Would the old Hawks be able to stand any chance against the Kushans?

[Aazealh]

but, i still think that the apostles will fight him

Apostles will fight Ganishka? Why? And do you remember how the Daka are created? A mass of apostles sewn together is used. Looks like these didn't do very well against the Emperor of Terror.

i wonder, if grifith werent the chosen one...were there be someone else who'd rise instead of him?, if it happens every X years, than someone must rise ne?

Well, it's the Idea of Evil that orchestrates the Occultations and Incarnations, so there's always a chosen one. We have threads discussing that kind of things, please check them out.

 

[adon_shoko]

it didnt seemed like the apostle who created the daka are...well, intellegnt...most apostle (if not all?) are smart, well...atleast with some sort of sense of being...i doubt we would see the baron snake, rochine, wyald...moonlight, Irvine, grrr...the giant >_<! and much more just surrender and be used as rapists =\

 

[Aazealh]

it didnt seemed like the apostle who created the daka are...well, intellegnt...most apostle (if not all?) are smart

I don't see how you can judge whether they're intelligent or not, really. And I wouldn't say that most apostles are smart either, look at the Eclipse, at the Boar apostle than followed Guts and Casca to Godot's house, or at the grunts in Griffith's army (they didn't look very bright when they attacked Flora's mansion)...

i doubt we would see the baron snake, rochine, wyald...moonlight, Irvine, grrr...the giant >_<! and much more just surrender and be used as rapists =\

Griffith's captains are special cases rather than a generality, and while Rochine wasn't the typical apostle either, the Snake Baron doesn't strike me as especially smart or strong compared to the others.

 

[Tirade]

Yeah but that was because of the impending Occultation and all. I mean, he didn't come to rescue Griffith out of prison, so while I think he was curious about him and all, I wouldn't say he protected Griffith all the time before he became Femto. He watched the fight at Doldrey and helped Guts, and he killed Wyald later on, but that's it. If Kushans invaded I think he'd rather go and fight them on his own, like he was doing before, e.g. in volume 17 before he's visisted by the Falcon of Light. Griffith was also certainly not Zodd's "lord", remember that this one tried to fight against the Falcon of Light... He's the only one too as far as we know.

Let me put it this way: Zodd has certainly went out of his way to help Griffith and company.  Once he saw Griffith's Behelit, everything changed.  Sure, he might not have been convinced that Griffith was a worthy choice, but that's beside the point.  In the end, Zodd acquiesed to Griffith's fate.  Had he not, Zodd would have certainly attempted to deal with Griffith.  Based on Griffith's potential (future Godhand or not), Zodd would have dealt with a Kushan force.  Even if we discount Griffith becoming a member of the Godhand, we can't deny he has a behelit.  That counts for something.

 

[adon_shoko]

ya...i guess your right, there are lot of grunts who cant be really considered.

and i think i said it wrong, its not about intellegent (well, not just) for the baron and some, who gain with this power a superiority complex...i think they would try to oppose those wholl try to take over their territory, even if they are "fellow" apostles just because they think they worth alot more than the other =P

anyway, i guess im just saying that some apostles will rebel against Gani just like he does now...just that unlike now there gonna be alot more against him since he isnt the rightful king.

 

[Aazealh]

Based on Griffith's potential (future Godhand or not), Zodd would have dealt with a Kushan force. Even if we discount Griffith becoming a member of the Godhand, we can't deny he has a behelit. That counts for something.

Counts for what? It looks like you're neglecting all I've said about it until now. Guts has a beherit right now, what does that count for? In an alternate reality where Griffith wouldn't be tortured, wouldn't be dishonored, but would most likely lose the only thing he had to sacrifice, what reason would Zodd have to interfere with Griffith's life more than he did in the manga? How would he know what is part of the plan and what isn't? Zodd isn't even supposed to know that there's a "plan". For all he and we know, the Kushan invasion and Griffith's demise could be the plan. It could be causality, like the imprisonment and torture were, leading him to become Femto. Midland being conquered, his men being slaughtered, it's the end of his dream.

