Episode 301

[Griffith]

To be honest, I'm fairly sure that what Griffith wants is inconsequential to what the rest of the God Hand are planning and especially what the idea of Evil wants from all this.

It could just as well be the other way around too, or that there's simply no deviation at all . From what we've seen of the other God Hand since the rebirth though, they aren't planning anything.

<I've melted into the Bahamas sephira for the time being.

I'm also not sure if its accurate to compare the goals of the original Griffith with the reborn one. He's a different creature now in mind, body and soul after the Eclipse.

I'm even more unsure it's accurate for you to say that though, one of first things Griffith did after being reincarnated was restating his commitment to his dream of making/taking his own kingdom. As far as he's concerned, nothing has changed.

Now that doesn't mean it isn't more complex than that, which you're absolutely right about, but those statements and scenes can't be disregarded for they certainly provide an answer.

 

[HawaiianStallion]

It could just as well be the other way around too, or that there's simply no deviation at all . From what we've seen of the other God Hand since the rebirth though, they aren't planning anything.

Well aren't they technically always planning, controlling, etc. seeing as they're the gods of casaulity? I mean they engineered the lives of would be apostles and most certainly Griffith so that they would most likely choose to sacrifice their loves in favor of power, their dreams, etc. They even gave Griffith a new body and giant beherit apostle to be reborn back into the physical world so that he could begin his quest to get his own Kingdom.

It's also not like they're physically inactive, we've seen then interact with the real world even if it is only a couple occasions such as when Conrad's faced formed from the rats only to expell them outwards.

On an unrelated topic I dont really think the apostles are going to turn over a new leaf, not even in the slightest. They're barely contained most of the time and I think they're only working with the humans simply because of Griffith, hell its not like they stopped eating humans when they joined his army, hell they wanted to eat Sonia and Mule had Grunbeld not been there, two of Griffith's closer compatriots.

 

[Ramen4ever]

Well aren't they technically always planning, controlling, etc. seeing as they're the gods of casaulity? I mean they engineered the lives of would be apostles and most certainly Griffith so that they would most likely choose to sacrifice their loves in favor of power, their dreams, etc. They even gave Griffith a new body and giant beherit apostle to be reborn back into the physical world so that he could begin his quest to get his own Kingdom.

I seriously recommend reading this.. in detail,
http://skullknight.net/idea/
As well as searching for the following in the search function: God Hand, Causality and Idea of Evil.

The God Hand were not the ones that "engineered" the lives of would be apostles and Griffith. They were also not the ones that gave Griffith a new body. The Idea of Evil is responsible for basically everything you just attributed to the God Hand.

*I put the 's text in bold, there's more but this section is the most relevant.*

And I produce those
As it is what I've been brought into existence for
I control fate
Obeying the essence of humankind
I weave every man's destiny

... Does that mean
that you're the one who controls my destiny?...
that you're the one... who arranged everything so that it would be this way?!

It was established that you would be here since a distant past
By influencing the lower levels of human consciousness
And merging blood with blood
I created the lineage that would give birth to the man you are
To pave the way for the times you would be born in
I manipulated History
And created an appropriate context for you
All the encounters you have had so far
Were all a part of the destiny that led you here as well

 

[Griffith]

Well aren't they technically always planning, controlling, etc. seeing as they're the gods of casaulity? I mean they engineered the lives of would be apostles and most certainly Griffith so that they would most likely choose to sacrifice their loves in favor of power, their dreams, etc. They even gave Griffith a new body and giant beherit apostle to be reborn back into the physical world so that he could begin his quest to get his own Kingdom.

It's also not like they're physically inactive, we've seen then interact with the real world even if it is only a couple occasions such as when Conrad's faced formed from the rats only to expell them outwards.

I was referring to the fact that it seems they and perhaps their roles have changed with the changing world. Slan was doing her own thing and seemed to suggest the same of the others. The desired events may already be set in motion and Griffith on his own as the prime mover. I don't think we should assume anything either way at this point though, it was already difficult enough to truly define their roles and powers in the first place, and now even more so in the expanded ethereal world we've come to learn more about since volume 24. Until then, all we really knew was elves, spirits, and God Hand. It's obviously much bigger than that, so maybe Guts has an instictual wisdom beyond his years, "just monsters pretending to be gods."

