The child of caska

I'm alil confused about the nature of the demon spawn.

First was it caska and griffiths or caska and gattsu which was affected and warped by the rape during the eclipse.

Next, it was taken in by the giant behelit guy during the second ecclipse and presumably becomes becomes the host body of the reincarnated griffith...but then we see the strange arrival of the preschool aged boy on the beach in vol 28...which was sortof hinted at as her baby.

Thus im wondering which was which, as the demon fetus warned gattsu of the impending danger of caska. If griffith is reincarnated with the body of the fetus, it might have influenced griffith protecting caska on the snowy hill.

Thus im trying to figure out who is who, as both theories cant be true right?

Re: The child of Casca

From what "I" Understand, not to say aazealh wont come and correct me. Damn bastard.

But the demon spawn was tainted by Femto raping Casca while she was pregnant. It accepted its evil nature, but it always tried to protect caska, and to some extent Gutts also. But it wore itself out during the Feastival and was dying(speculation on my part from the hawks translation) and was dying, or just very weak. So the Egg apostle took it in and used it to give Griffith a new body.

The moon liight child (The one caska held on the beach) appears to have some power, I think it killed everyone on the ship, again, speculation. But i remember reading something that said he may have been the untainted child of gutts and casca.

Re: The child of Casca

Thats what i thought, but it makes me wonder if both possibilities are able to exist at the same time. Whether this is the spitting of the two worlds, with the child being of the world and griffith being a weird middle ground...

Moreover i wonder if since griffith is now reincarnated on earth, does femto still exist?

Re: The child of Casca

Griffith=Femto. 'nuff said.

Why can't the demon child and the moonlight boy be the same? It's not explicitly stated that they are, but there is certainly a possibility.

What do you mean griffith being a 'weird middle ground'? He is a God Hand now, having absolute authority.

Re: The child of Casca

I'm going to clarify or certify a few things in regard to what Kart and yota821 said. Anyway EnderZero, I would like you to search for older threads on the subject before posting next time, please.

EnderZero said:

First was it Casca and griffiths or Casca and Guts which was affected and warped by the rape during the eclipse.

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The Demon Child is the son of Guts and Casca. When Femto raped Casca, he tainted the child, thus making it what it was.

EnderZero said:

Next, it was taken in by the giant Beherit guy during the second ecclipse and presumably becomes becomes the host body of the reincarnated griffith...

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No presumption here, he did become the vessel for Femto to come back on earth (as Griffith, they are one and the same). That's why Griffith has the reactions he has when he meets Guts and Casca again. The remnants of the child in him react.

EnderZero said:

we see the strange arrival of the preschool aged boy on the beach in vol 28...which was sortof hinted at as her baby.

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Sort of, yeah. There's no certainty about anything here. Guts was reminded of his child like we were, but there's no other information about it, the rest is pure speculation. We just know that it's a "superior being".

EnderZero said:

If griffith is reincarnated with the body of the fetus, it might have influenced griffith protecting Casca on the snowy hill.

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Again, no "might" here, Griffith protected Casca because of the child. He acts without thinking and then ponders about the child, as far as the reader can tell.

EnderZero said:

both theories cant be true right?

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That's the hard part. First, the Demon Child being Griffith's vessel isn't a theory. Second, we know close to nothing about the Moonlight Child. More on it later.

Kart said:

But it wore itself out during the Feastival and was dying(speculation on my part

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That's not speculation, he was indeed dying (because of Mozgus).

Kart said:

I think it killed everyone on the ship, again, speculation.

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Why would he have killed everyone on Daiba's ship (I assume you refer to Daiba's)? That's rather unlikely IMHO, since Daiba commands the Kushan fleet, and the child didn't seem to be headed that way or anything. Actually nothing hints at this.

EnderZero said:

it makes me wonder if both possibilities are able to exist at the same time.

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There's nothing proving it or really hinting at it. And it does seem improbable. Now, the human imagination is powerful and we can think of some ways for this to be possible, here a bit of speculation: Griffith is a member of the God Hand. The Moonlight Child is a superior being. That's a connection between the two. When Femto was incarnated into a new Griffith, the world was changed according to the beherit-apostle's wish, and nothing say that the Demon Child couldn't have benefited from that change. He was after all at the center of the event. So, Griffith could have inherited a part of him while taking his body, a part of his ego, and in return the child could have inherited some of Griffith's power, as well as the ability to also reincarnate himself.

