Well, I wouldn't be so sure... I don't believe it myself. It doesn't make much sense yet, and at this point could really be almost anything. But, I just saw a potential connection so I thought I'd point it out.Oburi said:How interesting Walter, I wouldn't doubt a connection at all, in fact it seems obvious.
Aazealh said:What is it that you call the "evil dimension" exactly?
Walter said:The imagery also resembles some images I've come across of the central nervous system
Slime_Beherit said:Void does have some kind connection to the city that ol' just stomped on right?
Slime_Beherit said:so who's plan is coming into fruition Void's, Femto's or the almighty ? I'm having a bit trouble understanding why the merger of realms was effected.
Kavaron said:The Abyss that we've seen many times.. The evil spirits from hell could come out through Ganishka and haunt the world.
you've just called skullknight.net translation wrongto be basing yourself on wrong translations.
I do not read most of the threads here, and do not recall someone mentioning the word "layer" frequently and with a specific meaning, but considering that you think that using exact words from sk.net translation is a bad idea, I'm not sure you even have a solution for cases like these ;).Anyway, we've all been using those words with specific meanings in mind, so if you barge in and attribute them other meanings without notifying anyone... Misunderstandings happen.
I was writing my post for like 30 mins and when I pressed "submit" it warned me about new posts, but I've decided to leave the post the way it was before Walter's post, because thats what I've been thinking atm.And seeing as both Walter and I posted before you did, I don't see the need for you to ignore what was said. It's not as if you actually posted before we did
um, thats actualy what i said.No, actually, they are a part of the astral world... Do you understand?
my point of view makes more sense to me, idk what else can I say. If Spiritual World has both depth and regions then thinking that there is no interaction or relation between them is like thinking those things arent in one world. I see no reason to think that they are completely independent, but see a reason to think that there is some relation between them - they are both used to describe the Spiritual World.Yes, but not necessarily related to regions like the Qliphoth... Wow, is it that hard to get?
Thats the point of assumption. If it was clearly stated in manga then what I say wouldnt be called "assumption".But we're not told any details about this. You realize that, right?
because at the time i was writing my post it was appropriate (based on the sk.net translation) and I got used to it?Why insist on making an amalgam of those words and the notions that accompany them after you've been explained it isn't appropriate?
Because when someone continues to repeat that I'm wrong and I disagree on that, I'm trying to explain myself more without changing my point much.Why not say that Ok, there are at least three worlds and at least two of them have been merging...
After seeing that you interpret his words differently, I was trying to focus your attention on what his line meant in my opinion.you're blatantly contradicting the line of the character
hm, I like how you call your assumptions "safe" and my "wrong"Basically, it's safe to assume that Ganishka went at the very bottom of the spiritual world (if not beyond)
Danat said:anyway I dislike how you tend to repeat that I'm wrong/mistaking without providing much explanation. only manga can prove me wrong since I'm making assumptions, not statements, so at this point I've lost my interest in discussing this any further.
Danat said:you've just called skullknight.net translation wrong
Danat said:considering that you think that using exact words from sk.net translation is a bad idea, I'm not sure you even have a solution for cases like these ;).
Danat said:um, thats actualy what i said.
Danat said:my point of view makes more sense to me, idk what else can I say. If Spiritual World has both depth and regions then thinking that there is no interaction or relation between them is like thinking those things arent in one world.
Danat said:Thats the point of assumption. If it was clearly stated in manga then what I say wouldnt be called "assumption".
Rough example: A = B, B = C
my position: assuming that A = C
Danat said:Because when someone continues to repeat that I'm wrong and I disagree on that, I'm trying to explain myself more without changing my point much.
Danat said:After seeing that you interpret his words differently, I was trying to focus your attention on what his line meant in my opinion.
Danat said:anyway I dislike how you tend to repeat that I'm wrong/mistaking without providing much explanation. only manga can prove me wrong since I'm making assumptions, not statements, so at this point I've lost my interest in discussing this any further.
Walter said:In trying to figure out just what the fuck we're seeing at the end of 306, I came across something really obvious. However, before I get into this, let me forward it by saying I'm not fully convinced myself the following has any actual connection. However, I think we've seen something visually similar to the ending of 306, in a similarly monumental moment in the series:
[...]
Obviously, I don't think another God Hand member is going to be born here after this massive battle. However, the apostles are transfixed during a similar moment in vol 13, just as the big Femto reveal, with veins underneath then, and now in my opinion -- overhead. I think whatever it is that's appearing in the sky in 306, it resembles something more like blood vessels or veins, or hell even nerve endings, than tree trunks, which seems to have been the dominant theory in the thread. In short, I think it may be something related to the God Hand.
Knight said:How should look fissure in 2-D space like window, if we project it in 3-D space? Maybe like "tree"
Yeah, but that was referring to Ganishka before he split open. Right now something new is appearing/happening.Badass mode ash said:One of the titles did say final god.
