Game of Thrones TV [spoilers]

This latest episode was a bit of a bummer, I'm pretty annoyed that Femto was killed with a Resonance dagger by Isidro, destroying all God Hand members and apostles, did Miura think it was wise killing the main villain in the middle of the arc? Now the only villain left to fight is Captain Bonebeard, and he's nowhere near as threatening as the powerful supernatural threat that was being built up since the beginning of the series.
 
80 painful dark minutes of nothing happening. The action sequences in this show get worse and worse and worse. Really don’t think they’d built up the Others effectively enough. Glad to see my prediction was right and we can just move on from the yawn fest CGI battle to get back to the game a bit. But I’m pretty convinced now they have no idea how to wrap this up. At least next episode forecast: sunny with a chance of seeing the fucking episode!
 

Griffith

My posts are better.
I'm glad the rest of the internet finally caught the stench this show has been giving off the last four years. I'm giving this episode 3 Uns: it was initially underwhelming, ultimately deeply unsatisfying, and to the point it completely undermined the entire proceedings. And there's literally nowhere to go from here but DOWN now! I knew it was possible they'd reveal the Night King to be a jumped up B plot, but hoped they wouldn't actually sabotage the story that way after seven seasons of teasing it as the REAL lurking existential threat, and an entire season of direct buildup only to go... Now on to the Iron Throne!

This could work in a book, and they're probably taking their cue from Martin because they haven't proven very creative otherwise, but on a screen this is the equivalent of blowing up the Death Star half way through Star Wars and then hunting Tarkin for war crimes the rest of the movie. In a live, visual medium with a runtime I need all this shit to crescendo and climax simultaneously at the appropriate time. You can't have hundreds of pages and chapters of falling action and epilogues or simultaneous activity in a live action show. It's gotta flow together somehow.

You can't save humanity as the opening act and then duke it out over furniture as the headliner. I'm sure they'll try too, "Humans we're the real bad guys all along, amirite!?" But it's already a failure to me. It basically means everything from here on out will seem ancillary and arbitrary. Is Jon Snow or Dany intrinsically more worthy of the Throne than anyone else? Well, we won't really know because neither proved it! Arya for Queen of Mankind, I guess.

Maybe Cersei SHOULD win, she's played the game best and as a commentary it's about the best they have left. The good guys saved humanity only to be finished off by the worst it has to offer; the people we really make our leaders. It should go on to tell us she was remembered, per her directives, as one of the greatest rulers the Kingdom ever had after wiping out the bloodthirsty remnants of the traitorous Starks and mad Targaryens. The End, fuckers!

Another reason this decision was fatally flawed: the show only works on a big spectacle level now that would be best resolved by the ultimate good vs evil, life vs death battle. The political stuff has devolved to Bronn being handed a crossbow of special significance and being told he'll get a dump truck full of gold if he kills his buddies, the Queen's brothers. That's what passes for political intrigue on the show these days! Remember when we all thought they were just dumping Littlefinger for expediency? I think that's the best they can really do without cribbing off the books. I can't wait to see the stirring debate over Jon vs. Dany for the Throne from the same dull minds, "No, I am the one who is the chosen one who should rule!" "No, I am the one that's the one!" (After the show: "They both think and have a claim to being the one, but two can't be the one, so which one's the one? Very complicated.. duuuurrr").

They'd have been better off staging dragon and ice monster fights until the end because at least those SHOULD be loud, dumb and blunt and resolve things in an organic manner, "The winner is ______ because they saved humanity and everyone else is dead." Everyone is now being clued in to the fact there isn't some brilliant design at work here that's going to seal together all the cracks; it's now a book report by two guys that literally didn't have the book.
 
Last edited:

XionHorsey

Hi! Hi!
Someone on the Second Apocalypse forum as a great analogy:

"It's like someone asks if you like pizza and if you'd like some, and you say "yeah, of course!" So, you start smelling it, and it smells so damn good, and then they cart out some Little Caesars. When you rightly question your urge to inflict harm on them over this charade they say "what's your problem, I thought you said you liked pizza!"

The NK going down the way he did and how everything ended that easily. BOO! And I like Arya a lot.
 