That would explain why Griffith has parts of the Demon Child in him, and why the Moonlight Child is a superior being (with obviously a more developed intellect that he's shown) as well as why he's got some eerie aura around him, not unlike Griffith's. Now that doesn't explain everything, does he have a real body or is he just an astral projection (maybe a wandering spirit that could take a form near the sea since it's strongly related to the astral world?)? How come the Brand doesn't react to him if he inherited some of Griffith's power? Maybe the "evil" part of him joined Griffith and only the pure part formed the new him? Is that plausible? Etc.

EnderZero said:

Moreover i wonder if since griffith is now reincarnated on earth, does femto still exist?

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Like yota821 said, Femto is Griffith. Femto was a spiritual being, like the other God Hand members. Griffith lives in the material world, he has a physical body. Again, please check older thread on the subject.

yota821 said:

Why can't the demon child and the moonlight boy be the same?

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Well, it's true that since Femto used the Demon Child's body to incarnate himself and since he has remnants of the child inside of him that are strong enough to dictate his actions, it's a bit of a stretch to imagine that the child also lives on his own, separately. He would then exist at two different places simultaneously. Of course there are possibilities, but I don't think anything warrants us to show confidence on the matter.

Re: The child of Casca

With what Aazealh said about the moon child being a spirit and be the pure part of the demon child, maybe when Griffith used the demon childs body to incarnate himself, he put his soul/being in it, so prehaps the moonchild is the soul/spirit that was orignally in the body but was forced out by Griffith using it to reincrate himself, but I guess im just having crazy thoughts here.

Re: The child of Casca

heck.. Imagine Moon Child is Hanafubuku..
quite a shock

Re: The child of Casca

fuxberg said:

heck.. Imagine Moon Child is Hanafubuku..
quite a shock

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I suppose the king of the elves would have to be an elf himself.. Not that I'm racist or anything lol. Well, this is off topic, but I nominate Puck to be Hanafubuku (before someone goes off on a rampage, this is meant half in jest).

Re: The child of Casca

darkbane said:

I suppose the king of the elves would have to be an elf himself.. Not that I'm racist or anything lol. Well, this is off topic, but I nominate Puck to be Hanafubuku (before someone goes off on a rampage, this is meant half in jest).

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Well, Puck is, in his own mind, the leader of the wind spirits.

Re: The child of Casca

Rhombaad said:

Well, Puck is, in his own mind, the leader of the wind spirits.

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He's not a wind spirit himself though, piskies are their descendants, the spirits of the wings.

Re: The child of Casca

the world was changed according to the beherit-apostle's

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Just one thought:
Perhaps, the moonlight child is the savior the beherit - apostle wanted to create and not griffith.
If not, it could be ironic because the beherit - apostle wanted to change the world assumedly with the birth of griffith and we all and the god hand too thought, that griffith is the one which would bring his reign of darkness over the world, but no one thought about the MoonChild and in the end it is he who change the world.
Could it be a parallelism to the birth of his father?(I assume that guts is his father)
He was out of plans and so it is the same thing with his son?

Re: The child of Casca

Feanor said:

Perhaps, the moonlight child is the savior the beherit - apostle wanted to create and not griffith.

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Interesting standpoint Feanor, but I somehow doubt that: we saw Griffith's new body being formed inside the egg, and it's him that appeared in Albion. Besides, the Egg-apostle was pretty straight-forward about it all. The incarnation ceremony, everything else... It all points to Griffith, IMHO. I prefer to think of the Demon/Moon child metamorphosis as a "side effect" as far as this speculation goes.

Feanor said:

If not, it could be ironic because the beherit - apostle wanted to change the world assumedly with the birth of griffith and we all and the god hand too thought, that griffith is the one which would bring his reign of darkness over the world, but no one thought about the MoonChild and in the end it is he who change the world.

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The problem here is that the world is already changing, one could even argue that it has changed already. Besides, I don't think the God Hand would be mistaken about something this big.

Feanor said:

Could it be a parallelism to the birth of his father?(I assume that guts is his father)
He was out of plans and so it is the same thing with his son?

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Well, even assuming all of this, how would it relate to Guts' birth? I don't see the connexion, and I don't understand your last line either.