Your wording is very confusing. I'm unsure what you mean about 2D and 3D and how that relates to this... but I think you might be trying to say this is what it would look like if reality was split open (fissure). But, as I said just above, based on the attention this phenomena is getting at the end of 306, I think it's something new that we haven't seen yet -- not just more of the explosion.Knight said:How should look fissure in 2-D space like window, if we project it in 3-D space? Maybe like "tree"
Henry Spencer said:Will any characters such as Schierke be affected by the changes in the world at all?
Knight said:How should look fissure in 2-D space like window, if we project it in 3-D space? Maybe like "tree"
Lithrael said:My first thought, before I thought 'tree', was of Ganishka's legs as a huge artery and vein supplying blood to the nest of blood vessels above, with a massive unseen underground.
*surprised*The translation is not wrong. It's correct to talk of "layers" for the varying depths of the astral world. And rather, we should simply talk of 3 different worlds (corporeal, astral, ideal), a bit like the Holy Trinity in a way. Three parts that form a whole.
What I tried to tell is that in my opinion its a correct approach to talk about manga with users from forum X by using the terms from the translation posted on that same forum. IIRC you said that the problem that arised because of the misunderstanding was on my part so I disagreed on that because I think the approach is Ok. You never called it simply "misunderstanding", you called it "my problem" so I never agreed with you ;).Please don't be a smartass. It falls flat and only serves to underline your bad faith.
sure it might not be. I'm fine with that. I'm just making a guess (or even assumption based on assumption) that suits me and makes most sense to me atm. You probably wouldnt like such assumptions, so I think I'm not gonna post my thoughts here anymore (arguing over assumption is a boring waste of time), only obvious things perhaps ;).Anyway, the problem I have with your original assumption is that you're relating Ganishka's trip, his newfound power and how "imaginable" he was to the extent the worlds are merging together when it might not be the case.
Imo it depends on where they are in "people's minds". If people would believe (and tell stories) that its possible to go for a walk and suddenly meet all four elemental kings of the world (like its not smth unusual) ;), then I would expect them to be very close to reality like elves. And I'm not gonna go into details of why I think this way - this is the impression i got about Berserk wolrd while reading the manga so its hard to remember each event that made me think this way. Though I think I should note that my way of analysing events in Berserk assumes that "noone knows everything for sure", so I always think myself if the character really knows what he is talking about or if he can later say smth like "omg i was totally wrong". I like to _see_ and _judge_ (assume) myself whats happening and not just think inside the boundaries of some character's speech meaning. I think you do not read manga this way (actually I'm not sure anyone else does ;)), which could explain why you always say "we're not told that its like this".For example, where are the four elemental kings of the world? Or the spirits we've seen Schierke summon?
Danat said:*surprised*
may I ask what changed your mind? (no sarcasm or stuff like that here. I think i should add such notes after seeing how Walter reacted on my post )
Danat said:I usually use the word "plane" for those things: Material Plane, Astral plane, Ideal plane. That's the term used in esoteric philosophies, but I figured you wouldnt want to use that word because "it's not from Berserk" ;), so I never mentioned it.
Danat said:sure it might not be. I'm fine with that. I'm just making a guess (or even assumption based on assumption) that suits me and makes most sense to me atm. You probably wouldnt like such assumptions, so I think I'm not gonna post my thoughts here anymore (arguing over assumption is a boring waste of time), only obvious things perhaps ;).
Danat said:Imo it depends on where they are in "people's minds". If people would believe (and tell stories) that its possible to go for a walk and suddenly meet all four elemental kings of the world (like its not smth unusual) ;), then I would expect them to be very close to reality like elves.
Danat said:And I'm not gonna go into details of why I think this way
Danat said:Though I think I should note that my way of analysing events in Berserk assumes that "noone knows everything for sure", so I always think myself if the character really knows what he is talking about or if he can later say smth like "omg i was totally wrong".
Danat said:I think you do not read manga this way, which could explain why you always say "we're not told that its like this".
Actually I'm waiting for them to appearWhy not include a few spirits similar to those Schierke calls forth in this episode? That's my question.
Yes, but not the one you mentioned (imo). The being that play a specific role that fits too good in the general human interpretation of the world is very likely to be made by humans. For example can you imagine wheel-of-war (or w/e its name was) to be "born" in astral world without any humans on earth? The term "war" only has meaning for humans - there is no "war" in nature. That wheel would look like some stupid creature without humans and their ideals ;).But not all beings in the astral world are necessarily related to people's imagination.
