TV Series: Lost

[Griffith]

Re: Lost Season 4

I didn't even read that, and I didn't just watch that scene, but I still remember he was being a sinister son of a bitch during the whole thing, with a smarmy knowing smile and everything, and he didn't feel too bad about murdering Nathan either, or I should say not at all.

What is this newfound hardon for Goodwin anyway?

 

[Aazealh]

Re: Lost Season 4

I still remember he was being a sinister son of a bitch during the whole thing, with a smarmy knowing smile and everything, and he didn't feel too bad about murdering Nathan either, or I should say not at all.

Exactly. I myself did rewatch it yesterday, and it's still the same thing it was. He's cold and menacing in his words (and the music itself is tense), and really, had Ana-Lucia not attacked first, would he have let her go? She wasn't on the list. Not a good person, eh? Talk about bullshit. Yeah I bet Goodwin had read Nathan's file while in the jungle with the group, very plausible. I bet he didn't just say so as a pathetic justification for his cold-blooded murder. He could have escaped if he was afraid Nathan's innocence would give him away, and if he wanted to go back to Juliet. But no, murder was the better option to him, even though following the same reasoning he had, that was likely to give him away (and it did).

 

[Walter]

Re: Lost Season 4

He could have escaped if he was afraid Nathan's innocence would give him away, and if he wanted to go back to Juliet. But no, murder was the better option to him, even though following the same reasoning he had, that was likely to give him away (and it did).

Well why do you think Ben made the guy that watches chemical levels all day suddenly become a spy? He knew he was a halfwit and would fail

Anyway, this kind of reversal of expectation isn't out of the norm for LOST. It's just one of the more blatant varieties. There was an abundant amount of this in Season 1. The music, mood and tone of line deliveries is apparently subjective given the amount of knowledge we have of the characters.

A good example is when Locke first meets Walt. After the scene where he invites him to play Backgammon, he tells Walt of the pieces, "One is light ... one is dark... (LIKE YOU AND ME, YOU DEGENERATE)." The suspense in this scene would make us believe Locke was a homicidal maniac skinhead. Come to think of it, that's how Locke's portrayed throughout Season 1. (As if the writer's hadn't yet decided who he would be ) I can see it now, the writers are saying GOTCHA!!!

But all that kind of writing does is make the viewer more cynical and question everything that is presented to them. That's why 24 is a more entertaining show. It DELIVERS

 

[A.C]

Re: Lost Season 4

[quote author=Walter]
Got a request for ya. Could you transcribe the part where our knight in shining armor here grabs the guy's neck by surprise and breaks it?
[/quote]

NATHAN: Which way's the beach?

GOODWIN: That way, maybe five miles.

[When Nathan starts walking Goodwin grabs him by the neck and breaks it. Because of the grittyness and the way Goodwin doesn't look entirely comfortable it appears Goodwin doesn't do this sort of thing everyday.]

[quote author=Griffith No More!]
I still remember he was being a sinister son of a bitch during the whole thing, with a smarmy knowing smile and everything[/quote]

It's the same smile he gives Juliet. It's the smile he puts on for the ladies. I don't find him sinister anymore watching that episode. Not sure I ever did.

[quote author=Griffith No More!]
and he didn't feel too bad about murdering Nathan either, or I should say not at all.
[/quote]

Why, should he be?
Is Locke sinister because he doesn't feel too bad about murdering Naomi?
To me John Locke is actually the more disturbing one at the moment.

[quote author=Aazealh]
He's cold and menacing in his words (and the music itself is tense), and really, had Ana-Lucia not attacked first, would he have let her go?
[/quote]

Who gives a shit about the music? I agree he doesn't sound entirely natural, but I think he wanted to be a little "intriguing" to Ana. He underestimated her because she was a woman. Had Ana not attacked we might have learned something more, which is why her attack annoyed me even the first time I watched it. A person who is that quick to resort to violence doesn't belong with the Others. I think Goodwin would have left her and gone home had she not attacked, but we all know there's no way she would have let him walk away.

[quote author=Aazealh]
Yeah I bet Goodwin had read Nathan's file while in the jungle with the group, very plausible. I bet he didn't just say so as a pathetic justification for his cold-blooded murder. He could have escaped if he was afraid Nathan's innocence would give him away, and if he wanted to go back to Juliet. But no, murder was the better option to him, even though following the same reasoning he had, that was likely to give him away (and it did).
[/quote]

He wasn't very smart, okay, and he was interested in Ana. That, I think, is why. Also, Ben wouldn't let him go home. He knew Nathan was not on Jacob's list and that was enough. He didn't have to read his file (though I think he was in contact with them from time to time since Ben knew exactly where to find his corpse.)

 

[Aazealh]

Re: Lost Season 4

[When Nathan starts walking Goodwin grabs him by the neck and breaks it. Because of the grittyness and the way Goodwin doesn't look entirely comfortable it appears Goodwin doesn't do this sort of thing everyday.]

You know you're hilarious when you write that sort of bullshit? "Not comfortable?" He looks like a serial killer, licking his lips and all. Not a second of hesitation to break Nathan's neck, no nervousness, just calmy looking around afterwards to make sure there were no witnesses. And I hope you realize that letting Nathan go while telling him to avoid Ana-Lucia could have probably been as effective as killing him. Perhaps even more. Choosing murder denotes a certain mentality. A rather unhealthy one.

I don't find him sinister anymore watching that episode. Not sure I ever did.