Re: The child of Casca

What i say now is very speculative and i don't know if i have understood the things with idea in the right way. Don't be to rough on it;-)
I think, the thing with the sacrifice was long planed. Even before Griffith, Casca and Guts were born. In this "plan" Casca should be a virgin and she should be the mother and Femto the father of the child which should be the vessel for the birth of griffith. In the "plan" guts doesn't count because he should died long ago with his mother. But at the sacrifice ceremony casca was pregnant from guts. This was not in the "plan".
If i am a demon king i would abuse a virgin and use my own seemen to create my own pure self which i can use as vessel for me.
But at this point i assume that the god hand had no choice.
One possibility is that femto had to rape one of the from him sacrificed persons, in this case he had really no other choice than to rape casca.
Another explanation could be that the god hand don't wanted to wait till femto could find another one which he could rape and till a new eclipse in which he could enter the vessel.
In one way or in another they thought that the seemen of femto would contaminate the embryo which was in a very early state in such a way that the guts - part could not survive. But he managed to survive ... somehow. Parallelism to guts own birth?

Re: The child of Casca

Feanor said:

What i say now is very speculative and i don't know if i have understood the things with idea in the right way.

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It's not a big deal, don't worry. Don't hesitate to search for explanations in older threads if you have trouble with some concepts.

Feanor said:

In the "plan" guts doesn't count because he should died long ago with his mother.

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That's just impossible. Guts is one of the main elements if not the most important in Griffith's ascension as Femto. Without him, things wouldn't have happened the way they did, it would all have been very different. I don't think you can reasonably assume that he wasn't part of "the plan" when Skull Knight still wonders about him being influenced by Causality in volume 24. The old "Guts was never supposed to live in the first place" in itself isn't based on anything concrete either, basically just what Gambino says, and I'm sure everybody would agree that he's not the most reliable source.

Feanor said:

If i am a demon king i would abuse a virgin and use my own seemen to create my own pure self which i can use as vessel for me.

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You're assuming that Femto raped Casca in order to create the Demon Child because he knew he'd be incarnated and absolutely needed a vessel that would be from his own flesh. There's no element suggesting this in the manga, rather, the rape seemed to be purely intended as a revenge on Guts to me. You're also implying that the God Hand is acting as a whole and planning things that are more on Idea's level IMO. The Idea of Evil is the one that manipulates causality, plans things on very long term, etc. It is it that planned Griffith's life, for example. The God Hand can't foresee everything, and its members aren't the highest entities in existence, they are "just" emissaries from God. They didn't know Skull Knight would break into the Occultation for example, and without him Guts and Casca would have most probably died.

So what you said about a plan by the God Hand isn't very plausible in this context to me, especially since the degree of subtlety required is such that only the Idea of Evil could pull it off. Here's a thread with a similar discussion.

Re: The child of Casca

okay, the last questions about this.
1. Planed Idea Guts birth?
Here i'm not sure

(thought about that today)
2. Planed Idea that Skullknight could save Guts during the eclipse?
I think not.
3. Planed Idea the birth of the moonlight child assuming that the boy was not just a spirit?
I think not

some links?

Re: The child of Casca

Feanor said:

(thought about that today)

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I actually had replied soon after you posted but my browser crashed as I was about to post, so I didn't feel like retyping everything. I think my previous reply was better too, but whatever. Sorry for the delay.

Feanor said:

1. Planed Idea Guts birth?

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Well, there's no certainty about all these questions, but considering the importance Guts has in Griffith's life, I think we can safely assume that his own life was part of the plan, yeah. This is also true for later events, so there aren't many doubts here.

Feanor said:

2. Planed Idea that Skullknight could save Guts during the eclipse?

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That's hard to say, the God Hand didn't expect SK's intervention, but Void stayed silent. I think there are two approach to the event: either it wasn't planned but Idea reacted accordingly and this led to the story as we know it, or it was the plan all along and everything went "well". I myself tend to think that it was part of the scheme. In any case, occultations and incarnations don't happen that often (every 216 and 1000 years respectively), so I wouldn't expect the Idea of Evil to take anything lightly or to let its projects be thwarted. That's where causality comes into play, SK not being able to kill the Beherit-apostle for example.

