Episode 307

Aazealh

そうはいかぬ
Staff member
asmer said:
However, I always interpreted the insignia/mark we've seen used by followers of the Holy See as some representation of a symbolized Falcon...?
Of course it looks like a stylized falcon, especially to us, considering what we know. But that doesn't mean it's the only thing it symbolizes (in fact it isn't, as we've know for a very, very long time), and there's more to it than just the falcon part too. Furthermore, only that very specific symbol is used, we've never seen any actual falcons so far. In Falconia on the other hand, we have plenty of falcon statues and other esoteric symbols, but no sign of the Holy See's emblem.

asmer said:
Argh, I "re-read" the episode before my previous post, and just realizes after your post that we do! :schierke: And it's somehow inspired by Rome I guess (the Colosseum, St. Peter's Square). But no church/temple in view (for now), that's for sure!
Something tells me you didn't read the whole thread carefully. :femto:
 
Aazealh said:
Furthermore, only that very specific symbol is used, we've never seen any actual falcons so far.
Right, I must agree with that.... What is a bit misleading to me is that we don't know if that dream everybody had about a Falcon was part of the Holy See's religion, something that was awaited for a long time, or not. But with the little details we have about the Holy See's scriptures, I have to admit the Falcon symbolism can't be clearly associated with the Holy See.........

Aazealh said:
Something tells me you didn't read the whole thread carefully. :femto:
Well.... I tried to, but with all those colleagues passing behind my desk, and all those working people around here, it's not easy to read a thread peacefully at work!! :troll:
 

Walter

Administrator
Staff member
Regarding the Falcon symbols in Falconia, the main insignia above the gate to the city really looks familiar to me, though I do agree it's a bit of a stretch.



When I first saw this, I thought hm, the arrangement of the wings at the bottom look a little familiar. They're curved a little unnaturally, unlike the others, which just look like outspread wings. These appear to be forming the double helix evident in the Holy See symbol, the Brand, and :idea:

Well, that's just my take on it anyway :void:
 

Aazealh

そうはいかぬ
Staff member
asmer said:
What is a bit misleading to me is that we don't know if that dream everybody had about a Falcon was part of the Holy See's religion, something that was awaited for a long time, or not.
Nothing so far has suggested it was the case.

Walter said:
Regarding the Falcon symbols in Falconia, the main insignia above the gate to the city really looks familiar to me, though I do agree it's a bit of a stretch.
Neat observation, but a bit of a stretch, I have to agree.
 

Walter

Administrator
Staff member
Another thing I noticed that hasn't really been discussed at length yet, the dome visible behind Falconia. There have been arguments about what it could be. But by raising the contrast around the dome, you can get a good idea.



This is the top of the dome. You can see the cloud shape around it is consistent with what you can see THROUGH the dome, meaning that it's likely a giant, translucent dome.
 

Aazealh

そうはいかぬ
Staff member
Now that is what I call a brilliant observation! :guts:

Walter said:
This is the top of the dome. You can see the cloud shape around it is consistent with what you can see THROUGH the dome, meaning that it's likely a giant, translucent dome.

Case closed! :carcus:
 
Walter said:
Regarding the Falcon symbols in Falconia, the main insignia above the gate to the city really looks familiar to me, though I do agree it's a bit of a stretch.

http://skullknight.net/images/falconia-symbol.jpg

When I first saw this, I thought hm, the arrangement of the wings at the bottom look a little familiar. They're curved a little unnaturally, unlike the others, which just look like outspread wings. These appear to be forming the double helix evident in the Holy See symbol, the Brand, and :idea:

Well, that's just my take on it anyway :void:

Notice also how the roots of the giant tree could also shoot deep down, into the shape of a double helix.
 