Then again, no offense but you're not exactly known for your good judgment around here.

Who gives a shit about the music?

People who pretend to care about what the writers intended when filming a scene? You've been giving us strange descriptions that appear to be largely construed from whatever goes through your brain at the time, yet the intent of the authors of the show isn't valuable? Music makes a scene go from happy to sinister in seconds. It's a really powerful tool in that medium.

I agree he doesn't sound entirely natural, but I think he wanted to be a little "intriguing" to Ana.

Yeah, you "think". After all, why wouldn't he want to sound "intriguing" (i.e. suspicious) when she's suspecting him of being a traitor? Makes perfect sense!

A person who is that quick to resort to violence doesn't belong with the Others.

Now this is ridiculous. You're basically trolling here.

I think Goodwin would have left her and gone home had she not attacked

Doesn't make any sense. He killed Nathan without hesitating a second to protect his cover. Yet he would have walked away just like that? Plus he teases Ana-Lucia about the kids, but sure he totally expected her to stay calm and let him go, no problem.

He wasn't very smart, okay, and he was interested in Ana. That, I think, is why. Also, Ben wouldn't let him go home.

Ah yeah, so basically he didn't care to go back anymore since he wanted to nail Ana-Lucia and had forgotten about Juliet already, plus he couldn't possibly go back to save his life because Ben wouldn't like it? Nice (especially considering how he laughed at Juliet's concern about Ben in the latest episode).

He knew Nathan was not on Jacob's list and that was enough.

Enough to kill Nathan, but not to kill Ana-Lucia (he sure tried when they fought, though). Because of some arbitrary list he may or may not have cared about. And it's alright to kill people that aren't on the list without showing any remorse/emotion, is this what you're saying? That's the logic of a psychopath.

 

[Griffith]

Re: Lost Season 4

When Nathan starts walking Goodwin grabs him by the neck and breaks it. Because of the grittyness and the way Goodwin doesn't look entirely comfortable it appears Goodwin doesn't do this sort of thing everyday.]

I don't think that really matters, I might as well say that he sure seemed good at it for someone that had never done it before. Anyway, is your argument for the virtue of Goodwin that he likely didn't murder someone in cold blood every day? =)

Maybe we'll find out that Nathan was really a serial killer and that there's something to the whole good/bad thing, but so far it's just arbitrary and baseless, and as far as we know, Nathan was just some innocent man who got in Goodwin's way.

It's the same smile he gives Juliet. It's the smile he puts on for the ladies. I don't find him sinister anymore watching that episode. Not sure I ever did.

This is not a good indicator that your perception is especially reliable.

Why, should he be?
Is Locke sinister because he doesn't feel too bad about murdering Naomi?
To me John Locke is actually the more disturbing one at the moment.

Yes, Locke is sinister and dangerous for it, possibly crazy, and nobody is saying he isn't (a point of view expressed explicitly on the show). You could also bring up Sawyer shooting Tom. Even still, these three situations were each portrayed differently, as is Locke and Sawyer's character and motivation obviously. I also think your defenses of Goodwin would work as well, if not better, for Locke, so using him as an example is disingenuous. Though, I agree Locke is certainly the one to worry about at the moment since he's a alive and Goodwin is dead, so that's a good assessment. =)

Which highlights something else, the fact that these Goodwin fanfics are based on prominent appearances in only two episodes. Locke's a main character, we've seen his transformation and transgressions over years of programming, and just a lot more of him in general, good and bad. So, not exactly an equal sample size for adequate comparison. Of our very small sample size of Goodwin, which is what the creators wanted to show of him, and therefore that which defines his character to this point, wasn't exactly a glowing review in his favor. Again, I'm sure Goodwin could have lead a perfectly boring life, but from what little we saw of him, liar, adulterer, murderer (just tell him they're not on the list), someone who intimated he wouldn't be messed with because he was capable of killing everyone on the island with chemicals, he wasn't exactly a shining example.

Who gives a shit about the music? I agree he doesn't sound entirely natural, but I think he wanted to be a little "intriguing" to Ana. He underestimated her because she was a woman. Had Ana not attacked we might have learned something more, which is why her attack annoyed me even the first time I watched it. A person who is that quick to resort to violence doesn't belong with the Others. I think Goodwin would have left her and gone home had she not attacked, but we all know there's no way she would have let him walk away.

I think the producers of the show care about the music. You know, to convey the tone and emotion of a scene. Hell, they often let music carry entire scenes and montages. It's certainly a lot more important than what you think. Especially what you think could of happened versus what did happen. Also, I'm not sure where you get all your standards for the others since the information we have on them is contradictory at best. They're certainly capable of vicious and seemingly random cold blooded acts of violence, and it hasn't just been a last resort either. It's obviously more complicated then "good guys" or "bad guys", but your perception seems to be biased to some theory of the ultimate goodness of the others, which is based on a few lines about lists and "good/bad people" that could very well just be a generic hustle. Everyone is the "good guys" from their point of view. Anyway, I don't think anyone is insisting that Goodwin is so especially evil as you're insisting his goodness or trying to justify his actions through some sort of mysterious piety. I don't see what makes Goodwin so justified in murder because Ben tells him that a ghost said they're not on a list, "Ok."

This fascination with the others is like some sort of Stockholm syndrome. =)

He wasn't very smart, okay, and he was interested in Ana. That, I think, is why. Also, Ben wouldn't let him go home. He knew Nathan was not on Jacob's list and that was enough. He didn't have to read his file (though I think he was in contact with them from time to time since Ben knew exactly where to find his corpse.)

