Game of Thrones TV [spoilers]

XionHorsey

Hi! Hi!
I know that the world Tolkien crafted wasn't all sunshine and rainbows, but those dark moments in The Lord of the Rings served as gripping challenges that made our main heroes' triumph over evil all that more fulfilling, instead of serving as a way to shock readers.

Being seen as a liberator made sense in Essos, where a large amount of it's culture is built on slavery, but why in Westeros?
To liberate them from Cersei? I guess Dany didn't have a very good propaganda machine which is odd considering that she had Tyrion, Jon, and Varys. I guess they didn't think about that. Bleh.
 
Being seen as a liberator made sense in Essos, where a large amount of it's culture is built on slavery, but why in Westeros?
I apologize. I was jokingly comparing Dany to Bush at the beginning of the Iraq War.

What I mean is Dany’s family had drilled it into her head that the Iron Throne was rightfully theirs, that it had been stolen from them, that the people of Westeros yearned for their rightful ruler, etc. So I think she essentially expected the triumphant army marching down the street as adoring crowds cheered and threw flower petals at them stereotype.
 
I apologize. I was jokingly comparing Dany to Bush at the beginning of the Iraq War.

What I mean is Dany’s family had drilled it into her head that the Iron Throne was rightfully theirs, that it had been stolen from them, that the people of Westeros yearned for their rightful ruler, etc. So I think she essentially expected the triumphant army marching down the street as adoring crowds cheered and threw flower petals at them stereotype.
I get where you're coming from. I suppose "spreading liberty and democracy" is the modern imperialist rhetoric akin to the ancient "we're bringing the light of civilization to the barbarians"

Overall, I agree with your view that Dany's conquest of Westeros is largely a form of wish fulfillment. Peasants in a feudal system care more about whether their lord or lady treats them well, not what banner they fly. Rather sad that Martin's taking her down this path; I thought in time that she'd make a great empress of a massive empire on the eastern continent (the part of the world where people actually want her there).
 

XionHorsey

Hi! Hi!
I get where you're coming from. I suppose "spreading liberty and democracy" is the modern imperialist rhetoric akin to the ancient "we're bringing the light of civilization to the barbarians"

Overall, I agree with your view that Dany's conquest of Westeros is largely a form of wish fulfillment. Peasants in a feudal system care more about whether their lord or lady treats them well, not what banner they fly. Rather sad that Martin's taking her down this path; I thought in time that she'd make a great empress of a massive empire on the eastern continent (the part of the world where people actually want her there).
Yea, that's the thing. She said it herself that she's popular on Essos. She should have just gone back there where she's more familiar with the people there. That would have been one hell of a subversion.
 
Dumpster fire.

Dany, breaker of chains.

Dany, she's not her father. D&D

Also D&D: Have her kill all of her future people and innocents.

Bran sits on the throne. Fuck this show.
 

Scorpio

Courtesy of Grail's doodling.
I'll catch up on this thread a little later, but I just wanted to say...

D&D are the biggest hack frauds I've ever seen.

/edit
and also link this:
 

jackson_hurley

even the horses are cut in half!
Look for their triumphant return in ... True Detective Season 4.
And a possible Star wars trilogy...

The "gore was nice" is one of my only good point of that episode. I still think they should have switched ep 1-3 with 4-6 considering that either way the fight at King's Landing would still have been one sided. Cersei and Jaime deserved a better ending then that too. Euron should have perished on his ship. Only one left and it's not gonna get better.. I'm starting to think the Viserys might not have been worse then Danearys.
:ganishka:
 

Griffith

My posts are better.
Look for their triumphant return in ... True Detective Season 4.
If the dialogue is anything like their inside the episode chats there's going to be a lot of, "Clearly this is a crime scene, and as the true detectives, we need to investigate it to hopefully solve that crime."

Great Thrones trolling BTW, this reminds me of when calling any prominent pairing "True Detective season 2" was all the rage. My favorite was Arya and The Hound. =)

And a possible Star wars trilogy...
Hopefully they're fucking that up that shot as we speak.

