn't remain human anymore, but he would survive and smash all the puny apostles into pieces. Then he would do the same to the God Hand ha ha

 

[Aazealh]

All true and thats why I clearly stated that the origins of SK would surely answer the legitimacy in my spontaneous speculations. Also you forgot to mention what Zodd says to SK when they are battling outside of Floras Mansion

Well then I can already give you the answer: yes he would most probably remain human. At worst he'd die, but it seems quite unlikely to me that the armor would transform him into something else right on the spot. It just doesn't seem to be how it functions. Also I didn't forget to mention Zodd's words, it's just that they weren't particularly relevant with this point.

Well, since we haven't seen any actual combat between the Makara and any of the apostles the strength ratio isn't established here and therefore hard to use as an indicator of how well Guts would do in the eclipse with his current equipment. It´s far easier, for me at least, to use Guts previous battles with the apostles as an indicator of his survival capacity.

But we've seen Guts fight both, and we know how strong they are. Strong, slow and stupid. Inferior to apostles, but a melee with many of them isn't that different from what Guts experienced during the Eclipse. Discarding it seems preposterous, when individual experiences with apostles aren't representative of what the Eclipse was like at all.

I only choose to interpret them differently - thats all. Coming in to the fight He was already badly wounded by Slan in their previous encounter, yet the powers of the armour helped him to trash the lesser apostles easily and getting the best in their fight with Grunbeld.

But he didn't trash them easily without a cost. He killed them quickly, that's for sure, but he was badly wounded in the process (ribcage badly broken). That's the whole point. And Slan's wound doesn't matter much since the armor made Guts ignore it, just like it made him ignore the other wounds he received during the fight at Flora's mansion. You see, the armor makes its wearer reckless, and that means he'll get wounded more just because he attacks relentlessly and without caring about his own health. That results in making more damage, but receiving more damage too. And in the Eclipse with hundreds of apostles present, that would be a losing tactic. He would just fight on and on, getting wounded and not caring, until death. And death would come quickly enough.

Maybe the cursed magical powers of the armour finally found its host in Guts to be unleashed in a never before seen fury.

But that isn't really how the armor works as far as we know (from what we've seen of it and what SK and Schierke have told Guts about it). Its Od fuels the wearer's rage and such and makes him lose control of himself, fighting in a true berserk state, possibly to his fullest capacity. Yet, it's still the wearer that counts in the end, it isn't as if the Berserk's armor granted power at whim and the chosen one would receive an ungoldly amount of it or anything like that.

Furthermore Miuras inspiration from certain aspects of viking mythology makes me speculate even further in that direction. When Ragnarök - the final battle - occurs Fenrisulven will shatter its magical rope and swallow people, the god Oden and the Sun. In volume 33ep290 pages 02-08 manifest that same reasoning and the symbolism is there for interpretation.

The symbolism may be there but that seems to be a very thin connexion to me. The Beast only jumps at the Hawk, to call that an inspiration from the Ragnarök is reaching too far IMHO.

Therefore I speculate that a cataclysmic event such as the Eclipse would unleash the true power of berserk armour and Guts wouldn't remain human anymore, but he would survive and smash all the puny apostles into pieces. Then he would do the same to the God Hand ha ha

Well, alright, but that's a completely baseless speculation that goes against what we know of the armor.