Again, such assumptions don't trump what we've explicitly seen. If he's indeed justified, we'll find out.

People who pretend to care about what the writers intended when filming a scene? You've been giving us strange descriptions that appear to be largely construed from whatever goes through your brain at the time, yet the intent of the authors of the show isn't valuable? Music makes a scene go from happy to sinister in seconds. It's a really powerful tool in that medium.

Sorry Aaz, here's a list of some important things that go into a good scene on LOST, in order:

1. Writing
2. Acting
3. Direction
4. What A.C thinks
5. Music

Actually, we might just have to bump #4 to the top of the list.

 

[A.C]

Re: Lost Season 4

I don't think that really matters, I might as well say that he sure seemed good at it for someone that had never done it before. Anyway, is your argument for the virtue of Goodwin that he likely didn't murder someone in cold blood every day? =)

Maybe we'll find out that Nathan was really a serial killer and that there's something to the whole good/bad thing, but so far it's just arbitrary and baseless, and as far as we know, Nathan was just some innocent man who got in Goodwin's way.

« Post author A.C does not rebut argument, point stands unchallenged »

This is not a good indicator that your perception is especially reliable.

« Post author A.C does not rebut argument, point stands unchallenged »

Yes, Locke is sinister and dangerous for it, possibly crazy, and nobody is saying he isn't (a point of view expressed explicitly on the show). You could also bring up Sawyer shooting Tom. Even still, these three situations were each portrayed differently, as is Locke and Sawyer's character and motivation obviously. I also think your defenses of Goodwin would work as well, if not better, for Locke, so using him as an example is disingenuous. Though, I agree Locke is certainly the one to worry about at the moment since he's a alive and Goodwin is dead, so that's a good assessment. =)

Which highlights something else, the fact that these Goodwin fanfics are based on prominent appearances in only two episodes. Locke's a main character, we've seen his transformation and transgressions over years of programming, and just a lot more of him in general, good and bad. So, not exactly an equal sample size for adequate comparison. Of our very small sample size of Goodwin, which is what the creators wanted to show of him, and therefore that which defines his character to this point, wasn't exactly a glowing review in his favor. Again, I'm sure Goodwin could have lead a perfectly boring life, but from what little we saw of him, liar, adulterer, murderer (just tell him they're not on the list), someone who intimated he wouldn't be messed with because he was capable of killing everyone on the island with chemicals, he wasn't exactly a shining example.

« Post author A.C does not rebut argument, point stands unchallenged »

Especially what you think could of happened versus what did happen. Also, I'm not sure where you get all your standards for the others since the information we have on them is contradictory at best. They're certainly capable of vicious and seemingly random cold blooded acts of violence, and it hasn't just been a last resort either. It's obviously more complicated then "good guys" or "bad guys", but your perception seems to be biased to some theory of the ultimate goodness of the others, which is based on a few lines about lists and "good/bad people" that could very well just be a generic hustle. Everyone is the "good guys" from their point of view. Anyway, I don't think anyone is insisting that Goodwin is so especially evil as you're insisting his goodness or trying to justify his actions through some sort of mysterious piety. I don't see what makes Goodwin so justified in murder because Ben tells him that a ghost said they're not on a list, "Ok."

This fascination with the others is like some sort of Stockholm syndrome. =)

« Post author A.C does not rebut argument, point stands unchallenged »

Again, such assumptions don't trump what we've explicitly seen. If he's indeed justified, we'll find out.

« Post author A.C does not rebut argument, point stands unchallenged »

 

[Griffith]

Re: Lost Season 4

Music is an important part of the experience, but I don't think music should be used to prove a person is sinister.

This isn't a person, it's a character, and characters in movies, television, and video games live in a world of music, which accompanies and portrays their character just like action, dialogue, acting, lighting, etc (which you also seem to be arguing shouldn't be used to judge a character either in some cases). Ignoring it doesn't make you more objective, quite the contrary, though you can still empathize and understand the reasoning of a "sinister" character.

Especially since we're supposed to get the feeling that Goodwin is not sinister in Juliet's flashback. Alot of times a movie or series will show the same scene or character twice, but with different uses of music in the scenes.

They didn't show the same scenes again, they showed a different side of Goodwin's life, which doesn't negate what we saw of him before. It certainly humanizes him more, but that doesn't mean he was a better person for it. Again, as I've pointed out already and you haven't challenged, I don't think anyone is saying Goodwin is especially bad so much as you're making a contrived argument that he wasn't when there are clear examples of him doing bad things, with justification still forthcoming. I don't disagree with your idea, it's great to examine a story from different points of view, so much as the degree to which you apply and adhere to it, which could go to the point of misinterpretation in the case of some scenes.

 

[A.C]

Re: Lost Season 4

Again, as I've pointed out already and you haven't challenged, I don't think anyone is saying Goodwin is especially bad so much as you're making a contrived argument that he wasn't when there are clear examples of him doing bad things, with justification still forthcoming. I don't disagree with your idea, it's great to examine a story from different points of view, so much as the degree to which you apply and adhere to it, which could go to the point of misinterpretation in the case of some scenes.

Well, you are right. I didn't challenge your post because I can't.