Walter

Administrator
Staff member
Jaze1618 said:
Notice also how the roots of the giant tree could also shoot deep down, into the shape of a double helix.
Yeah, thats one of the first thoughts I had when I saw the two-page spread put together of that. But Im unsure if there will indeed be a connection. Could just be where Ganishka's legs were, afterall :flora:
 
Walter said:
http://skullknight.net/images/falconia-symbol.jpg
This may just be me being weird, but the first thing I thought of when I saw that was of the seraphim in Christianity. Or more generally to the angelic hierarchy where the closer to the "top" you go, the more wings the angels have (angels and archangels having two, cherubim have four, seraphim have six). The seraphim, in Christianity, are described as an angel's face surrounded by six wings (six pairs, perhaps? :serpico:) and are the top of the angel food chain, the closest ones to God. I don't know though. I'm just throwing the idea out there.

Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seraphim#Seraphim_in_Christianity
 

Walter

Administrator
Staff member
Mousquetaire said:
The seraphim, in Christianity, are described as an angel's face surrounded by six wings (six pairs, perhaps? :serpico:) and are the top of the angel food chain, the closest ones to God. I don't know though. I'm just throwing the idea out there.

Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seraphim#Seraphim_in_Christianity
I'd say that makes much more sense than my theory. :guts: Visually and figuratively, I can see a parallel.
 

RaffoBaffo

Ex-Newser of the late Berserk Chronicles
Mousquetaire said:
This may just be me being weird, but the first thing I thought of when I saw that was of the seraphim in Christianity. Or more generally to the angelic hierarchy where the closer to the "top" you go, the more wings the angels have (angels and archangels having two, cherubim have four, seraphim have six). The seraphim, in Christianity, are described as an angel's face surrounded by six wings (six pairs, perhaps? :serpico:) and are the top of the angel food chain, the closest ones to God. I don't know though. I'm just throwing the idea out there.

Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seraphim#Seraphim_in_Christianity
Lucifer was a Seraphim but unlike other Seraphim who had six wings, Lucifer was featured to have twelve wings. :badbone:
 

Walter

Administrator
Staff member
I've read comments wondering what will happen with the former Kushans. I think with Falconia being the site of the merging and the appearance of the Gani-tree connecting with several world religions, the city could become the melting pot for all cultures. And maybe even beyond that -- a holy city, a mecca, ruled by a man people regard as a God. We could even be seeing the birth of a new religion here right before our eyes.

So many possibilities for the future... I can hardly wait.
 

Th3Branded0ne

I'll be back.
You know Walter when you put it that way, it also kinda reminded me of the Citadel in Mass Effect. Of course is not the same, but it sure has many different cultures and races. I do think with the Size of Falconia it will be a melting pot. Maybe we'll see some kind of pilgrimage by people far away just to witness it and they might end up staying.
 

Walter

Administrator
Staff member
Th3Branded0ne said:
You know Walter when you put it that way, it also kinda reminded me of the Citadel in Mass Effect.
Hahaha I never expected to be discussing ME in the current episodes thread :ganishka: But yeah, and the two cities could also be connected by their ... purpose. :femto:

Maybe we'll see some kind of pilgrimage by people far away just to witness it and they might end up staying.
Yeah and they might seek it out for other reasons as well -- protection.
 

Aazealh

そうはいかぬ
Staff member
asmer said:
A bit of a stretch
But a neat observation nonetheless.

RaffoBaffo said:
Lucifer was a Seraphim but unlike other Seraphim who had six wings, Lucifer was featured to have twelve wings. :badbone:
I've never heard of this. What's your source?
 

Daijyashin

Berserk is Divine and Human
Aazealh said:
Now that is what I call a brilliant observation! :guts:
Yeah, indeed. Truly a good finding.

Aazealh said:
I've never heard of this. What's your source?
The only thing that comes in my mind is the Lucifer from Bastard!!, but I don't know how reliable as source it'd be.
 