The "gore was nice" is one of my only good point of that episode. I still think they should have switched ep 1-3 with 4-6 considering that either way the fight at King's Landing would still have been one sided.
Yeah, she could have done this any time and likely minimized the casualties before: just melt down the Red Keep with Cersei and her guards inside and you're done. "You're free, I rule now, don't worry I'm benevolent, but I do have three dragons... OH, and there's a threat to the North!" That would have been ideal, but I will say I think that's part of what put Dany into a fit of pique even as, or even because, they surrendered so easily at that point. She already needlessly lost all her friends and two of her children and, from her POV, was surrounded by bad or traitorous advisers that basically just held her back by reining her in and trying to control her. So, a big "whoopsie" by everyone all around for all the half measures up to this point. Still, another case where we could have used a full season to develop, marinate, and properly cook this plot.

Cersei and Jaime deserved a better ending then that too. Euron should have perished on his ship. Only one left and it's not gonna get better.. I'm starting to think the Viserys might not have been worse then Danearys.
:ganishka:
Cersei and Jaime strangely got more sympathy (was this the true love of the series?) but less gravitas than they deserved (a big fake green screen death), to the point I kind of hope Cersei is somehow still alive. Yeah, I'm not sure why they felt like this incarnation of Euron needed anything more to do than burn, especially this contrived fight he likely would care even less about than Jaime.As for Viserys, he certainly was and would have been weaker, but then that's why he didn't and never would have made it. Boy, great for Cersei's legacy BTW. I mean, I know she's the worst, but this really puts into perspective that she really wasn't hurting the people much more than any of these crappy rulers. Dany is the REAL DEAL genocidal tyrant!
 
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jackson_hurley

even the horses are cut in half!
Cersei and Jaime strangely got more sympathy (was this the true love of the series?) but less gravitas than they deserved (a big fake green screen death), to the point I kind of hope Cersei is somehow still alive. Yeah, I'm not sure why they felt like this incarnation of Euron needed anything more to do than burn, especially this contrived fight he likely would care even less about than Jaime.As for Viserys, he certainly was and would have been weaker, but then that's why he didn't and never would have made it. Boy, great for Cersei's legacy BTW. I mean, I know she's the worst, but this really puts into perspective that she really wasn't hurting the people much more than any of these crappy rulers. Dany is the REAL DEAL genocidal tyrant!
Yeah Cersei was a bad one but at least she wasnt straight pipe killing them for the sake of winning (altough she was down with putting her people in the danger zone just so Dany would look bad (and it worked)). I'm glad to see that Jaime got his hand back too...

:ganishka::ganishka:

At least if it would have been Viserys, the people would not have burned since we know he would have sold the eggs for ships and an army. He would have either got killed in trying or be another despot on the throne and the cycle would have started all over. And what happened to "break the Wheel" ?! Dany definitely got further then this concept the further we got near the end. Extermist ideas are not always the best scenarios. Like it's been said already, she would have been a better ruler in Meereen instead of thinking that everybody would be all happy to see her in Westeros. Like Cersi said to Joffrey in the beginning, you cant invade a place and then asked for them to send troops to you right after you have invaded their land.
 

Griffith

My posts are better.
I continue to put way too much thought in/give credit to this show, to the point I wondered if your image is a spoiler leak that they'll use Bran to mind travel to this point and stop Dany from going off ala Endgame! Other examples include when I thought Tyrion's bell plan would backfire because Cersei would ring them as a fake out to stop their attack and THAT would make Dany snap, or that Varys' kitchen spy will poison Dany and he'll stop her from the grave that way if not with his notes. Then the reality from D&D is always, "We showed Varys being a sneaky spy to show he's a sneaky spy before he was killed for being a sneaky spy, durrrrr." It's like some twisted version of Occom's razor where the dumbest solution is the most likely. I'm basically looking for grandmaster level chess strategy while watching the the world tic-tac-toe championship.
 