I'm not gonna try to justify Goodwin's murder of Nathan. I'm still waiting for more info regarding those lists. I do know that Nathan was an asshole though. Apart from that I simply disagree that Goodwin came off as being especially sinister in any other scene. Based on what we've learned after that episode (that Goodwin felt very passionately about Ana and made a case for her) it's hard to believe he actually meant to harm Ana in his last scene. As for the music, I felt it was used to express what Ana was feeling (fear) rather than to make the point that Goodwin was sinister, but that's just me.

 

[Aazealh]

Re: Lost Season 4

How he looked isn't what's relevant

Then don't bring it up. Besides, the way he's portrayed is quite relevant. According to you, it seems that nothing's important but what you imagine is the character's motivation.

what's relevant is what reason he had

Protecting his cover as a spy, for all we know. And murder wasn't the only choice. All this speculation about lists is fruitless for now (forever?).

Sure we don't know if he had a proper reason to sympathize with, but Nathan was an asshole.

That doesn't justify murder. Lots of people are assholes or have acted like ones at some point. And Nathan wasn't even that bad.

Not only did no-one in the group like him at all, Libby - a therapist, was creeped out by him.

Ah yeah, remember that shot of her in Hugo's mental institution? Quite a reliable therapist. Plus I wouldn't say that they all hated him, at that point these guys didn't even know each other very well. Many of them acted like "assholes" at some point. Still doesn't justify murder though. Your reasoning is what's creeping me out here.

That's probably why everyone was biased towards Goodwin being evil the first time they saw that episode, because they knew that Goodwin was on the same "team" as evil Ethan.

Actually, I found him nice even though I knew who he was, but the neck breaking and general threatening about him when his cover was blown clearly didn't make him look like a good person. I'm not sure why we're even arguing about this.

Yeah it wasn't a smart move. I never argued it was. I'm just thinking Goodwin might have been stressed about the situation and wasn't thinking straight.

He seemed extremely calm about it all, and had planned it perfectly. Even when he was confronted about it, he had no reaction. That's kind of psychopathic.

The Others are still pretty wierd, why do they want Locke to kill his father?

Well, that was Ben more than the Others. Richard sure did seem to think so at least.

I see no contradictions or inconsistencies so far.

That only means you're not looking hard enough, because they're not too difficult to spot.

Yeah, but at that point we were supposed to think Goodwin was evil.

It's not just that we were supposed to think so, he simply was. Nothing will change that. It's not like he faked Nathan's murder.

Come on now, think about it. You live on an island in a secret society. If you start inviting a bunch of strangers like Ana and the Tailies they might want to get home. But you know you can't let them (since they could spill the beans about the Island) so you have to be careful. Ana could have killed them all and stolen the sub.

Are you joking? These people are the ultimate example of violent maniacs. They kidnap people and kids at night, terrorize clueless and mostly innocent people, murder some of them and really anyone they don't like or perceive as a threat, have no regard for human life in general, push their own agenda at any occasion, act like an authority when they aren't. Ah and they also keep people working for them on an island by force, people they had come there through lies. There's also various cases of psychological torture when it's not plain torture. They kill their own people arbitrarily too. They live in the houses of folks they've mass slaughtered. And the list goes on, there are countless examples. Ana-Lucia didn't ask anything to anyone, she was just concerned about the kids. And she had all the reasons in the world to be. You're on to some serious bullshit here.

Did he? It's entirely possible he was simply trying to defend himself with the stick and then trying to imobilize her

Yes he did. He made a stabbing motion that was clearly intended to kill.

I'm not gonna try to justify Goodwin's murder of Nathan. I'm still waiting for more info regarding those lists.

I have the feeling that you're setting yourself up for the biggest disappointment of your life.

 

[A.C]

Re: Lost Season 4

Then don't bring it up. Besides, the way he's portrayed is quite relevant. According to you, it seems that nothing's important but what you imagine is the character's motivation.

I will not bring it up again.

That doesn't justify murder. Lots of people are assholes or have acted like ones at some point. And Nathan wasn't even that bad.

I never said it justify murder. But I also didn't care that Nathan died. If they really wanted us to hate Goodwin they should have had him kill someone like Cindy. I'm not saying this to argue my point, I just feel like saying it. =P

He seemed extremely calm about it all, and had planned it perfectly. Even when he was confronted about it, he had no reaction. That's kind of psychopathic.

I disagree, he didn't come off as a psychopath. He did have a reaction when not looking Ana in the eyes at first. Very human reaction. The last line he has "They are better off now" is stupid because he delivers it with a chilling smile. I don't know what the director was thinking, but maybe the writers had a different idea how that was supposed to be delivered. The words themselves make sense.

They kidnap people and kids at night,

Saving them from the dangerious wildlife of the island? It's not like a boat is going to come by and rescue the children anyway. You'll at least agree that the children are safer at the Barracks rather than on the beach/jungle. Besides, Cindy seemed to be grateful to the Others. The 815'ers think that they can go home. The Others know they can't, or at least that they shouldn't.

terrorize clueless and mostly innocent people, murder some of them and really anyone they don't like or perceive as a threat, have no regard for human life in general, push their own agenda at any occasion, act like an authority when they aren't. Ah and they also keep people working for them on an island by force, people they had come there through lies. There's also various cases of psychological torture when it's not plain torture. They kill their own people arbitrarily too. They live in the houses of folks they've mass slaughtered. And the list goes on, there are countless examples.

Yeah, I can't justify all of that.