On an unrelated topic I dont really think the apostles are going to turn over a new leaf, not even in the slightest. They're barely contained most of the time and I think they're only working with the humans simply because of Griffith, hell its not like they stopped eating humans when they joined his army, hell they wanted to eat Sonia and Mule had Grunbeld not been there, two of Griffith's closer compatriots.

So then what's the problem as long as Griffith and the likes of Grunbeld are there to shepard them?

 

[HawaiianStallion]

I seriously recommend reading this.. in detail,
http://skullknight.net/idea/
As well as searching for the following in the search function: God Hand, Causality and Idea of Evil.

The God Hand were not the ones that "engineered" the lives of would be apostles and Griffith. They were also not the ones that gave Griffith a new body. The Idea of Evil is responsible for basically everything you just attributed to the God Hand.

Well wouldnt that still mean that there is something greater and more important than simply founding an empire for Griffith? Even if it wasnt specifically the God Hand its still the Idea of Evil and I doubt it really honestly cares about things like Empires and so forth if it manipulates destiny and the course of human events. Sort of like a means to an end, just something thats been planned for ages and ages.

So then what's the problem as long as Griffith and the likes of Grunbeld are there to shepard them?

Well I believe that's just it, a Kingdom is a big place and we see what apostles left to themselves end up doing, causing all kinds of evil and mischief... well I guess thats an understatement but the point still stands. Grunbeld and the other apostle leaders cant be every where at once and so far it doesnt seem like Griffith has that kind of ability aside from dreams and the like.

It was my opinion they follow Griffith because he's one of their "gods" and they're truly in awe of him and probably grateful for such power. That obviously isnt the case for apostles like Zodd or Rakshas (well he's in awe of his head) and I'm not sure of the correct wording, but as Wyald put it, werent they released back into the physical world to do whatever they want, or something along those lines?

They want to follow Griffith so they do just like they want to eat humans because... well I guess we're tasty. I could be wrong and I might have missed something specific about this but I always believed that old boys will be boys saying applies to apostles in the same manner. They are what they are.

 

[Ramen4ever]

Well wouldnt that still mean that there is something greater and more important than simply founding an empire for Griffith? Even if it wasnt specifically the God Hand its still the Idea of Evil and I doubt it really honestly cares about things like Empires and so forth if it manipulates destiny and the course of human events. Sort of like a means to an end, just something thats been planned for ages and ages.

If there is an ultimate plan, we don't know it. What we do know is that the Idea of Evil declared that Griffith's desire is it's desire as well.
I'm going to speculate that the IoE's so called ultimate plan is most likely along the lines of self preservation and developing more direct control over everything? Griffith plays the part of a more direct control, seeing as how his desire is the Idea's desire and he's about to establish his kingdom. As for self preservation, all the really means is letting a human population continue to thrive with a nice big healthy dose of death, fear and other "dark feelings". Though I could be completely wrong about it. After all. Is there even any proof that the Idea of Evil has concepts like an "ultimate plan/goal" it could be that it just manipulates things because that's it's nature. Giving reasons for pain and fear, etc. For example Ganishka could just be one of those "reasons" If that concept makes sense.

Some further reading,

... The destiny...
My...
God! What do you want from me?!

Be
As you will
I dwell deep in your heart
I am a part of you
You are a part of your kind's consciousness
A part of me
Your desire is my desire as well
Your actions themselves shall prove to be suitable for your kind as a whole
May those actions bring pain or salvation to the men
Do
As you will
Chosen One

 

[Griffith]

Well I believe that's just it, a Kingdom is a big place and we see what apostles left to themselves end up doing, causing all kinds of evil and mischief... well I guess thats an understatement but the point still stands. Grunbeld and the other apostle leaders cant be every where at once and so far it doesnt seem like Griffith has that kind of ability aside from dreams and the like.

