The Millennium Harbinger

[fuxberg]

Problem is that we think that not all of the questions will be answered (if any)

 

[Walter]

That's atleast my ramblings of how I understand the nature of the Idea and what happened with wiseman.

I think "understand" here is a pretty big misnomer, since everything you typed above was essentially on the level of fanfiction.

 

[Xem]

Another thing to consider is the 1000 Year Reincarnation Ceremony. Did that actually occur 1,000 years ago? Or was Griffith's reincarnation the first of its kind? I lean towards it being the first.

Yeah I think it was the first as well.

Well, the location of the brand isn't necessarily significant. Since that's a pile of skulls down there, it could have just been the most effective way to visually portray that these people had been branded prior to death. The volume of intact corpses also implies that they weren't eaten or devoured by apostles. Maybe there weren't many (or any?) apostles around back then?

Ah, I meant to mention that they weren't eaten, which as you said, leads me to believe their weren't any apostles around back then.

Shadax's theory is actually close to mine, I didn't post it because as you said Walter, there's not any evidence to support it. And regarding what fuxberg said about a lot if not all of the answers ever being answered, I think it's extremely possible that they won't be, at least not everything. From a story-telling perspective, it might at least be better to keep the human identities of the God Hand a secret, perhaps even Skull Knight as well. It'd take away from the dark and mysterious interest with have of them. Though I do hope at least one day we get an Encyclopedia of sorts to explain everything, perhaps when the whole things over.


edit: for some reason I said "as well" like a hundred times.

 

[Ramen4ever]

I don't think the wiseman was the one to summon the 4 Elemental Kings. It's much more likely that Flora would've done it I think, assuming Emperor Gaiseric is SK (which looks to be pretty clear).

So then it was Flora who ultimately destroyed her close friend, Emperor Gaiseric's empire? Or was there an epic magic user battle?

 

[Shadax]

I think "understand" here is a pretty big misnomer, since everything you typed above was essentially on the level of fanfiction.

There is a difference between fanfiction and making an interpretation of the given facts and information There is not that much supporting my "fiction", nor is there much debunking it. Mine just sounds plausible and in-sync to the whole tone of Berserk for me. If I wanted to fanfiction this it would involve tentacles and naked Casca and .., oh wait, we already had that as part of the official canon. Nvm.

I don't really get the reason for this reply. Is it a flame or how should it be interpreted? If it was just stating fact that I am talking out of my rear end, then that was pretty much a given since I said so myself and it would make the comment superfluous. And this was more of a retorical question since I'm not that bothered either way, I'm just being snarky from the remnants of my new-years hangover.

Anyway. Happy new year everyone. Hoping for lots of cool new Berserk episodes.

 

[Xem]

So then it was Flora who ultimately destroyed her close friend, Emperor Gaiseric's empire? Or was there an epic magic user battle?

I don't know, did Shierke destroy that village and send Casca and Farnese down to get nearly raped and killed by Trolls?

 

[Ramen4ever]

I don't know, did Schierke destroy that village and send Casca and Farnese down to get nearly raped and killed by Trolls?

Well she certainly left behind a lot of broken wet timber. Yeah I could picture Flora being the one to summon the 4 "angels" kings of the world. Though the problem I see with this is that in the story, wasn't the empire destroyed by those four angels? Also for what reason would Flora summon the 4 kings of the world in the first place? To battle the wiseman and his (possibly possessed) followers? An explanation I could think of would be that the people who survived that event and eventually passed it on in rumors and tales, witnessed the power of the "angels" and simply connected their presence with the destruction of the empire. I don't think I'm ready to buy that though.

 

[Xem]

Well she certainly left behind a lot of broken wet timber. Yeah I could picture Flora being the one to summon the 4 "angels" kings of the world. Though the problem I see with this is that in the story, wasn't the empire destroyed by those four angels? Also for what reason would Flora summon the 4 kings of the world in the first place? To battle the wiseman and his (possibly possessed) followers? An explanation I could think of would be that the people who survived that event and eventually passed it on in rumors and tales, witnessed the power of the "angels" and simply connected their presence with the destruction of the empire. I don't think I'm ready to buy that though.

I don't think it's any easier to buy the theory that the wiseman performed a sacrificial ceremony and summoned the Elemental Kings, though. And we do know that SK and Flora (someone definitely capable of the summoning) were close friends. It seems much more plausible to me that she was the one that did it, but it would seem odd for her to do it with the intention of destroying Gaiseric's empire.

From what we know of the Elemental Kings, they are extremely unpredictable, and act on their own. So it would make sense that they would've been summoned for one reason, but acted against the empire as well.