RaffoBaffo

Ex-Newser of the late Berserk Chronicles
Aazealh said:
Sorry to say, but no source is cited for this particular information in that Wikipedia article... I'm curious to know where it is written in the Bible.
I don't know :???:
I will do a research

EDIT:

Lucifer was the Creator's finest creation: the angel Samael, called Lucifer. It means "the bringer of light." Of all the angels he was the wisest, the most beautiful, the most poweful.Saving only the Creator, he is, perhaps, the most powerful being there is.
Samael is the "chief of Satans" (Deut. R. xi. 9; Jellinek, "B. H." i. 125), quite in the sense of "the prince of the devils" mentioned in Matt. ix. 34; but, on the other hand, he is "the great prince in heaven." (Pirḳe R. El. xiii., beginning), who rules over angels and powers (ib.; Martyrdom of Isaiah, ii. 2). As the incarnation of evil he is the celestial patron of the sinful empire of Rome, with which Edom and Esau are identified (Tan. on Gen. xxxii. 35; Jellinek, l.c. vi. 31, 109, etc.). He flies through the air like a bird (Targ. to Job xxviii. 7), and, while the ḥayyot and ofannim have only six wings, he has twelve, and commands a whole army of demons (Pirḳe R. El. xiii.). In so far as he is identified with the serpent ("J. Q. R." vi. 12), with carnal desire (Yeẓer ha-Ra'), and with the angel of death, all legends associated with Satan refer equally to him, while as a miscreant he is compared to Belial ( = "worthless"; see collection of material in Bousset, "Antichrist," pp. 99-101).
All these descriptions of Samael show that he was regarded simply as the principle of evil that brought upon Israel and Judah every misfortune that befell them. Even at the creation of the world he was Lucifer, who ever sought evil and who began his malignant activity with Adam. His opponent is Michael, who represents the beneficent principle, and who frequently comes into conflict with him (comp. Jew. Encyc. viii. 536 et seq.; Lucken, "Michael," pp. 22 et seq.).
In traditions concerning the rebellion of the angels in heaven (PdRE 13–14 (1852)), he is the leader of the rebel armies. Prior to his defeat he had 12 wings, and his place was higher than the ḥayyot ("holy heavenly creatures") and the seraphim. Several tasks are attributed to him: Samael is in charge of all the nations but has no power over Israel except on the Day of Atonement, when the scapegoat serves as bribe for him (ibid. 46).
This is all I've found
 
By looking at the insignia:


It reminded me the illustration on the cover of volume 18:
http://www.skullknight.net/encyclopedia/merchandise/manga/images/18high.jpg

Hope that we get the chance to see Griffith in this form, sooner or later! :griffnotevil:
 

Aazealh

そうはいかぬ
Staff member
RaffoBaffo said:
This is all I've found
Ok, thanks anyway. This notion concerning Samael seems to stem from the Pirke deRabbi Eliezer then.

The Beast of Darkness said:
By looking at the insignia:

It reminded me the illustration on the cover of volume 18
I agree, the wing motif in general is reminiscent of that illustration.
 
Lucifer was a but unlike other Seraphim who had six wings, Lucifer was featured to have twelve wings. :badbone:

I've never heard of this. What's your source?
My interest in religion is rather rudimentary but perhaps I can shed a bit a light concerning that.

First of all, Lucifer was a Seraphim but has only six wings Cherub.
Sammael (jewish lore, Angel of death) has according to jewish legends 12 wings.
So, no definite source with name and date, only a quote:
"that great serpent with 12 wings that draws after him, in his fall, the solar system."

Sammael's etymology is "Venom of God". He's referred to as accuser, destroyer and seducer hence
he's also known as Satan. (One might argue that as well, since the Book of Enoch, the old Testament
and other sources, depict them as different beings (i.e. Satan=Sataniel))

Conclusion:
Lucifer =/= Satan (translation error, a misreading of Isaiah 14:12)
Lucifer: 6 4 wings (Seraphim Cherub)
Sammael (or Satan): 12 wings (source: jewish legends)
 
Top Bottom