I can only agree with what’s been said so far, the only thing I can add is that, to add insult to injury, the picture quality when I watched was awful. At first I thought it was my TV/wi-fi/phone but reading some comments I realized I wasn’t alone. Someone said it best when they said that the episode looked like a DVD rip. A truly disappointing experience. :judo:
 
I can only agree with what’s been said so far, the only thing I can add is that, to add insult to injury, the picture quality when I watched was awful. At first I thought it was my TV/wi-fi/phone but reading some comments I realized I wasn’t alone. Someone said it best when they said that the episode looked like a DVD rip. A truly disappointing experience. :judo:

I watched on my 4k projector and the standard pic was causing all kinds of black distortion until I adjusted the gamma. Didn't know it was such a wide spread issue until morning.
 
I watched on my 4k projector and the standard pic was causing all kinds of black distortion until I adjusted the gamma. Didn't know it was such a wide spread issue until morning.
Good that you found a solution! I’m not sure the episode warrants a re-watch, even with perfect picture, though.
 
I’m not even sure what to say about this show anymore. Whatever expectations I had for the conclusion of the story have been completely obliterated by the last two episodes. :sad:
 

XionHorsey

Hi! Hi!
Yea, this episode did not sit well with me. It wasn't bad, but I just felt like something was terribly wrong. I don't like the "Dany goes mad" route because Cersei could already count as one. Like god forbid a woman be passionate and rash. I do agree that Dany would not make a good long term ruler for those reasons, but it doesn't make her mad nor does it make her automatically a despot.

A lot of it stems from feeling contrived. How could they NOT see Euron's boats, especially from above? Missendei conveniently being captured. Those are just a couple examples.

It looks like they're trying to be subversive, but it's not always a good thing and doing it for the sake of doing it is not a good thing either. And then there's the leaks. I won't mention them here, but if they're true, then I wonder if I should even bother getting to the end. So much of it just give me the BLEHS. I don't even know which way is up or what to believe. Course that's HBO's doing as they've upped security a great deal and have been shooting decoy scenes.
 

jackson_hurley

even the horses are cut in half!
How could they NOT see Euron's boats, especially from above?
Apparantly, from the commentary of the showrunners, they did not see the boats because she forgot about it... Very lame excuse if you ask me. I mean doesnt she have a lot of adviser and all to plan her move with her? How could they all have forgot about them.

Anyways, the Bronn scene was terrible and came out of nowhere. That show is dead to me. I'm still gonna Watch the last two épisodes of course but I'm not expecting anything at point. Prepare to have a lot of shock value from the last two ones.

And then there's the leaks.
I havent seen them but from what I heard, it doesnt look good indeed.
 
The spoilers were posted a year ago and are spot on from the last few episodes. They are legit. I read them because I no longer care about the forced subversion. I'm sure it'll happen (the end results) the same way as the books, but they'll come together with weight behind WHY. Everything will make sense, where as in this show dumb and dumber are the writers. Books will likely never be finished be finished by Martin.
 
Last edited:

XionHorsey

Hi! Hi!
If they're from Friki, then yea, the first 3-4 episodes were legit, but beyond that, they're said to be nothing more than speculations.
 

Kompozinaut

Grail Serpico!
Ramins score made it hard to nitpick at first. That piano was beautiful and I was absorbed. Soon after I had a "wait, hold the hell up" lightbulb flickering. Everyone has nailed the problems that are obvious. If only the payoff was as good as the drama attached.
I agree. I thought the tension at the end of the battle was great, and the music was especially wonderful (even if it felt like to belonged to Westworld more than GoT, imo), but in a lot of ways I think they were trying to get another Light of the Seven moment from the season 6 premier, and it just didn't quite deliver.

A lot of it stems from feeling contrived.
Yeah. We're in the "make people stupid to drive drama" phase, and it's horrible. Losing Viserion to the Night King's javelin was impactful and distressing in a good way, and that's because he wasn't clearly defined, we didn't know what he or the White Walkers were completely capable of. But here, on the southern side of the continent, we've established scorpions exist, and they were made specifically to kill dragons. Dany was fired at already. She knows what's up.

But they want us to believe that she "forgot" as she's actively on her way into enemy territory? Really? That's pathetic.
 