Yes he did. He made a stabbing motion that was clearly intended to kill.

Where? With the stick? You realize he has to defend himself right?

I have the feeling that you're setting yourself up for the biggest disappointment of your life.

Possibly, we'll see. If the Others are evil they're evil and I'll accept that. But I'm hoping the shows writers have some interesting revelations up their sleaves.

Anyway, I found an interview with the writers where the issue of Damon's comment about there being no time-travel back in season one was adressed. Since we were talking about that at the beginning of this thread I thought you'd find it interesting.

UGO: When was the decision to use time travel in the story made?

DAMON: It's been in the DNA of the show since the very beginning. Obviously, one thing the flash backs and the flash forwards provide you with is the idea of time travel. You're bouncing around in time and events from the past are seemingly influencing the present, but it's not a traditional time travel story until we started talking about what the hatch was there for, and what this electromagnetic energy that the hatch is trying to contain is and what would be the effect of that hatch going away, otherwise known as the purple sky event. And it was sort of those conversations which obviously happened way back in season one when Locke and Boone found the hatch that were the early precursors of time travel. I will say, though, that the first significant event in the show where we were thinking in the back of our minds that this is going to require a story telling element that isn't traditional narrative, is the discovery of Adam and Eve in the caves.

UGO: Here's an issue that arises with regards to that. Fans will speculate about different aspects of the show and will often reference statements that we're made, like "Oh it can't be about time travel because Damon and JJ said on the non-linear board at The Fuselage that there is no time travel in the show." How do you deal with it when, I don't want to say out and out lie, but if a fan or an interviewer asks a question that is going to really blow the story open; you obviously can't say "yeah, that's right."

CARLTON: Obviously, we're very careful about what we say. But, honestly, the assumption that you can figure it all out pre-supposes that you know enough about the world of the show to figure it all out. If I were to ask you towards the end of season one what your theory on what all the revelations of Lost are, you're going to give a wildly different answer then you would now part way through season 4. What we would say is there are still twists and turns and unexpected surprises to come, so its really hard to figure out where we're going because the audience doesn't possess enough information yet. Occasionally people do stumble upon bits and pieces of things that are true and I think that is great, but it has to remain that viewers individual satisfaction because we're not going to ruin it for everybody else by saying "Yes! That's exactly what is going to happen."

DAMON: The reality is, anything that Carlton and I say, or anyone involved with the show says, that is all part of the politicking that sort of surrounds the show. We like the idea of being answerable to the show, that is to say if we do something the fans don't like we can come forward and apologize for it and explain what the thought process was for executing that story line. Or, vice versa, if we do something people really like we get to sort of pull that forward and explain, for instance, that we weren't able to do the flash forward part of the story until they promised us an end to the show, and this is how we were able to end the show, and this is why we are doing three more seasons, and so on. The fans are owed those explanations. But, in a lot of ways it is like J.K. Rowling revealing that Dumbledore was gay. She's saying this, and it is part of her talking about the books, but all that matters at the end of the day is the books. So, watching the show Lost, you watch it and the data is there for you to form whatever theories you have, and you can't factor in anything that even the creators or actors are saying about the show outside of the show, because at the end of the day the show will be processed in six DVD box sets. It will be completely irrelevant as to whether we confirmed or denied or speculated. The one thing that Carlton and I are steadfast on saying over and over again, and that we're not lying about is that the show is not all a dream. It's happening in the real world, there are real stakes, you're not going to get to the end and cut to black and suddenly realize that this was all sort of a fantasy. That's the only thing that we sort of need to get out there in the world, because it does diffuse a lot of wacky theories.

 

[Aazealh]

Re: Lost Season 4

I never said it justify murder. But I also didn't care that Nathan died. If they really wanted us to hate Goodwin they should have had him kill someone like Cindy. I'm not saying this to argue my point, I just feel like saying it. =P

The thing is, I doubt you'd have cared about Cindy if she had been killed. I know I don't care about her.

I disagree, he didn't come off as a psychopath. He did have a reaction when not looking Ana in the eyes at first.

It's not like he was blushing and nervous or anything. You're talking as if he were a shy teenager that just got asked out on a date. It's not the case here. And you know, even if there was enough doubt to warrant several interpretations of his reaction, the music (yeah, that again) tells us more than we need about the mood and tension of the scene. Anyway, I didn't say he was a psychopath, I said his attitude when murdering Nathan wasn't much different from what you'd expect of one. You're talking about a difference scene now and distorting what I said.

The last line he has "They are better off now" is stupid because he delivers it with a chilling smile. I don't know what the director was thinking, but maybe the writers had a different idea how that was supposed to be delivered. The words themselves make sense.

Seems to me that you're just not getting the scene or are refusing to acknowledge some things because they go against your beliefs. He said it in a chilling tone and with a chilling smile because the mood was then chilling, and that's why there was a chilling music going on in the background. He wasn't embarrassed like a kid that gets caught doing mischief, he was putting an end to his boyscout act. The words make sense, but you have to realize that was matters here is the delivery. And really, we don't know if they're actually fine or not. Walt sure didn't seem to think so. I don't know how you can still argue about all this. Anyway, as things stand now, we're just saying that the new episode was clumsy in some regards concerning Goodwin's retconned self, and you're saying the old episode wasn't well directed/acted out/etc. I guess we agree that there are discrepancies.

Saving them from the dangerious wildlife of the island? It's not like a boat is going to come by and rescue the children anyway. You'll at least agree that the children are safer at the Barracks rather than on the beach/jungle.