XionHorsey

Hi! Hi!
I just keep thinking CONTRIVED! CONTRIVED! CONTRIVED! No one is thinking! GAH!

Cleganebowl was excellent though. That was the one good thing. Felt ZERO for Cersei/Jaime. In fact, I wish Dany looked at them both and said "DRACARYS". I would have preferred it if Euron was the one who got away. Let him be the Karma Houdini.

I miss the Night King. >:(

Oh, and those who've read Reaper's Gale will know what I'm talking about
Dany went by way of Redmask. He failed because his thirst for vengeance caused him to lose his humanity and in doing do, caused a great of death. His lizard guardians end up killing him.

Makes me wonder if D/D read Malazan and if they have, STAY AWAY FROM MAKING IT INTO TV!!!11
 
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Griffith

My posts are better.
I was re-watching portions of the episode and was struck by how it was, unlike The Long Night, gorgeous (the dragon, the fight in the castle, the pale horse) and decisive it was. Basically like a concluding GoT movie (and we'll see how it combines with the finale in that fashion). My point is twofold, one being I'm focusing too much on the negative and not enjoying what was good (plus, so many people have climbed on the GoT hate-wagon now, abd for dumb reasons like dog goodbyes, I'm feeling crowded and looking for a way off =), and two, it's the perfect episode for people that are familiar with the books or early seasons, but gave up on the show, to check back in and see what becomes of all these characters (Wally, Aaz, I'm looking at you). It really is like the movie based on the books or to conclude the series. That's probably the most charitable reading of this season and its intent; trading in the bookish slow-burn for an action-packed cinematic climax.
 
I've no idea whether the finale pleased audiences, but just off of a first viewing I have to say that I feel very satisfied. I'll need more time to collect my thoughts but I really want to give a shout out to the beautiful direction and cinematography on display; the musicless walk of Tyrion and Jon through the barren wasteland that was once King's Landing and that incredible shot of pale and silver haired Dany standing atop the castle steps as Drogon's black wings stretch out behind her: a foreboding look at what she's truly become behind that beautiful exterior.
 

Griffith

My posts are better.
I'm happy Jon lived (and finally showed proper affection for his dog, I wonder if that was added later =), but I otherwise found all the arrangements rather... convenient, at best, and nonsensical otherwise.

I'll start with the dramatic tension with Dany being rather short-lived and simply taken care of; she was pretty reasonable, trusting and open to ruling with Jon too, so I'm surprised he didn't get stuck supporting a despot, but that would've taken time. As it was he went from supporting his Queen even after a massacre to killing her when she was trying to make nice. Drogon melting the throne was cool though, but who would have thought the most satisfyingly written character with the most agency in the episode would be the dragon? Everything after that, and you could debate him not toasting Jon, made little sense.

Like why did the Unsullied care about who was made King, what they think, or the politics there in general? They'd have more likely killed Jon and anyone in their way immediately (I thought Dany simply "disappearing" with Drogon might be what saved him). Why'd the Lords go along with this arrangement for that matter, and with Bran (super uninspiring choice)? Why didn't the whole thing unravel when Sansa declared the North independent? Everyone else: "Yeah, yeah, we want independence too!" If Bran was a good King he should have said as much and nipped it in the bud. Nobody brought up or cared that Jon was really Aegon Targaryen, rightful heir, and what to do about that, if anything (I guess nothing)? And if Bran is the all-important memory of humanity or whatever that needed to survive at all costs, shouldn't they NOT immediately put the biggest target in the world on his back? Anyway, there's probably a dozen more conflicts ignored (Bran is Jon's brother/coisin), but it basically had no connection to the logic of everything or anything we've seen the last eight seasons, and was pretty cheesy. Sam introducing democracy for laughs wasn't much worse than what they actually ended up doing, which wasn't much of a change either; that council ruling would've made more sense.