Smith's question was originally just about the Hawks versus the whole Kushan invasion force, I don't think he thought about stuff like this. If I were Zodd at that time, I'd rather have tried to fight one-on-one with someone as powerful as Ganishka, a worthy opponent.

i think they would try to oppose those wholl try to take over their territory, even if they are "fellow" apostles just because they think they worth alot more than the other

Yeah, I actually said so to Smith at the beginning of the thread.

anyway, i guess im just saying that some apostles will rebel against Gani just like he does now...just that unlike now there gonna be alot more against him since he isnt the rightful king.

I think that logically they wouldn't let themselves get conquered without fighting back. Now they usually aren't showing themselves too much around, so I don't think apostles would rush from all over the world to fight against Ganishka. Not all of them have a territory either, and why would apostles care about Midland anyway?

 

[CnC]

So basically, Zodd would help them out against the entire Kushan army because he's gonna protect Griffith. But then again we're also saying the reason we say he's gonna protect doesn't happen, so theres no need to protect him.

Honestly, speculation on this topic is ridiculous. This is taking a situation that isn't, under no circumstance, ever going to happen and pretending it could happen. Its not even really speculation, as there is nothing to speculate on. Move on.

This makes this thread now 31 posts too long

 

[Opie]

Lighten up, nothing else is going on around here.

 

[xechnao]

And why wouldn't he think that at another time? Really, Zodd isn't privy to the details of the Idea of Evil's great scheme. He played his role at that time in the story, but considering the alternate scenario we're speculating on I don't think it's safe to assume Zodd would have watched over him more than before. And Zodd couldn't possibly know whether Griffith would live or die in jail either. He was at the right place at the right time twice thanks to causality, but I don't think it can be part of the speculation here as I've said several times already.

I have the impression that Griffith's life was protected by the ghouls in the tower and most propably Zodd knew this.
The ghouls in there bowed to Griffith, so I guess even if Guts couldn't succeed byhimself to save Griffith, the ghouls would infest some people or the ex-sacrificed skeletons or something to help him.

 

[Aazealh]

I have the impression that Griffith's life was protected by the ghouls in the tower and most propably Zodd knew this.

Uhh, I don't see where you're getting that impression from, really. There's one scene where some specters appear to Griffith, and they seem relatively weak, nothing like the ones attacking Guts. Besides, how and why would Zodd know this? He's not a medium... I prefer to think his actions were coordinated by causality, rather than him supervising it.

I guess even if Guts couldn't succeed byhimself to save Griffith, the ghouls would infest some people or the ex-sacrificed skeletons or something to help him.

Hmm, I don't think it's likely honestly, that actually sounds quite far-fetched to me. It's not really the topic anyway.

 

[xechnao]

Uhh, I don't see where you're getting that impression from, really. There's one scene where some specters appear to Griffith, and they seem relatively weak, nothing like the ones attacking Guts. Besides, how and why would Zodd know this? He's not a medium... I prefer to think his actions were coordinated by causality, rather than him supervising it.

What do you mean weak? Spectres just infest bodies and control the bodies, right?
Zodd is not a medium but he seemed that he should knew when and where he should interfere. He appeared to deal with Wyald at the right place, at the right moment.
I don't think this was by chance.

 

[Walter]

What do you mean weak? Spectres just infest bodies and control the bodies, right?
Zodd is not a medium but he seemed that he should knew when and where he should interfere. He appeared to deal with Wyald at the right place, at the right moment.
I don't think this was by chance.

We're already off-topic, so this is my only reply. And xech, please, only one response as well.

Ok so, they were ghouls first, now they're spectres? That's fine. But, where do you get the idea that these specters had any desire to possess bodies? They sucked on Griffith's finger and induced a vision of the God Hand. That was their role.

I also don't see how they were doing a good job of "protecting" Griffith, either. The torturer was given an order by the King to preserve Griffith's life for three years. Unless, the spectres had already possessed the King (they've infiltrated the highest levels of the Midland governing body!)

Your logical leap would be fine if it had more support, but... it just doesn't.

 

[Aazealh]

We're getting off topic like previously said, so while I'm replying once more like Walter, let's keep it as short as possible please.

What do you mean weak? Spectres just infest bodies and control the bodies, right?