Are they? What are they doing and what's their living conditions? Aaron never had any problem so far. Walt was desperate to escape. Is it so good? If the Others were so nice, why didn't they send the kids back home in their submarine? It's obviously it's not a selfless act of goodness. And Cindy, really, I wouldn't trust her good judgment. She probably knows nothing.

The 815'ers think that they can go home. The Others know they can't, or at least that they shouldn't.

They shouldn't because Ben doesn't like it? Great reason.

Where? With the stick? You realize he has to defend himself right?

Yeah, with the pointy stick. He tries to STAB her in the gut, but clumsily, and she catches the stick and throws it away. Then they fall.

Possibly, we'll see. If the Others are evil they're evil and I'll accept that. But I'm hoping the shows writers have some interesting revelations up their sleaves.

I think that it'll turn out they're less evil than the evilest evil of them all, but it'd take some ridiculous shit in order to make them truly good people. It's not even a matter of them as a group, but with Ben at their head, how could it be different? He's an archetypical mastermind villain, a murdered and a fucking creep. Great example of a sociopath. Any group led by this man is tainted.

Anyway, I found an interview with the writers where the issue of Damon's comment about there being no time-travel back in season one was adressed. Since we were talking about that at the beginning of this thread I thought you'd find it interesting.

Thanks, that's interesting. Basically the guys are admitting that their declarations can't be taken as an absolute word of law, that there's still stuff they don't know themselves or that will change between an interview and another, and so on. It's honest of them. Frankly, I can understand their desire to limit time travel as to avoid alternature futures/pasts and such things. I like the way they're going about it, and Desmond's adventures are one of my favorite subplot of the show. But yeah, at the end of the day, it's time travel. Only the mind travels, it doesn't result in MAJOR and DRASTIC changes, whatever. I'm fine with that. But it's still time travel. More power to them since they know how to do it well.

 

[A.C]

Re: Lost Season 4

They shouldn't because Ben doesn't like it? Great reason.

Well, it does seem like the island had a reason for bringing them there. I trust Locke on that one. None of the Oceanic 6 has had bright futures off the island.

 

[Walter]

Re: Lost Season 4

Let's not forget the philanthropic Others also locked up and mentally tortured Walt* and Karl in ROOM 101 23.

*Watch ROOM 23:
http://abc.go.com/primetime/lost/missingpieces/index?pn=index

 

[A.C]

Re: Lost Season 4

Ah yes, but was Walt actually on the list?

Btw, what did you guys think of the mobisodes? I enjoyed them all, but "SO IT BEGINS" (the last one) was by far the best one. I hope they will be on the DVD for Season 4.

 

[Aazealh]

Re: Lost Season 4

Well, it does seem like the island had a reason for bringing them there. I trust Locke on that one. None of the Oceanic 6 has had bright futures off the island.

For some of them, definitely. For others, I'm not so sure. Not to mention those that ended up dying.

Btw, what did you guys think of the mobisodes? I enjoyed them all, but "SO IT BEGINS" (the last one) was by far the best one. I hope they will be on the DVD for Season 4.

Didn't see them. Did I miss anything?

 

[Griffith]

Re: Lost Season 4

Spoiler

Nice move by Juliet, she was actually doing Sun a favor there, well, two. Also, man is Jin whipped, he could have stayed mad for at least a day, or better yet, "Here, I made you some special... Adulterer's Stew." I was hoping that during his karma/fish conversation with Bernard, another painfully obvious turn to get Jin back on board with his marriage, that he'd ask afterward, "So... I murder... pregnant wife-whore... I no catch fish anymore?" I like how his English is as good as it needs to be for any given scene, how long has she been teaching him supposedly, a few weeks? Also, the Panda flashback was another obvious trick from the start, but even still, they kinda cheated by directly inter-cutting it with the flashforward. So, they do transitions between the flashbacks/forwards and present Island stuff, dramatic sounds and music and everything, but it's okay to go from a flashback to a forward and vice versa in single regular cut? Why am I complaining about something so tepid that was an obvious trick anyway? Because it's still fucking bullshit and they cheated Goddamnit, that's why! =)

Also, I guess Aaron is now 99.9% confirmed as one of Six since we were supposed to know them all by the end of this one (A.C?), but of course, the retarded debate could linger on the web forever, with more retarded theories and arguments such as, "theres no way he is cuz a baby cant count." Also, because you never know with these producers and their BS, though I find some people stubborn to admit even the possibility that Aaron is one of them, even comparing his status to Ben's (which makes no sense), though it should arguably be the default, or even the obvious, assumption until told otherwise (I mean, he was the only island character revealed in that "Oceanic 6 revealing" episode since we already knew Kate and Jack). I wish they'd actually do something useful on their website and either just confirm or deny this crap, or if not, stop teasing with worthless details in the promos and let us discover it for ourselves and actually enjoy the show. Why do it by half-measures and alienate your fans? Another great example of this was after this episode, *DOUBLE SPOILER ALERT concerning next week's episode, copy/paste the small text if you dare*"NEXT WEEK ON LOST... SOMEONE DIES!!!" Thanks ABC, I'm glad I won't have to worry about any suspense now, which also signals that it's probably meaningless anyway like in this episode, though the way this season has been going it'll be Michael!