Griffith

My posts are better.
I haven't been keeping up with the thread to avoid leaks, but here are some thoughts immediately following the episode...

Another perfect example of an episode that should have been at least two. It basically already was two stitched together so I don't know why they didn't just make it official and fill in all the blanks, show their work, and add some character development. It's clearly all about the destination at any cost at this point.

l

The stakes are all over the place. Every character is likely to either be killed and/or ruined, save for maybe Arya and the Hound, but even their little road trip is a little too cute. Poor Brienne of fucking Tarth is now some spurned, crying girlfriend to the bad boy in the span of one episode!

I'm probably most disappointed in Cersei for not killing Dany and everyone immediately. She plays by no rules, the only reason she cooperated before was presumably dragons and now that's eliminated as a trump card. She should have shot Tyrion dead for his foolishness but they only tease it because we need more "meaningful scenes" with him. But it only proves none of these scenes are meaningful, they're just pantomiming plot motion with no action. They're all action figures being played with by children. Cersei should have immediately killed Tyrion when he hinted at her child because he couldn't know unless it predated her union with Euron. Maybe Euron doesn't care anyway because he knows Cersei hates/will try to kill him and vice versa, but there's so little there it's not even fun to speculate. I feel like I'm doing the work for the show.

Almost no weight is given to Sansa betraying Jon's confidence and potentially destroying the country a scene after promising to keep his secret. They have to explain it after the episode, "She's clearly given this a lot if thought and sees many moves ahead..." Does she? Do you guys? She could have just signed Jon's death warrant with that. He's a sitting duck now for something he never wanted. Dany, though she acted about as self serving as possible, was completely correct that the information dooms her. The only solution is marriage, which Tyrion hits on the head, but Varys is determined to continue this cycle of endless turnover and war he's basically perpetrated the whole show as like the secret villain.

What's weird is I keep expecting them to sloppily kill everybody because they think that's hardcore, but they haven't even shown the balls to do it when called for, ala the Tyrion example. They're trying to keep all the main characters alive for the finale even though they can't write a scenario that believably supports it. They just need to move everyone into position for their final "iconic moment": the Hound dies killing the Mountain, Arya kills someone (Cersei, Dany?), or Jaime dies with/kills Cersei, Jon dies, sits on the throne or exiles himself to the real north, etc.

One lf the funny things about Dany rightfully shitting on Tyrion's bad plans all this season is it's basically a commentary on the plans the showrunners gave him just so we could arrive here. They're basically rushing and stalling at the same time to maximize these last episodes but it's having the opposote effect and destroying the dramatic movement of the show.

I'm still incredulous that these guys had a blank check to take as long as they needed to do this and said, "Yep, we're good. Give us like two half seasons to wrap up the last 60 hours of story we've been slowrolling all this time. We can't even be bothered to follow the regular season structure and arc we've had the whole way for consistency." Unfortunately, the overarching shortcuts they've had to make has ruined the show on a micro and macro level, bad scene to scene writing and an overall plot that makes no sense. This is like the unmaking of must-see television.

I suspect they were just over it, didn't have the roadmap of the books to guide them or at least fall back on, and didn't want to put in the work filling in the blanks. Or couldn't. To be fair, adapting those books and finishing their story yourself are very different projects and not altogether fair to expect them to excel at both, but this is a pretty bad non-attempt that makes them look like complete hacks. They should have just hired more writers, directors and producers to do the heavy lifting on two, or three, more seasons in this time because they've really dropped the ball.


That's pretty much what I've been saying since season 7 and "8" were announced in this janky structure where these guys are basically saying they can only crank out 13 more episodes jam-packed with every remaining plot point stuffed in if you give them 3 years to do it. Yeah, that doesn't work and in fact sucks.

Can't wait until Sunday!
 
Last edited:
Another perfect example of an episode that should have been at least two. It basically already was two stitched together so I don't know why they didn't just make it official and fill in all the blanks, show their work, and add some character development. It's clearly all about the destination at any cost at this point.