No, they don't have all the same strength and capacity to invest other creatures (remember the Incarnation ceremony? They were on a different level). And these are weak, they really don't look like they could do much. Nor would, if that matters at all.

Zodd is not a medium but he seemed that he should knew when and where he should interfere. He appeared to deal with Wyald at the right place, at the right moment.

I don't think he knew that in advance, no. More like he was roaming around (knewing the Occultation was near, time was coming), saw the scene and took action. Maybe watching what turn the events would take, but definitely not being aware of what would happen in advance.

I don't think this was by chance.

Causality.

Anyway, that's not what happened, and I prefer Miura's version without the shadow of a doubt.

 

[xechnao]

We're getting off topic like previously said, so while I'm replying once more like Walter, let's keep it as short as possible please.

No, they don't have all the same strength and capacity to invest other creatures (remember the Incarnation ceremony? They were on a different level). And these are weak, they really don't look like they could do much. Nor would, if that matters at all.

I don't think he knew that in advance, no. More like he was roaming around (knewing the Occultation was near, time was coming), saw the scene and took action. Maybe watching what turn the events would take, but definitely not being aware of what would happen in advance.

Causality.

Anyway, that's not what happened, and I prefer Miura's version without the shadow of a doubt.

Aaz, if he knew occultation was near why would he interfere anyway?
And causality can always be the answer about anything, but in this case I believe it could be more specific.

 

[Aazealh]

Aaz, if he knew occultation was near why would he interfere anyway?

Because he felt like it? We know he knew the Occultation was about to happen, that explains him being in the region, but his motivations for acting himself aren't linked to anything in particular as far as we know (apart from his desire to do so, his dialogue with Wyald is interesting regarding this).

And causality can always be the answer about anything, but in this case I believe it could be more specific.

Not anything, but many things yeah, where you'd talk about "chance" like earlier for example. I understand what you're getting at, but I don't think the story warrants it. Differences in opinion.

 

[Zelz]

If we are talking about the OLD band of the hawk here, I doubt Zodd would aid them DIRECTLY to protect Griffith, I mean he almost kills him when they first meet and they only survive because he sees that Griffith has the red Beherit or Egg of the King, which means he knew it was Griffiths fate and such. Also it was apparent that he was fighting AGAINST Midland before the eclipse I'm sure he would not protect Griffith and such unless it was certain he would take up his role of being Femto/God hand member, which even with Causality he wouldn't have known because I remember in the eclipse Void or someone saying that it was Griffiths CHOICE.

 

[Smith]

One more thing... somehow i feel that Zodd not directly interfering when Guts engage in a losing battle with Boscone has a reason... he just threw his own weapon to Guts that's all...

 

[CnC]

Zodds actions during that battle and the battle with Wyald were never outright explained (I suppose). Zodd was more likely acting "as he wished". The specifics are never outright explained but its pretty logical to deduce that he was acting to Griffith's benefit in both instances. It would interesting to pull the point that he was somehow acting in Guts' benefit as well. But as it stands now, theres nothing to point to that.

Theres even less to point to him acting in such a manner in a would-be (and ultimately B.S) battle with the Kushans of the Future tm.

Edit: this deserved a visual reference...

 

[Zelz]

But still...this is what Speculation is all about, and I agree with Smith on the whole Zodd throwing his sword for Guts during the Boscone battle. Anyway I still very much doubt he would help against the Kushans, I mean hell he might even fight on THEIR side, because when Rickert tells Pippin, Casca, Corcas and all about Zodd for the first time he says "He sometimes fights on the side of the ENEMY." By somethings I'm assuming "occasionally does battle" Also another thing is it depends on what time the Kushans would invade or whatever during the Old band of the hawk times before or after Zodd encountered Griffith. I would say if he had he would probably fight against Midland or whoever depending on what side he chooses and just not interfere with the Hawks but still parctipate in the war, similar to Tudor and Midlands. If he hadn't he would probably be fighting on the Kushans side and that would be how they first meet, but I think it all really comes down to "whatever Zodd feels like at the moment".

 

[Mad Angel Loki]

hahahahaahaha XD!!!
After that Zodd factor seem...rather "stupid"
BUT it is SPECULATION mwua ha ha