What's the difference though? There were always Apostles doing the same and worse before. While on the contrary, since Griffith's rebirth, the Apostles of Midland have actually been aiding humans. Even the Kushans, despite their armies being viciously wiped out, would arguably fare better under Griffith's current style than Ganishka's tyrannical rule. I'm just saying that there's a lot flying in the face of our preconceived notions right now. We can't deny what we're seeing, so we're putting a lot of conditions on it until it goes back to what we expect. But, it makes you think, what could possibly bring Apostles and humans together in harmony? Well, we've already seen it happen since volume 22, and we already know the answer to that question:

It was my opinion they follow Griffith because he's one of their "gods" and they're truly in awe of him and probably grateful for such power.

As revealed by Ganishka it's even more profound, something at the very core of their, and I imagine his, being compels them to follow Griffith.

and I'm not sure of the correct wording, but as Wyald put it, werent they released back into the physical world to do whatever they want, or something along those lines?

How'd that work out for him? =)

Also, that's not only pre-rebirth, it's pre-eclipse, pretty meaningless here and now in this climate, with the Apostles serving under orders in an army. Otherwise all this is just what they want; living in peaceful accord with humans and fighting side by side in battle with them, comrades!

They want to follow Griffith so they do just like they want to eat humans because... well I guess we're tasty. I could be wrong and I might have missed something specific about this but I always believed that old boys will be boys saying applies to apostles in the same manner. They are what they are.

They are what they are, but do we truly make efforts to understand what that is, or are we maybe trying too hard to label and define it in black & white? So far for every "rule" I've come to know there seem to be more and more exceptions popping up.

 

[KazigluBey]

Also, that's not only pre-rebirth, it's pre-eclipse, pretty meaningless here and now in this climate, with the Apostles serving under orders in an army. Otherwise all this is just what they want; living in peaceful accord with humans and fighting side by side in battle with them, comrades!

Is it what they want or what Griffith decides that they want? I doubt the Apostles have an exact idea of what Griffith plans to do.  I can't imagine they'd choose to live in peaceful accord with humans without Griffith at the helm.

 

[becchii]

Wow, it's been nearly a whole year since I've last read Berserk and visited this forum at all... Nice to see there's a Mozgus smilie! It's the best one so far, definitely (Ganishka can go sit in a corner.)

I was kinda hoping the Ganishka/Griffith arc would've finished, but having once been addicted to Niconico Douga, I can't say I'm too surprised ;) I had only last read it when the war was about to start, anyway.

Sonia's little outburst was a bit surprising, it's made me like her less though - I don't know, probably not my favourite kind of character. I guess she reminds me a bit of some person I didn't quite like... m-maybe I secretly have the hots for Irvine, OH NOES.

I can't say I'd see the humans cooperating with the apostles willingly after this war ends though. Definitely not... what I would be glad to see is how the Kushan civilians are going to live (in harmony with other nations?) Come to think of it have we really seen that many Kushan civilians, aside from those young kids at Vritannis? Apologies if the topic's already been covered. We've been given a relatively one-sided portrait of the Kushans IMO, I'd be interested in seeing some civilians too...

 

[Griffith]

Is it what they want or what Griffith decides that they want? I doubt the Apostles have an exact idea of what Griffith plans to do. I can't imagine they'd choose to live in peaceful accord with humans without Griffith at the helm.

Exactly, the question is whether Griffith cares about that or not, though I tend to feel the age of darkness is going to be on a deeper level than Apostles behaving badly. I think the biggest example so far has actually been the trolls and Qliphoth appearing in the real world. Maybe Griffith and his Apostles won't enslave or treat humanity poorly, but just living side by side in collusion with them is bad enough.

Enough to disgust a certain swordsman anyway.

 

[Walter]

I tend to feel the age of darkness is going to be on a deeper level than Apostles behaving badly. I think the biggest example so far has actually been the trolls and Qliphoth appearing in the real world. Maybe Griffith and his Apostles won't enslave or treat humanity poorly, but just living side by side in collusion with them is bad enough.

Well, from what we know of the Age of Darkness, "Evil shall overcome the Holy, Illusion shall overcome Existence, Fear shall overcome Hope, Hate Shall overcome Love, The Dead shall overcome the Living. All the Darkness shall cover the Light, as if the moon shadows the sunlight."