[quote author=http://www.tv.com/story/9944.html]"We can confirm [Michael] isn't coming back just for a quick pop, he will be coming back as a series regular," said Lindelof. "We can't tell you when, but the way he does comes back is awesome."[/quote]

Spoiler

OMG, MICHAEL IS BEN'S SECRET... JANITOR ON THE BOAT!

Yes, boat janitor = awesome. And if it was supposed to be a surprise, they probably shouldn't have telegraphed it during the season. I'm not even sure it was supposed to be, because it was sure wasn't an "awesome" scene, more subdued and surprisingly restrained for their standards (not a bad thing, it's just that usually there are horns blaring and shit like the end of episode 3). BTW, how can the crew not figure out that the useless janitor is the guy sabotaging the operation? "Hmmm, it can't be the guy in a totally unskilled and superfluous position on the ship, I mean, we don't even know anything about him, so it'd be unfair to suspect him, and we could get busted for racial profiling." This is like the unnecessary character rule turned on it's head just because you could argue Michael is more important than any of these freighter bozos (though I like the hardass Captain and the creepy doctor, and too bad Zoe Bell already did her one stunt for the show). Anyway, welcome back Kevin Johnson, which brings me to this episodes special rating: 1 KJ

BTW, if you think my reviews are tough, here's a second opinion from a qualified Internet person, a featured review!:

I'll tell you what the afterthoughts are. THIS SHOW IS TERRIBLE NOW! Thank you writers of lost for ruining a perfectly good show. It just keeps going on and on and never gets anywhere and ends up giving FAR more questions than it answers. Every week I've sat and watched hoping for something to happen, every week I'm disappointed. No wonder the ratings are plummetting, the show SUCKS now!

 

[A.C]

Re: Lost Season 4

Didn't see them. Did I miss anything?

There are at least three that are worth watching "King of the Castle", "Room 23" and "So it begins". Look them up on YouTube if you have trouble watching them on ABC's site Walter linked to.

Basically, if you watch them all you'll learn:
*Background story on Jack's watch (which might come into play in the story)
*Who Frogurt is (an 815'er mentioned in "S.O.S.")
*Scene with Jack and Ben when Jack was living with the Others.
*Michael met Juliet
*How Juliet told Jack she was Ben's spy between episodes "D.O.C." and "The Brig"
*What happened when Walt was with the Others
*Comic relief with Doctor Arzt (features the monster)
*Sexual tension between Sun and another character back in season one
*Doctor Arzt fleshed out more
*Ethan fleshed out more, explaining some of his behaviour
*Why they stopped playing Golf
*That Jack has "work to do"

also
*They threw in a deleted scene from "A Tale of Two Cities" (pretty lame)

(I still have not watched last nights episode.)

 

[Griffith]

Re: Lost Season 4

Well, I looked at all the Mobisodes on youtube, of course I had to watch them all with awful subs that blocked out Jin and Sun's dialogue (you'd think a show this popular would have more clean high quality uploads for it's media). That aside, they were fun, especially seeing them recreate the looks of the past seasons. These are the kinds of neat little details and fun stuff they use to fill out and make stinkers like last week's episode passable. That scene where Ben shows Locke the Widmore tape would have made a nice one of these for example. They also used to use them to further round out the good episodes too, some of the lighter ones reminded me how fun this show could be in its day.

P.S. A.C, what deleted scene from Two Cities? The only one I've seen is the one with Jack stalking his wife at the playground (which I enjoyed, "Is that him, the guy with the art supplies"). They sneak something else into one of these?

 

[A.C]

Re: Lost Season 4

P.S. A.C, what deleted scene from Two Cities? The only one I've seen is the one with Jack stalking his wife at the playground (which I enjoyed, "Is that him, the guy with the art supplies"). They sneak something else into one of these?

"The Envelope" is a deleted scene they didn't even bother to put on the Season 3 DVD. At least I'm 99.9% sure it's a deleted scene since JJ is credited for co-writing it (he co-wrote Two Cities) but he isn't involved in writing for the show anymore and certainly not the mobisodes.

Spoiler

Yeah, I'm still confused after seeing this episode who the Oceanic Six are. I guess it's Aaron unless Jin died between them getting off the Island and this flashforward. Before they visited Jin's grave I thought they had divorced and that Sun had another husband, and when Hurley showed up I was like whoah! Don't tell me she hooked up with Hurley in the future
I enjoyed the Freighter scenes but the rest was boring. I'm not sure it's Michael's revelation scene that is supposed to be awesome, I think it's his entire arc this season. I'm very interested to learn why and how he's Ben's man on the boat.

 

[Aazealh]

Re: Lost Season 4

Spoiler

Jesus Christ, what a twist that was. Honestly I didn't see it coming at all. I was even perplexed when they did the ambassador thing and Hurley showed up. I think it was very well done (for a change ), even though the little things Griff pointed out are true. I have to say, though, that I'm quite sad that Jin died. Despite some of the bullshit the writers pushed on him, he was one of my favorite characters from the start. What a bummer. I also guess that means we might not see the Koreans anymore after this season, as I wonder what reason Sun could have to go back to the island (as well as what use she'd be).

Spoiler

I was hoping that during his karma/fish conversation with Bernard

Spoiler

Man, was that shit awful. "Hey, Asian man, do you know what karma is? Hey, professional fisherman, hold your line, you've just got a fish!" Give me a break.

