Griffith
With the streak of a tear, Like morning dew
Skeleton said:Two years from now, you'll be defending Rogue One and wondering how the hell you got there.
Nah, I did hate TFA upon first viewing, I nitpicked every moment and physically rejected it like a foreign body. I had the opportunity to watch it again in a completely different setting shortly thereafter though, with all those expectations gone, and was able to just sit back and enjoy it and everything it did right by Star Wars, which was quite a lot.
I did not have this experience after multiple viewings of Rogue One, which had some neat stuff in it, but not the same stakes, purpose, or overall quality as TFA, which I think doubled as a better tribute to the original Star Wars too.
Aazealh said:Movies have been "considered good" while they absolutely sucked. It all depends on who's considering. If you want my opinion, then I think this movie has some good stuff in it, but I don't think it's firmly good as a whole. And that's because the good stuff is weighed down by the bad one. I think it's alright if you like Star Wars, but that's about it. I'd put it on the same level as Avengers 2.
Sure lots of sucky movies are hits, but I'm talking about this movie and it didn't suck and my point is acting like it does despite its strengths, especially for showing love to its source, is perplexing to me. As you say it depends on your criteria, but it was probably one of the best films of its kind produced that year, and probably better than alright if one DOESN'T care about Star Wars but just judges it as a movie-going experience. Basically, it could stand on its own as an action adventure movie but it obviously has plenty of "Star Wars" shit in it that clouds our judgement (to be continued...). So, it's just weird to me when it's cited by some fans as the reason the next Star Wars is doomed.
Aazealh said:Remix/reboot/remake, whatever. It's derivative and not in a good way as far as I'm concerned. And that's because I personally care about the plot, and I think the plot sucks. I think STARKILLER BASE is a fucking joke, and I find the idea of a Death Star XTREEM EDITION almost insulting. The mysterious evil leader looks like a giant from RE4, the Han Solo ship escape scene is corny as hell, the political stuff is paper-thin, the resistance's struggle has zero gravitas to it, some side characters take up screen time uselessly, Leia can't articulate, Rey's prowess in all things lacks subtlety, etc. Like I said, there's some parts I like, but that doesn't erase the parts I don't like. I think the movie could have been vastly improved by having better writing and tighter editing.
Well, what couldn't? =) Though I think it's incredibly tight and well-paced for all the masters they're serving and the sheer amount of shit they shove in it, it takes time to have a moment when it needs to but really moves briskly otherwise (Avengers 2 is a good counter-example). The worst parts are indeed Death Star 3 and Snoke (the name alone), and we could cherry pick good or bad parts all day (though I do think the good overwhelmingly outweighs the bad if you want to pro/con the whole movie with me!? =), but I think a lot of the weak points are so because they're Star Wars window dressing and aren't as important as the characters, their arcs, and the groundwork laid while delivering a rousing return to form (YMMV). That's the emotional core of the movie and why it ultimately works, and you don't need a brilliant plot to tell a good story that way, as the original Star Wars films, including Empire's extended chase scene/training montage plot, can attest.
Aazealh said:Sounds to me like you're just saying the bad parts, which are non-trivial, should be dismissed because it's the Star Wars franchise.
That's the heart of the matter to me; how we're putting our finger on the scale one way or another. It's too Star Wars or not enough, lives up to it or doesn't, is somehow disqualified, unworthy or isn't. Honestly, I wouldn't have ever seen this movie or cared about space teens again if it wasn't "Star Wars," but I also wouldn't be over-scrutinizing it either, and I think that's true of many of us. It's almost impossible to separate really, which is why I'm parsing it from multiple angles, from what's purely on screen, to the whole aim of the production.
Aazealh said:I have no shame saying I liked the parts I did. I just don't think they overwhelmingly outweigh the parts I didn't like. To be honest this is the first time I think back on this movie since having watched it, which is in itself revelatory of its (lack of) impact on me.
Well, what movies have such an impact on you these days? Not many for me. It's the same quandary; is it the movie's fault, or us? <-That's us.
Anyway, to put a bow on this, I think it was a good movie on it's own merits, but how it paid tribute to Star Wars (1977) within that framework was in fact great to moi, but I can understand seeing that the opposite way... from a certain point of view.
Sweval said:The first movies I remember watching are the original Star Wars trilogy so the franchise as a whole has a really special place in my heart as it does for others. I have a few problems with the Force Awakens, mainly its lack of actual characters but I did enjoy the movie as a whole. Rogue One kind of gave me hope for how Disney will be handling Star Wars, but the teaser killed most of that. The visual style and content just didn't feel Star Wars to me. There's a certain feeling I've come to expect with Star Wars, it's why anytime I watch A New Hope I get this stupid smile on my face or I'm still mystified by Yoda. This trailer just came across as standard Sci-Fi/Action Blockbuster, I'm very excited for more Luke Skywalker, and who wouldn't be he's one of the most iconic film characters of all time.
This is what I'm talking about. That sounds all over the map to me, like I agree about that "certain feeling," but largely disagree with your positions on what does and doesn't cut it in the new movies. I'm worried about Luke though, seems like they've turned him into an asshole, which explains his sitting everything out, but his unyielding optimism, heroism, and devotion to his friends were pretty defining character traits to say the least. I don't need to see Rey showing him how to get his groove back or something in a rote self-redemptive arc he didn't need just to get back to where he was 30 years before (and then they kill him off =). Oh no, she's already a better Jedi and hero than Luke!
Skeleton said:Going back to the trailer, one potential direction the story could take is that those (I'm assuming Jedi) ancient texts reveal the original Jedi religion/philosophy, showing how corrupt/misguided the Jedi order had become by the time of the prequel trilogy (which was off-handedly/subtly mentioned twice in the PT by Yoda).
It gives them an excuse to correct what I think is Lucas' RotJ big mistake. Lucas wanted Luke to be an old school Jedi just like Obi-Wan and Yoda, but the story laid out by ESB didn't naturally flow there. So he forced the issue with RotJ's Yoda scene, soft retconning ESB's story to allow it.
I fully accept the canon, Luke is a Jedi, but I think a more natural flow would've been to have Luke become a new breed of Force user, one that's close to being like the Jedi (given Luke's incomplete, informal Jedi training) and fights for the same cause but perhaps skirts closer to the dark side than the Jedi would (like Luke did early in RotJ).
The Jedi started out and largely were that way in the OT, with Vader's and Obi-Wan's "religion" being referred to interchangeably. Jedi could have basically just been a synonym for a "force user," with the distinction being between generic light and dark (remember the term Dark Jedi? =). All the super rigid Jedi vs. Sith crap came later, so you're right that it was corrupted, in the script of not in the story. =)
There's a lot of hairsplitting there though, with regards to "retcons" from one sequel to the next. I just don't think it was that complicated until Lucas made it so when he had to depict the Jedi order in the prequels and make up a bunch of specifics that didn't even mesh all that well with what's in the OT (like a lot of the PT). Anyway, it seems that's the direction they're taking Rey, at least I hope so rather than her being the new Chosen One or some shit (BTW, that tome looks like an old Lucas idea...).