Regardless of someone's perspective on how apostles should behave, this sounds like pretty bad news to me.

 

[Griffith]

Well, from what we know of the Age of Darkness, "Evil shall overcome the Holy, Illusion shall overcome Existence, Fear shall overcome Hope, Hate Shall overcome Love, The Dead shall overcome the Living. All the Darkness shall cover the Light, as if the moon shadows the sunlight."

Regardless of someone's perspective on how apostles should behave, this sounds like pretty bad news to me.

That's what I'm thinking, it doesn't matter what Griffith or the Apostles do either way, it's something seemingly beyond even his control. Arguably it's already been happening and this will just be the final culmination.

Which get me thinking, then again, it may within control, or it could be both ways. Perhaps the merging of the world's and the age of darkness aren't mutually exclusive, with age of darkness being only a possible outcome of the merge, though a certainty with God Hand manipulating it. So, that would be the future going forward as far as they were concerned, but perhaps if those like Flora and Schierke had their way, it could be turned into something else completely.

 

[hanafubuku]

Exactly, the question is whether Griffith cares about that or not, though I tend to feel the age of darkness is going to be on a deeper level than Apostles behaving badly. I think the biggest example so far has actually been the trolls and Qliphoth appearing in the real world. Maybe Griffith and his Apostles won't enslave or treat humanity poorly, but just living side by side in collusion with them is bad enough.

Enough to disgust a certain swordsman anyway.

So Femto achieving Griffith's dream in the real world will bring about an apocalyptic merging of the multiple layers of existence

Either way, the higher Griffith climbs to get to his castle, the messier it gets when Guts smacks him down.

 

[KazigluBey]

That's what I'm thinking, it doesn't matter what Griffith or the Apostles do either way, it's something seemingly beyond even his control. Arguably it's already been happening and this will just be the final culmination.

Which get me thinking, then again, it may within control, or it could be both ways. Perhaps the merging of the world's and the age of darkness aren't mutually exclusive, with age of darkness being only a possible outcome of the merge, though a certainty with God Hand manipulating it. So, that would be the future going forward as far as they were concerned, but perhaps if those like Flora and Schierke had their way, it could be turned into something else completely.

If the different "layers" of the universe begin to combine and the world of mortals turns into some replication of an eclipse, yet a perpetual one, then things can't get much worse.

 

[Shadax]

Well, there is still our little fish called Guts causing ripples in the river of time.

At this point, the Idea of Evil and the Godhand are beyond the reach of Guts. With the merging of layers however, the realm of them gets closer and closer to the real world, and the head baddies in turn become reachable to Guts, SK and the rest. Even if they aren't strong enough to take them down yet, the apocalypse might eventually be what becomes the downfall of the Idea and co.

 

[Walter]

Even if they aren't strong enough to take them down yet, the apocalypse might eventually be what becomes the downfall of the Idea and co.

 

[Th3Branded0ne]

Until everything merges completely we are not sure if God Hand will be approachable. There is still plenty of time before everything turns into the age of darkness. In that time I think Guts and Co. will reach puck's home and try to heal and protect Casca. If Miura makes use of the length of his inspiration from the "Guin Saga", then I can assume this merging of the layers will take steps and little by little as volumes progress the changes can be seen gradually.

 

[Ramen4ever]

I don't think the Idea of Evil is something you can destroy with a sword. As long as human's exist, it exists.
Something I'm not too sure about ..but didn't Miura remove the Idea of Evil by removing the lost episode 83? Or at least all that remains is like two comments from a "mysterious voice" to Griffith.
I'm not too sure that the Idea of Evil will actually be confronted. The GH maybe, but the true "mastermind" behind it all is basically untouchable.

 

[Walter]

didn't Miura remove the Idea of Evil by removing the lost episode 83? Or at least all that remains is like two comments from a "mysterious voice" to Griffith.

You see a big 2-page spread of it at the end of Episode 82.  Void also mentions "That is the mercy of the God created by man," during the eclipse.

And in volume 20, there's a three part episode titled: "Shadow of Idea," a title referring to the events of the psuedo-Eclipse in Albion. 