That pretty much what I've been saying since season 7 and "8" were announced in this janky structure where these guys are basically saying they can only crank out 13 more episodes jam-packed with every remaining plot point stuffed in if you give them 3 years to do it. Yeah, that doesn't work and in fact sucks.
I think the most impressive thing about the last couple seasons of this show is that they've managed to simultaneously make every episode feel tedious and meandering and the overall plot of the show feel rushed. It's really some kind of case study for meditations on how humans experience time or something. I felt like Episodes 1, 2, and 4 this season were all filler, and Episode 3 only failed to be by way of the fact that it wraps up a major plot point. Still, far too much has happened across these four episodes. I think the writers fancy that the key elements of the show are the dialogue and the action sequences, so they're just kind of stringing them together with scenarios that strain audience credulity. What's worse, is the action sequences, when we can even see them, are completely preposterous and feel very low-stakes with all the main characters clearly plot armored for a final showdown, and the dialogue is full of dick jokes and endless yammering about where the plot is going to go next. It doubly bums me out that they could reasonably pace what they really wanted to show us over last season and this one if they hadn't spent so much goddamn time last season on a throwaway Littlefinger misfired plot that totally degraded that character and on having the Ross and Rachel of Westeros dance around Dragonstone for an entire season before giving a fanservice sex scene.
 

Griffith

My posts are better.
Right on, and sadly, because I do this, I've been thinking how one could try to best "fix" these seasons. The simplest solution I figure would be to take the 872 minutes of seasons 7/8, or really 7 part 1 and 2, and split them into 20 approximately 44 minute episodes, give or take 10 minutes for proper starting and stopping points by events, setting, or characters. Doing that alone would at least seperate and more naturally pace out events with the time "between" episodes, such as when everyone departed Winterfell in this one and suddenly they're at Dragonstone and King's Landing. If there's deleted scenes where they hid the character development, add those back in, there's plenty of time! The big problem other than the challenge of having these episodes still make their own individual sense... there's so much junk and it's so systemic at this point, it becomes a question if it wouldn't be better cutting it down to one season, minus the fat, but then you're really getting into a can of worms subjectively reducing an already terminally anemic story. So really, the answer is there's no good answer and this isn't worth thinking about further. It's basically a two part 13 episode final season that's really rushed from a storytelling standpoint and it disappointingly shows. Maybe the best solution would be to pretend the first three episodes of 8 are just the last three of 7 and that's the series! 70 episodes and out, the rest doesn't matter anyway and will just underwhelm.

I hope they prove me wrong with spectacle and shock value at least (ala season 6), stick the landing and retroactively validate or minimize the sins to get here (much like season's past, 5 sucked but Hardhome made you forget, and hey, at least they put in the time and effort), but that's about as realistic a chance there is of coming away from this remotely satisfied.
 
I hope they prove me wrong with spectacle and shock value at least (ala season 6), stick the landing and retroactively validate or minimize the sins to get here (much like season's past, 5 sucked but Hardhome made you forget, and hey, at least they put in the time and effort), but that's about as realistic a chance there is of coming away from this remotely satisfied.
I think the thing that this season has shown me is people finally getting on my page about the shock value season finales. I was actually deeply irritated that an intra-royal battle involving the church was a plot that literally just imploded, with the most powerful individual in that situation who knew what Cersei did and disapproved, Tommen, killing himself instead of calling for a trial of the queen mother. Can you imagine a situation where Cersei and Jaime had to retreat from King's Landing as their son became ever more zealous and mount a war to finish up Cersei's prophecy? Much better season 7 than "PLEASHE SHANSHA" and boring expensive action sequences north of the wall.

I think you're right on with the broader strokes of your method of fixing seasons 7 and 8 if we have to keep seasons 5 and 6 as they are, but I really think that the issues go a lot deeper. D&D, as evidenced by the exclusion of Cthulhu Euron and zombie Catelyn, as well as the completely unsatisfying dropping of the Lord of Light and Faceless Men plotlines, as well as a host of random side characters they included in the show for no reason (Quaithe???), don't care much for the high fantasy aspect of the series. Great, I didn't sign up for the show for that stuff 'cause you guys downplayed it so much, and Berserk is literally the only fantasy series that has really captured my imagination super effectively since I was a kid (I guess unless you include Bloodborne lore). So instead of putting together a show that gradually returns to the issue of all the ice zombies north of the wall but puts a very obvious Achilles heel in the mix for plot convenience, why not go the other direction and make the threat more abstract? Make the show about the struggle for the Iron Throne, show some doubts and uncertainties even among the faithful about what really lies beyond the wall, and then end the series after all the good politicking with the ominous threat of the white walkers continuing to linger. Someone else who gives a fuck about high fantasy can then go ahead and make a show about that, since D&D clearly didn't want to. But now, we have a show that's completely disappointed fantasy fans and has completely ruined all the politics.