What reason would Flora have for summoning in the first place? Well anyone's guess is as good as mine, but I feel their must be a connection to the sacrificial ceremony. If Gaiseric was to be a sacrifice as well, for example, Flora could've very well done it to stop him from being killed. Or perhaps he wasn't a sacrifice, but Berserker's Armor caused Gaiseric to bleed all his blood out and she needed to do it in order to restore him as Skull Knight. Of course this is all making a lot of assumptions, most of which have at the very most only been hinted toward at best.

 

[Walter]

There is not that much supporting my "fiction", nor is there much debunking it. Mine just sounds plausible and in-sync to the whole tone of Berserk for me.

I don't think it sounds that plausible really. There are some problems with it that I noticed just on a quick glance:

I always thought it as that the whole happening with wiseman etc was like a giant cult thing and their whole worshipping was what gave the idea of evil it's shape and sentient form. Like all the evil was out there in the spiritual world, but that because of the cult that wiseman formed, they shaped the idea into the sentient being that we all know and love. He is a being made up of human emotion/spiritual energy whatever and shaped by human thought and because he/it got willed into existence he does what he was shaped for: being the reason for human suffering. And all the parts of the branding is an adapted recreation of the stuff that went on when and how he/it was "created" All the stuff like the occultation etc is playing out like it is "supposed" to done, how it is imagined it should be by those that gave it it's shape.

I think your theory would benefit from spending some more time fleshing it out and excluding the words "like" and "whatever." First off, emotions don't inhabit the Astral (or as you said, Spiritual) world. I suppose you meant the Ideal world, where large bodies of feelings exist. And by The Idea of Evil's own words, it was born from the dark side of the common consciousness in human hearts -- where all evil thoughts congregate. If that's the setup for the deepest layer of the world, a place in tune with every human heart, would it really need a shove from a cult of interlopers to produce a manipulating entity that obeys the dark desires of the human will?

Some more food for thought: Void, who we presume to be the wiseman, said that fate was a principle beyond human understanding, so it is up to them to transcend fate by embracing evil. Would that be stated by the guy who gave birth to the entity that wrapped its tendrils around the throat of human destiny? Sounds more to me like Void himself was manipulated throughout his life by some larger force -- that he was driven to become what he is because of some dark entity pulling at the strings of his heart.

I don't really get the reason for this reply. Is it a flame or how should it be interpreted? If it was just stating fact that I am talking out of my rear end, then that was pretty much a given since I said so myself and it would make the comment superfluous.

I'd rather people postulate their theories with support. The basis for this entire thread was pretty well elaborated and even explained pictorially, if you'll check page 1. That's kind of what I expect from theories that want to be taken seriously. This section isn't just "post your thoughts." It's "post your ideas with support." So, you just basically took a dump on my thread without cleaning it up with support. Now I have to grab the paper towels.

From what we know of the Elemental Kings, they are extremely unpredictable, and act on their own. So it would make sense that they would've been summoned for one reason, but acted against the empire as well.

Unless I'm missing some line in the manga, the 4 Kings of the World aren't "unpredictable." I think you may be conflating how familiars such as The Lord of Rotting Roots and the Lady of The Depths with the four kings. The Four Kings are used as protection against evil. They don't "do battle" with anything directly.

What reason would Flora have for summoning in the first place? ... I feel their must be a connection to the sacrificial ceremony. If Gaiseric was to be a sacrifice as well, for example, Flora could've very well done it to stop him from being killed. Or perhaps he wasn't a sacrifice, but Berserker's Armor caused Gaiseric to bleed all his blood out and she needed to do it in order to restore him as Skull Knight. Of course this is all making a lot of assumptions, most of which have at the very most only been hinted toward at best.

I like the idea of this, but there are some problems with the last part. How exactly could the Four Kings of the World revive Gaiseric? Fill him up with salamanders? There's no evidence that indicates they act in any other way than a summon by a magic user to provide a barrier against evil.

Also, the four kings weren't visible to bystanders in Enoch, nor for Guts and his band save for Schierke. What would make them visible to the naked eye 1,000 years ago?

 

[Xem]

Unless I'm missing some line in the manga, the 4 Kings of the World aren't "unpredictable." I think you may be conflating how familiars such as The Lord of Rotting Roots and the Lady of The Depths with the four kings. The Four Kings are used as protection against evil. They don't "do battle" with anything directly.

Ah yes, there was a bit of confusion there, I assumed (there's that word again) that the Four Kings act in a similar way to the familiars.