Again, I'm glad Jon made it back north like I wanted, but it wasn't even his choice and he showed little agency in it, so, like everything else the past two seasons, how they got there leaves a lot to be desired, and more questions than satisfactory conclusions.
 
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XionHorsey

Hi! Hi!
I've heard about what happened, and it WOULD have been satisfying if the writing wasn't so damned sloppy and well, forced. Honestly, Bran wouldn't be a bad choice at all because I think he would be unbiased and very hard to shake emotionally, if at all. It helps that he as the knowledge of the Three Eyed Ravens.

The one good thing was Drogon melting the throne. The Dany fans are certainly angered. It almost made me turn on Sansa, and I've always liked her more than Dany. Yoiks. Still, Dany was done dirty. I want the Night King back, damnit!

At least #No one sits on the Iron throne technically won. That's the one I voted for! LOL!
 

Griffith

My posts are better.
So with some quick episode scanning I figured out you could split the last 4 episodes of thrones into two roughly 40 minute episodes (there's actually very natural breakpoints in each), making 10 less stuffed ones and adding time and pace between episodes for travel, breathing space, or for feelings to settle and/or cement, etc. Season 7 is actually harder because it and its episodes are more normal, but the last 2 can also be naturally split this way and then I think you turn the first 3 episodes into 4 because they just stuffed a shit-ton in them collectively. Actually, splitting the overstuffed though not overlong third episode is probably best despite the short 30+ minute runtimes.

Anyway, without further ado, my super nerdy proposal for restructured 10 episode GoT final seasons, with episode titles and estimated minutes included ("please forgive the crudity of this model"). New episode titles are in quotes. All writers, directors, etc remain the same since episodes are only split.

Season 7:

Dragonstone 59min
Stormborn 59
The Queen's Justice 33
"Queen of Thorns" 34
The Spoils of War 50
Eastwatch 59
Beyond the Wall 39
"Ice & Fire" 34
"The Dragonpit" 46
The Dragon and the Wolf 37

Season 8:

Winterfell 54
A Knight of the Seven Kingdoms 58
The Long Night 43
"The God of Death" 42
The Last of the Starks 47
"Dracarys" 34
"King's Landing" 46
The Bells 37
The Iron Throne 46
"A Dream of Spring" 37

I don't know why the showrunners didn't just do this though, and/or beef up or add some scenes to fill them out, both from a storytelling and length standpoint. Replace the cut corners, so to speak. It's like they went with their first draft and were so into reducing and refining instead of expanding on anything, even needing stortelling in the previous episode and after-show segments.

I think part of it was wanting to make movies essentially, like they were, and thought everyone would be, into the feature length episodes, like, "we're going all out and expanding TV to a another level!" Which, while technically true, doesn't mean as much if you sacrifice the foundational storytelling basics of your own show in the process. Super cynical take everyone denies: they did EVERYTHING the way they did, big hurried cinematic action episodes, to basically audition for and facilitate their jump to Star Wars. I bet Bob Iger was getting early cuts of these extra cinematic episodes. =)

Rewatching some of it, I don't think the writing was really worse than the Dorne nonsense in season 5 or a lot of season 5/6 stuff in general, but it all benefitted from fitting into a greater, sounder narrative structure that would accommodate those points of weakness so you could tolerate it and come away thinking, "that part was bad" instead of, "geez, it's bad now" or "it's ending badly" because there's not going to be an opportunity to do better. The show basically always had some suspect writing, but like a volume shooter it's better to go 8 for 20 than 4 for 10. Quanity was their friend.

In this case, breaking the episodes up would have meant a lot more decent character driven or action episodes than overstuffed one's marred by fatally flawed or rushed moments. Even those moments would benefit from being more centrally focused; the death of Rhaegal for example, which dragged down a whole episode that was at least OK and largely about something else before that. Plus, if the whole episode was essentially about the dragon dying, it feels a lot less like another random moment among others, but is seemingly given the breadth and focus it deserves.

Food for thought before this thread sinks forever or gets revived for whatever bad spinoff(s) will come.
 
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