In my opinion possibility of their appearance is based on where IoE is located. If the translation I have for volume 13 is correct, IoE was made by humans, not imagined, MADE. People wanted smth to be born but they didnt want to imagine it - so came the IoE, which in my opinion is the deepest part of the Spiritual World that the human consciousness can get to - the creature that was made by human wish alone (the usual process of imagination is: wish -> image, but this time its just wish, so its not an imagination). Thats why the God Hand appears when the human is so desperate he cant even imagine smth that would help him (Count: "not even God can help me.") and just WANTS to be helped - this allows him to call the God Hand (via Beherit though ;)). So even if IoE wasnt exactly imagined, it still was created with a specific puprose - to give people the "reasons to live" they wanted. So I dont see any problems with the God Hand getting closer (not appearing) to the corporeal world while the worlds are merging - they still are connected with the human consciousness via IoE. And considering that I use the Pontiff words as a depth-meter in Spiritual World, Ganishka was totally out of the human consciousness's scope in the Spiritual World. The main question is - was he deepear than IoE in the Spiritual World or not ;).Like I told you earlier, we just saw the God Hand appear, and they aren't beings people just imagined.
Maybe that's why Miura took a break?We know he went to the abyss, so if everything between there and the corporeal world is supposed to appear, then why aren't we shown more powerful entities aside from the God Hand?
"It doesn't matter what's said in the manga" is more correct. If someone would say "I'm holding an apple" while holding a sword - would you think he is holding an apple?Hahaha yeah, of course. "It doesn't matter what's shown in the manga, I know better!"
But your "contradictions" are always expressed like "it's not necessarily like that" which is not a contradiction. And like I said I base myself (my assumptions) on the things I see, then on the things I "hear" from Berserk characters, so if you say that I contradict to whats in manga then it should be something that _happened_ that proves me wrong, but IIRC you only provide someone's words. Othwerwise why not just provide some EVENT that happened in manga (not just reference to some "talk") that proves me wrong. Like if I say "Elves cant fly" you tell me the episode where we've seen them fly.And when I point out that something contradicts what's in the manga it's simply because it's the case.
Danat said:Yes, but not the one you mentioned (imo). The being that play a specific role that fits too good in the general human interpretation of the world is very likely to be made by humans. For example can you imagine wheel-of-war (or w/e its name was) to be "born" in astral world without any humans on earth? The term "war" only has meaning for humans - there is no "war" in nature. That wheel would look like some stupid creature without humans and their ideals ;).
Danat said:In my opinion possibility of their appearance is based on where IoE is located. If the translation I have for volume 13 is correct, IoE was made by humans, not imagined, MADE.
Danat said:People wanted smth to be born but they didnt want to imagine it - so came the IoE, which in my opinion is the deepest part of the Spiritual World that the human consciousness can get to - the creature that was made by human wish alone (the usual process of imagination is: wish -> image, but this time its just wish, so its not an imagination).
Danat said:Thats why the God Hand appears when the human is so desperate he cant even imagine smth that would help him (Count: "not even God can help me.") and just WANTS to be helped - this allows him to call the God Hand (via Beherit though ;)).
Danat said:So even if IoE wasnt exactly imagined, it still was created with a specific puprose - to give people the "reasons to live" they wanted. So I dont see any problems with the God Hand getting closer (not appearing) to the corporeal world while the worlds are merging - they still are connected with the human consciousness via IoE.
Danat said:And considering that I use the Pontiff words as a depth-meter in Spiritual World, Ganishka was totally out of the human consciousness's scope in the Spiritual World. The main question is - was he deepear than IoE in the Spiritual World or not ;).
Danat said:It was only one episode that covered the merge process anyway. You talk like we've seen many volumes since then.
Danat said:"It doesn't matter what's said in the manga" is more correct. If someone would say "I'm holding an apple" while holding a sword - would you think he is holding an apple?
"I know better" -> "I can see myself whats happening". same example as above.
Danat said:But your "contradictions" are always expressed like "it's not necessarily like that" which is not a contradiction.
Danat said:And like I said I base myself (my assumptions) on the things I see, then on the things I "hear" from Berserk characters, so if you say that I contradict to whats in manga then it should be something that _happened_ that proves me wrong, but IIRC you only provide someone's words. Othwerwise why not just provide some EVENT that happened in manga (not just reference to some "talk") that proves me wrong.
Gaahl said:In this episode we saw the dead rising from their graves.
I wonder if this has implications on the nature of death itself in this new world:
What happens now, when a man would normally die, lets say from illness? Does rise some moments later as a Zombie?
Gaahl said:Iirc, Skullknight once told Guts that Spirits, who even in death cling to life, gather in the interstice (near the end of volume 13).
So, where does a spirit go now, once it's body dies?
Gaahl said:I'm sure lots of people are going to die to those monsters ow appearing. Just imagine what the world could look like when Guts returns from Elfhelm:
Only a few, scattered living humans, with most of the continent inhabited by monsters and spirits.