I like the idea of this, but there are some problems with the last part. How exactly could the Four Kings of the World revive Gaiseric? Fill him up with salamanders? There's no evidence that indicates they act in any other way than a summon by a magic user to provide a barrier against evil.

Right, there's no evidence that should really makes me think it's possible for the Four Kings to revive Gaiseric. Possibly they were summoned to protect him while Flora did something to revive him. If Gaiseric is SK, then I imagine Flora must've had a role in his transformation, and whatever happened to "erase his kingdom from the face of the earth" sure seems to be a good enough place for that to happen.

I made a point just now to go back and re-read Charlotte's story. One interesting line I found:

And that city that fell into the ground by natural calamity

... is said to be sleeping still, just as it was then, in a place untouched by either sunlight or wind ... at the bottom of this hole.

Are we to believe that his kingdom wasn't actually destroyed, but was simply removed from the surface? Would that perhaps be something that the Four Kings could do? We don't know yet, but to me it sounds like something that Flora might've tried to do to interrupt the sacrifice and protect Gaiseric.

 

[Bekul]

I made a point just now to go back and re-read Charlotte's story. One interesting line I found:

And that city that fell into the ground by natural calamity

... is said to be sleeping still, just as it was then, in a place untouched by either sunlight or wind ... at the bottom of this hole.

Are we to believe that his kingdom wasn't actually destroyed, but was simply removed from the surface? Would that perhaps be something that the Four Kings could do? We don't know yet, but to me it sounds like something that Flora might've tried to do to interrupt the sacrifice and protect Gaiseric.

Off-topic and idle speculation, but... that /could/ be some interesting foreshadowing as to the form of Griffith's eventual Kingdom...

 

[Shadax]

text

Someone needs a hug I think cause now your just being mean

Anyway, I don't think my thoughts need much backing up, or benefit much from backing up since the things I posted my thoughts about are EXTREMELY vague to begin with. The whole emperor Gaiseric story has been explained countless times here already by other people and we have all seen the one block of artwork with the skulls at the bottom of the hole with a mark that looks the same as The Brand scratched into their skull. So, there is pretty much no hard facts or info whatsoever and every theory that has been posted on it by other people has been pulled out of their rear just as much as my ideas came out of mine. Hence my deliberate use of the words "like" and "such as" and other wording with a big air of uncertainty, since that is just what it is. Speculation, new angles and ideas of how to look at those parts of the story because they might be interesting and at the same time not wanting to force them down people's throat as the absolute truth, because it isn't. I was just sharing my speculations on a very vague subject because I thought they added something new or might be interesting. And no amount of quotations or picture linking would have added much to it, except taking up server space. ( the info is very sparse, has no set facts and is very vague and not giving any real insights about it to begin with)

So, in Short: No reason for backing it up since there is nothing to back it up with that couldn't just as easilly be explained differently, and there was nothing really to back up since I kept it as broad and vague as possible since there is no real way to know the truth anyway and as such no base for fleshing out(that would be about the same as making a theory about God and fleshing that out. Nor would fleshing out be relevant since it wasn't about the details to begin with. It was about an angle: What if this whole situation now didn't even start out supernatural( since that is where everyone is looking at it seems), but had a much more human origin. Maybe you would look different at a whole load of things if you imagine that they aren't really something cooked up by completely alien and malicious demons since that is how demons simply are and has nothing to do with the humans, but stem from normal humans and completely human things that just got twisted over time. That for me brings it a lot closer to reality instead of just the fantasy setting of a manga where demons just do their demony thing because that's what demons do and the demony realm is like that because that is just what a demony realm is supposed to be like. And what supports that also is the fact that Berserk is a very psychological and thoughtfull manga. Things are hardly ever standard fantasy fare or just for the cool factor or sales figures.

 

[Ramen4ever]

text

I've decided to go back to your original post. My problem with your theory is that I'm hard pressed to believe that a cult.. would be able to create the Idea of Evil.

An ocean of feelings all humans have deep in their souls
A common consciousness that transcends individuality
Their collective consciousness
Its dark side is this swelling ocean
I was born from these swells
As the ego of this world
This world itself is I
The darkness that dwells in every human heart
The Idea of Evil
This is God

I put some things in bold. It is a collective thing. A cult is just a group, they don't represent much of humanity as a whole. How would a cult shape and create an entity that was born from the swells of ALL the human dark feelings in the world?

If the whole city was somehow involved in the making of this god with magic.. maybe, I could see something like that or similar happening. It's a large leap though and seriously lacks evidence. How was the city destroyed? why are the people down there branded? How do the 4/5 "angels" play into the equation? Why are they spread out like that at the bottom of the city, most likely all over the place? If it was a major cult why aren't they grouped together drinking their "purple cool aid"? These things would have to be addressed.