The real question here is, what shows do you guys recommend that capture that palace intrigue feeling from the first several seasons? Whether it's medieval or not, that's the kind of show I wanna get invested in instead of continuing to waste so much of my time as I have for four weeks wandering the Internet marinating in alternating disappointment and bemused disbelief.
 

Griffith

My posts are better.
I think the thing that this season has shown me is people finally getting on my page about the shock value season finales.
I don't know what took everyone so long to see the cracks. Even in the early seasons I thought the show was at best a yeoman-like effort, paint by numbers, rather than a virtuoso display, with perhaps the exception of season 4 when the show was at its absolute creative and cultural peak.

GoT Season Rankings:

1. Four
2. One
3. Three
4. Two
5. Six
6. Seven
7. Five
8. Eight

You could convince me to switch the 2/3, 4/5, and 6/7 positions for different reasons because they're either too close to call or have different strengths.

I think you're right on with the broader strokes of your method of fixing seasons 7 and 8 if we have to keep seasons 5 and 6 as they are, but I really think that the issues go a lot deeper. D&D, as evidenced by the exclusion of Cthulhu Euron and zombie Catelyn, as well as the completely unsatisfying dropping of the Lord of Light and Faceless Men plotlines, as well as a host of random side characters they included in the show for no reason (Quaithe???), don't care much for the high fantasy aspect of the series.
But now, we have a show that's completely disappointed fantasy fans and has completely ruined all the politics.
You're right, for the most part they clearly sidelined the fantasy elements throughout, and the problems with the writing and structure go even deeper than that (so it was never perfect by any means). But what's really made it go from messy to sloppy to downright bad, besides the obvious rush job, is how the show pivoted back to fantasy at the end of season 5, most of season 6, then completely so in season 7, to the point everything was about that, even the happenings in King's Landing. Once you do that there's no going back, but they basically revealed that story to be just the culmination of Jon's Wall subplot, like Dany's rise overseas; now back to the Throne since everyone's been brought together by this long lingering existential threat we extinguished about an hour after it actually got going. Great plot device! Like I said, the Night King and Throne plots needed to dovetail together for the climax to properly crescendo, or Cersei and the throne needed to meet some ignominious resolution in the meantime. It just couldn't be paramount anymore, or worthiness for the Throne, and true leadership of humanity, needed to also be synonmous with and proven through winning this fight (maybe Arya will marry Gendry after all when she installs him as King =).

The real question here is, what shows do you guys recommend that capture that palace intrigue feeling from the first several seasons? Whether it's medieval or not, that's the kind of show I wanna get invested in instead of continuing to waste so much of my time as I have for four weeks wandering the Internet marinating in alternating disappointment and bemused disbelief.
First thing that came to mind if you haven't already seen it: The Sopranos. "Family" intrigue galore, and way, way, way, WAY better written than this shit. The first season of that show is a fucking novel and this is like a goddamn picture book.
 
Last edited:
But what's really made it go from messy to sloppy to downright bad, besides the obvious rush job, is how the show pivoted back to fantasy at the end of season 5, most of season 6, then completely so in season 7, to the point everything was about that, even the happenings in King's Landing.
Totally agree. Pick a show to write and write it. This could've been a really interesting fantasy show, a really interesting palace intrigue show, or both, but those elements need to inform one another if they're both gonna be around. Clearly, they've chosen to oscillate and used the fantasy elements as writing shortcuts to the political situation they wanted to resolve at the end of the show.