Feanor said:

3. Planed Idea the birth of the moonlight child?

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That would be assuming the theory about the Moonlight Child being the reincarnation of the Demon Child is correct, and we don't have any clue about it for now. Nevertheless, if things were to be that way, I'd say no, the Idea of Evil didn't plan for things to turn out like this. The Demon Child is parasiting Griffith and I think that will eventually lead to his downfall.

For links, you can use the search engine of the forum.

Re: The child of Casca

THX
i will try the search function next time.

I find it interesting that the child of casca and guts could influence griffith in some way. It could indeed become a big problem for him.
But perhaps it could be, that if the moonlight child is really born and if it is the son of guts and casca griffith is now freed from him.

Re: The child of Casca

Feanor said:

I find it interesting that the child of casca and guts could influence griffith in some way. It could indeed become a big problem for him.

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Yes, it's most obvious in volume 22.

Feanor said:

But perhaps it could be, that if the moonlight child is really born and if it is the son of guts and casca griffith is now freed from him.

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But there's a problem, we see that Griffith has remnants of the child in him in the manga, so for this to be possible the Moonlight Child would need to have been "born" later on. It's not impossible but nothing hints at it nor could explain it for now.

Re: The child of Casca

EnderZero said:

but then we see the strange arrival of the preschool aged boy on the beach in vol 28...which was sortof hinted at as her baby.

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or it could be the legendary Elf King (or sth related to it) from across the sea  considering if it is the spirit that guided guts(when losing himself in the berserker form) to hear Schierke's voice. 

Re: The child of Casca

I'm a bit confused, maybe I missed an episode somewhere (I did forget to read most of the 11th book until recently) but in what episode does Femto use the demon child to reincarnate? It doesn't really make sense that he used it, but it's still floating around in two different forms.

Re: The child of Casca

Cypherwulf said:

I'm a bit confused, maybe I missed an episode somewhere

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Yeah, I guess you did. You see the Demon Child being ingested by the Beherit apostle at the end of volume 20, in episode 165. You then see it progress in volume 21, from episode 171 to 175, when Griffith appears.

Cypherwulf said:

It doesn't really make sense that he used it, but it's still floating around in two different forms.

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It's not floating around in two different forms. The Demon Child as it existed before has disappeared. The Moonlight Child is mysterious and might be related to the Demon Child, but nothing is sure about it, it's just speculation.

Re: The child of Casa and Guts

Here's a question What if Casca and Guts child was never tainted by Femto in the first place? I often wonder would their child be special anyway if Casca gave birth to the child under normal circumstances? Or do you think the moon child would have been normal? I guess i wonder about it since Guts has mysterious superhuman qualities.

Re: The child of Casa and Guts

xbigvmanx said:

Here's a question What if Casca and Guts child was never tainted by Femto in the first place? I often wonder would their child be special anyway if Casca gave birth to the child under normal circumstances? Or do you think the moon child would have been normal? I guess i wonder about it since Guts has mysterious superhuman qualities.

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Super human qualitied gained by years and years of intense training.

It's like saying a blacksmith is going to have strong kids naturally. It's not that you're born with the strength, it's just that you're brought up like that.

Re: The child of Casa and Guts

xbigvmanx said:

I often wonder would their child be special anyway if Casca gave birth to the child under normal circumstances?

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If she had stayed in Godot's cave and avoided trouble then I guess it could have been Ok yeah. Otherwise she might have had a miscarriage (due to stress, if possessed by specters, etc). We can't know what the effects of the mother being in the Interstice during the pregnancy would have been for the kid.

xbigvmanx said:

Or do you think the moon child would have been normal?

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We have yet to know who or what is the Moonlight Child. Relating the both is tricky at the moment.

xbigvmanx said:

I guess i wonder about it since Guts has mysterious superhuman qualities.

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Guts may have some natural predispositions as far as strength or survival go, but like Ng51386 said it's mostly his life that made him what he is. I don't think genetics would play a big role.

Re: The child of Casca

I've also wondered whether it was actually Casca's rape or the brand itself that tainted the child. What I mean to say is; doesn't the brand irrevocably change the individual that has been branded?

Therefore, perhaps the child may not have become the Demon Child, but due to being born in the Interstice, may have still ended up being the perfect host for Griffith's reincarnation, making a little of this argument moot point.

That is, unless you're referring to Casca not even being in the Occultation, which would be speculation on an unprecedented scale.