 

[Gnihilyn]

What if after emperor Gaiseric died an unrelenting series of wars -like the hundred year war- most likely preceded such a death... that the idea of such an individual who was able to both conquire and rule became so prominent within humanities consciousness for someone like Gaiseric to rise once more... churned and grew huge within the ideal world that eventually Gaiseric was reborn as... Griffith!....and the mighty God Hand realizing Griffith's potential decided to bring this idea to realization by manipulating Griffith's life through him receiving the beherit and through already existing apostles- for example Zodd and Wyald- so that he may be the ruler that humanity has yearned for.- Zodd did say "so it's that kind of ploy" also Ganishka did call Griffith his old enemy... this hints that Griffith had lived a past life... and what if the brand found on the foreheads of
the deceased masses at the bottom of the tower of rebirth was Gaiserics symbol branded on his slaves.

How does the above play into your speculations.

p.s about Gaiserics helmet... on top of it there's some manner of beast that looks like Zodd.. what if zodd is older than his legend and just recently resurfaced 300 years ago.

 

[royoak]

What if after emperor Gaiseric died an unrelenting series of wars -like the hundred year war- most likely preceded such a death... that the idea of such an individual who was able to both conquire and rule became so prominent within humanities consciousness for someone like Gaiseric to rise once more... churned and grew huge within the ideal world that eventually Gaiseric was reborn as... Griffith!....and the mighty God Hand realizing Griffith's potential decided to bring this idea to realization by manipulating Griffith's life through him receiving the beherit and through already existing apostles- for example Zodd and Wyald- so that he may be the ruler that humanity has yearned for.- Zodd did say "so it's that kind of ploy" also Ganishka did call Griffith his old enemy... this hints that Griffith had lived a past life... and what if the brand found on the foreheads of
the deceased masses at the bottom of the tower of rebirth was Gaiserics symbol branded on his slaves.

How does the above play into your speculations.

p.s about Gaiserics helmet... on top of it there's some manner of beast that looks like Zodd.. what if zodd is older than his legend and just recently resurfaced 300 years ago.

Just to clarify something, it's not up to the Godhand to decide who gets a Beherit and who doesn't. The Beherit itself knows its owner and the right time to be with him. So Griffith was already born a Godhand-to-be and not chosen by anybody. And I'm pretty sure that if Gaiseric had the custom of branding his slaves on the forehead, it would have been already mentioned - especially Mozgus should have recognized Casca's brand, and there's nothing else that would in any way support that speculation. As for the 'Zodd-shaped' visor: In the end, it only resembles any beast; it could be a lion, a tiger, a chimera  ... Helmets with animal features seem to be quite common in the Berserk universe, and again there's nothing else that would suggest Zodd is that old, or that the visor's form indeed has some sort of significance.

 

[Walter]

How does the above play into your speculations.

You're reaching sooo far it kind of hurts

 

[Gnihilyn]

OK this is not much fun...what I mean is that everyone on this thread has read the story of berserk, Right!..also every bit of dialogue an imagery within every volume of this series is evidence.... here in speculation nation we then contemplate and take into consideration what we have read in the series thus far-which is evidence-and through a post we state a theory which reflects our opinion and which is based on inconclusive evidence-inconclusive because the story has yet to finish-and so concluding that you can not believe anyones argument just because it does not correlate with your theory which is just as credible as anyone else's, given the source of the evidence...is called personal incredulity which is an argument out of ignorance.

Really Walter..is my theory soooo far stretched....even farther than for example: Ramen4ever stating that void was not only a magic user? but also that he wandered into the Abyss and returned!...c'mon non of this is based on any of the inconclusive evidence that is the berserk story, because void being a magic user was never EEVVVVEEEERRRR stated in the series as a whole....and yet you did credit this bogus opinion...just because you happen to like it.....interesting.


Also since a major theme in this series is Causality... I would like to know how each individual who posts...how do they view causality ...for example ..as a Fatalist or a Determinist- compatibilist or incompatibilist in concerning free will or any other matter or point of view...how do you think Kentarou Miura uses causality in berserk so that I can better understand where your comming from.

 

[Oburi]

p.s about Gaiserics helmet... on top of it there's some manner of beast that looks like Zodd.. what if zodd is older than his legend and just recently resurfaced 300 years ago.

There is a whole thread dedicated to that idea already.

 

[Gnihilyn]

There is a whole thread dedicated to that idea already.

......Is that so... Well I just tried searching "Gaiseric's helmet" and I found....nothing.
Well do you know where said thread is ....although it's really not that important so if you don't recall there is no need to worry about it, Oburi.