First thing that came to mind if you haven't already seen it: The Sopranos. "Family" intrigue galore, and way, way, way, WAY better written than this shit. The first season of that show is a fucking novel and this is like a goddamn picture book.
I've been so bad about checking out The Sopranos. It's pretty clearly some kind of masterpiece that I need to look into. Now that I've wasted almost eight seasons on this horse shit, I probably don't have much excuse to not invest the time in that show. I'll check it out soon. Speaking of, since it's an HBO show, I wonder given the context your article brings up, whether the HBO higher-ups are pissed at how poorly handled their golden goose has been the past two weeks (to say nothing of the past several years, :ganishka:). Disney seems to have shrugged off mass frustration with the direction of TLJ. I wonder if behind closed doors, there's some irate folks over at the network.
 

jackson_hurley

even the horses are cut in half!
I hope they prove me wrong with spectacle and shock value at least (ala season 6), stick the landing and retroactively validate or minimize the sins to get here (much like season's past, 5 sucked but Hardhome made you forget, and hey, at least they put in the time and effort), but that's about as realistic a chance there is of coming away from this remotely satisfied.
Season 5 was wayyyyy better then the mess of season 6 to be honest. Anyways starting from season 6 the show went downhill pretty fast.

Did you know that they almost skipped the Dorne plot? (Considering how badly they've done it, they should have left it out at that point.)
 

Griffith

My posts are better.
I've been so bad about checking out The Sopranos. It's pretty clearly some kind of masterpiece that I need to look into.
Yeah, it's got it's ups and downs, but upon review a couple years ago I was blown away how much better it was than even my favorites that came after, and after 20 years. The mafia and family politics, and how they intersect in sometimes shocking ways, might be just what you're looking for.

Speaking of, since it's an HBO show, I wonder given the context your article brings up, whether the HBO higher-ups are pissed at how poorly handled their golden goose has been the past two weeks (to say nothing of the past several years, :ganishka:). Disney seems to have shrugged off mass frustration with the direction of TLJ. I wonder if behind closed doors, there's some irate folks over at the network.
Well, they already Special Editioned that coffee cup out of there (it wasn't even Starbucks, the poor caterer didn't even get their 15 minutes out of it =)! But I don't know, AT&T just bought them and there's already some turnover at the top, so who knows who is there reacting to what and why. I mean, they can see what we see, and in any case they're probably pissed they didn't at least get more episodes out of a show that clearly called for them. It's usually the opposite problem with hit TV where they keep trying to milk the cow even after it's dead. Funny you brought up Disney and Star Wats since that's D&D's next stop. I know some are hoping they get Trevorrow'd over how badly they've mailed in this season but GoT is still hugely popular so probably not (then again, Jurassic World was an all time top grosser). I'm still skeptical anything comes of it because they actually need a good idea to produce: Thrawn Trilogy adaptation? =)

Season 5 was wayyyyy better then the mess of season 6 to be honest. Anyways starting from season 6 the show went downhill pretty fast.
You're probably right, that was the last properly methodical season, I just remember being bored and disappointed with it after season 4, like they we're kind of meandering as they ran out of book material, and I believe that's when the fast traveling started. Wheras I then saw 6 as a reinvention as an action show where they basically embraced their freedom to just do exciting set pieces and blow shit up; recapture the style of better seasons if not the substance. I mean, we thought they kind of stopped caring about the story then, but wow...

Did you know that they almost skipped the Dorne plot? (Considering how badly they've done it, they should have left it out at that point.)
Was that predominantly 5 or 6? I think I'm holding it against 5 but if I'm wrong that would further change my estimation of each, because that less than half-assed plot was like the preview of how they're handling everything now. So perfunctory and unfulfilling they might as well not have bothered, as you say.
 
Last edited:

jackson_hurley

even the horses are cut in half!
Was that predominantly 5 or 6? I think I'm holding it against 5 but if I'm wrong that would further change my estimation of each, because that less than half-assed plot was like the preview of how they're handling everything now. So perfunctory they might as well not have done it, anyway.
Well the plot started in s4 and was relatively following the source material. Then because they liked Oberyn's girlfriend performanced, they decided to centered the Dorne plot around her in s5. By doing that, they skipped most of the important characters from that plot. And then in s6 they ruined it even more at the beginning or end (this part is fuzzy a bit in my memory) of s6.

The sad thing is that they had so many potentiel with that plot if theyd followed it instead of trying to do something cool for the sake of it.
 
Top Bottom