 

[Ramen4ever]

You see a big 2-page spread of it at the end of Episode 82. Void also mentions "That is the mercy of the God created by man," during the eclipse.

And in volume 20, there's a three part episode titled: "Shadow of Idea," a title referring to the events of the psuedo-Eclipse in Albion.

That's quite a lot of new detail to me at least. Thank you Walter. I appreciate your wisdom.

I've been thinking about the Idea in general lately. Ultimately it's the mastermind behind everything yet I don't think it's an entity that will ever disappear or even be confronted. Would an ending to Berserk that deals with the apostles and the GH in general (maybe not even all of them) but leaves the Idea of Evil alone be bitter sweet to the readers? I personally would be fine with Guts just confronting Griffith and the rest of the GH and the apostles. Though I've been thinking about whether or not there's any chance of the Idea of Evil's level of manipulation or control being effected or disrupted somehow. Thoughts?

 

[Griffith]

A god created by man can theoretically be destroyed by man as well. And yeah, I think an ending where Guts and Casca are still branded and are damned for eternity is pretty bitter. I still wonder how far they'd have to go to undo it, if it's possible. For example, if Griffith, as the one who branded them, or perhaps as the God Hand grand poobah now, were to perish while they still lived, would that be enough?

 

[Xem]

Guts' struggle isn't just against Griffith, but all apostles. His conquest to destroy "anything that had to do" with the eclipse wouldn't be over even if Griffith was killed. I'm fairly confident a conclusion will be dealt with concerning the Idea. I look at it somewhat linear with the man behind the curtain in the Wizard of Oz... all will be revealed in time.

 

[Griffith]

Guts' struggle isn't just against Griffith, but all apostles. His conquest to destroy "anything that had to do" with the eclipse wouldn't be over even if Griffith was killed.

Yeah, but the point of that still was to reach Griffith, those other things being in his way. He himself asked how long he'd have to carry on before reaching Griff and if it was worth it, so I don't think he intended to hunt down every single Apostle and evil spirit afterward. It's even harder to say now that Guts has essentially abandoned his revenge for the time being.

I'm fairly confident a conclusion will be dealt with concerning the Idea. I look at it somewhat linear with the man behind the curtain in the Wizard of Oz... all will be revealed in time.

Except that instead of The Wizard of Oz it will be like the 1998 TV movie epic Merlin, just as I've always said! Yes, finally on youtube, the 8:00 mark onward will explain everything; behold, the most precious secrets of Berserk's ending revealed!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lPalAR8Ieeo&fmt=18

"Look at me!"

 

[Walter]

Except that instead of The Wizard of Oz it will be like the 1998 TV movie epic Merlin, just as I've always said! Yes, finally on youtube, the 8:00 mark onward will explain everything; behold, the most precious secrets of Berserk's ending revealed!!

Yeah, I think that clip (and in vol 24, with Puck's "Cogito Ergo Sum" flag) exemplifies that a resolution to this will likely be a little more complicated than humans just turning their backs on The Idea of Evil. It's something that holds residence in "the darkness that dwells in every human heart."

So, they're basically going to need some SERIOUS hardware to remove the brand and take on the true evil in the world.

 

[Ramen4ever]

Maybe what's needed is an eventual explanation on why it's the collective darker feelings of human's that created the Idea of Evil. Why the darker side, why not the good side (well okay there would be no story otherwise). Also, if people accepted the creatures from the realm of the dead or interstice if you prefer.. would a large scale acceptance or maybe just an understanding of those creatures diminish the fear and hate in the world? I mean look at what's happening now, the humans are kind of accepting the apostles. If they no longer fear them and they accept them.. wouldn't that reduce.. maybe just slightly.. the overall amount of darker negative feelings in the world? Or would a reduction even effect the Idea of Evil?
Considering that magic users have an understanding of how the world works.. I think it might actually be "knowledge" maybe about the truth of how the world works, that will determine how things end.

Or maybe by revealing the apostles and the different monsters in the world.. Miura is setting up the humans to eventually unite and fight all the monsters in the world? I don't think that would effect the Idea though.

I'm sure Miura will work it all out nicely in the end though.