 

[Walter]

Well, let's get one thing straight. I agree with the crux of your idea: humanity yearned for a hero and got one, custom-crafted to follow a path that is similar to Gaiseric's (and in fact, in many ways you just restated what I was staying in my original post). I don't think anyone will argue with you on that one. But your details are reeeeallly far-reaching and faulty.

What if after emperor Gaiseric died an unrelenting series of wars -like the hundred year war- most likely preceded such a death...

There wouldn't be any wars. Gaiseric had united the continent under one empire, putting an end to the constant warring. This is noted in volume 10.

that the idea of such an individual who was able to both conquire (conquer?) and rule became so prominent within humanities consciousness for someone like Gaiseric to rise once more... churned and grew huge within the ideal world that eventually Gaiseric was reborn as... Griffith!....and the mighty God Hand realizing Griffith's potential decided to bring this idea to realization by manipulating Griffith's life through him receiving the beherit

I agree that their military histories bear some striking resemblances. The problem I have here is your wording. "Reincarnation" is grasping at straws. There's just nothing that indicates they're related to the extent you can say Griffith is the new reincarnation of Gaiseric. Does he really need to be?

The only indication we have of Griffith's lineage is what the Idea of Evil says in Episode 83: "...And merging blood with blood ... I created the lineage that would give birth to the man you are..." It certainly doesn't say anything about Gaiseric in there. The importance of this line is just that even down to his DNA, Griffith was custom-built to become the hero of the age. At that point, he really doesn't NEED any of the emperor's bloodline to be what he is.

Zodd did say "so it's that kind of ploy" also Ganishka did call Griffith his old enemy... this hints that Griffith had lived a past life.

No, it really doesn't -- and this is why I say you are reaching. These are totally inconspicuous lines from Zodd and Ganishka, and Im not even sure they're accurate translations. I guess you're misquoting the anime's horrid: "I've seen this double edged ploy before." The anime isn't a reliable source for translations.  

Anyway, this line doesn't indicate any massive universal conspiracy. It just indicates Zodd understood what Griffith's role would be in the future.

As for me and Ramen's OUTLANDISH discussion, there actually are connections between Void and magic. For one, the kanji used to describe the occultation ceremonies, and most of the basis for the apostle's power, "ma" (魔) means both "evil" AND "evil magic." Another example, Episode 198 is titled Witch. A portion of the kanji used here (魔) is the same as when Griffith says: "Unleash Evil." There are parallels between the types of magic used and the evil magic we see in the occultation ceremonies.

On top of that, it is postulated that the wiseman imprisoned in the Tower of Retribution was once Void. The kanji used for wiseman here could also be read as sage. Another, Schierke's out of body experiences as she travels through the astral world seem visually similar to Griffith's descent to the Abyss in vol 13. It's also not a completely insane theory that the process by which this occurs is drastically different, based on what we know of the dangers of going "too deep" in the astral world.

So, sure, most of these ideas are inconclusive, but mine are at least somewhat grounded based on these above instances. And that's all I really ask.

 

[Th3Branded0ne]

I think Oburi was referring about zodd's age. I think the thread is steering in another direction.

 

[Ramen4ever]

Ramen4ever stating that void was not only a magic user? but also that he wandered into the Abyss and returned!

Truly, it's almost as far fetched as thinking that Ganishka could use the Daka Factory to "wander into the Abyss and return!"

 

[Gnihilyn]

good.. Good...GOOD!..

....Gnihilyn: "p.s about Gaiseric's helmet...blah Blah BLAH-BLAH blah...I stated that so that someone...Anyone! could explain how such conclusions about the whole "magic user" thing and uh...to acquire better knowledge...since the Dark Horse translations do seem to end up being inadequate in being exactly accurate...I felt that if I asked I'd get a response like..."you should read all the threads'...all of them...Ouch!, that's a whole lot to read through.

... Why do that when I can just apply a lil'bit of Order to it all through Anarchy- absurd idea of Zodd's age-(smileling)...and BOOM! Walter replies.

p.s In my Dark Horse volume 5,Nosferatu Zodd, chapter 2 p.200... Zodd does indeed say "so...it's that kind of ploy."

 

[Th3Branded0ne]

Anyone! could explain how such conclusions about the whole "magic user" thing and uh...

This looks magical to me. It may not be Schierke's magic

 

[Walter]

Uh huh. So you claim to have just goaded me to reply? I see. Hm, I'll keep that in mind for the files. 

And the DH translation still doesn't change the meaning of the line. I really don't think it's implying anything like what you were saying.