Spoiler

Also, I guess Aaron is now 99.9% confirmed as one of Six since we were supposed to know them all by the end of this one (A.C?), but of course, the retarded debate could linger on the web forever, with more retarded theories and arguments such as, "theres no way he is cuz a baby cant count."

Spoiler

Well, honestly it makes the most sense that he counts as one of them. Of course the producers could pull off some bullshit about it, but have you ever heard of a child not being counted in one such case by the news? It's never happened. Never. He should count as one of them for it to make sense in any case, otherwise it's just a bad move from the writers. BTW, I managed to avoid reading your spoiler for next week's episode while quoting your posting, I'm so proud.

Spoiler

Yes, boat janitor = awesome.

Spoiler

Hahaha you should have seen my face when the guy called "Johnson" to come clean the room. I was snickering and rolling my eyes up at the same time. Anyway, totally worthless scene. Sayid's obvious hostility was funny to see though. BTW, who wants to bet that they'll pull a Goodwin on Michael and make him a super nice, misunderstood guy while the last time we saw him he was a crazy, selfish, contemptible murderer?

*Sexual tension between Sun and another character back in season one

Oh, more of that, sounds great.

 

[A.C]

Re: Lost Season 4

Hahaha you should have seen my face when the guy called "Johnson" to come clean the room. I was snickering and rolling my eyes up at the same time. Anyway, totally worthless scene.

Jesus Christ, what's wrong with you man? That scene was awesome. Even though I knew who was coming out of the shadows I was still incredibly pleased with how it was executed. Next episode is going to be the shit.

Sayid's obvious hostility was funny to see though.

It's kinda funny, because Sayid was just like Michael once upon a time betraying and killing his comrades to let a murderous woman be set free. Having Sayid be the first one to deal with Michael's betrayal is a great move by the writers, and probably planned since Season 1.

BTW, who wants to bet that they'll pull a Goodwin on Michael and make him a super nice, misunderstood guy while the last time we saw him he was a crazy, selfish, contemptible murderer?

Michael is a super nice, misunderstood guy. He hated his actions even before he pulled the trigger. He had a bitch ex-girlfriend who took his son away, and he took all the hate from Walt by not telling his son that his father in law wanted Walt gone. He's the father who will do anything for his son. Family is more important than anything and he had to get his son out of there. I almost sympathize with Michael and I think he's a great character.

 

[Griffith]

Re: Lost Season 4

Next episode is going to be the shit.

If it fills in the blanks on Michael, it very well may be.

It's kinda funny, because Sayid was just like Michael once upon a time betraying and killing his comrades to let a murderous woman be set free.

Well, that's one way to compare two unlike characters and situations. Anyway, I don't think that's a fair or even genuine analysis of the scene on your part, more an obvious and strained defense of Michael.

Having Sayid be the first one to deal with Michael's betrayal is a great move by the writers, and probably planned since Season 1.

Now you're just trolling. =)

Michael is a super nice, misunderstood guy. He hated his actions even before he pulled the trigger. He had a bitch ex-girlfriend who took his son away, and he took all the hate from Walt by not telling his son that his father in law wanted Walt gone. He's the father who will do anything for his son. Family is more important than anything and he had to get his son out of there. I almost sympathize with Michael and I think he's a great character.

Michael is a good character, but you do him a disservice trying to butter him up for us. What makes him interesting are both the good and the bad of him. You act like he's a nice guy or misunderstood just because he had good intentions, or more like good pretensions in this case, but that doesn't make up for what he's actually done. You talk about his intentions and self-made misfortune like they make up for his reprehensibly selfish decisions and actions, which he uses his own son to justify to himself. Michael tries to be a good person and father, but like in his previous life, he's failed and proven to be a selfish, whiny loser. He makes bad decisions, for himself and his son, he does terrible things, and he's bad news for anyone with the misfortune of knowing him. He didn't have to kill anybody, he wasn't forced into it in the least, there were plenty of alternatives had he bothered to explore them, but instead he betrayed and murdered those who could have helped him, and that was totally his prerogative. He put himself in that position in the first place. Furthermore, while his girlfriend certainly wasn't the most sympathetic of characters, what's that have to do with Michael's actions? If he wanted to be a good father, he could have tried acting like a man first, both then and on the island. Michael has himself to blame for her leaving him, he was a go nowhere loser living off of her, and making excuses for his artistic and financial failure, and lack of drive, he didn't seem too motivated to take responsibility for and improve his situation. That's Michael in a nutshell. He gave up his rights to his son as long as he didn't have to take responsibility for that either, and when it comes down to it, it's because he really couldn't handle the responsibility of raising him, and was fine being the "victim" once he was done putting on a show. He wasn't committed to being a father to Walt, nor was he robbed of that chance, and as seen when he was forced to take Walt back and he quickly tried to pawn him off again on a family member, so he wasn't exactly sitting around just waiting for that second chance. Family wasn't so important then, and it wasn't his preference when he lost Walt, his own personal interests were, but Michael is a person who likes to say the right things. He wants to be noble, but don't fool yourself, he's an artist and a romantic, as well as dangerously immature, stupid, and selfish, and because he doesn't have the substance or principles to match his words, he's the worst kind of loser, capable of anything, as we've seen. Anyway, I say this liking Michael, I understand the tragedy of his character, but it's of his own making, and I hope he'll grow up and make good on it all eventually, otherwise...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ppZqj65lf64

 

[Walter]

Re: Lost Season 4

You nailed it. A.C, you're reaching too far trying to make Michael a great guy.

 

[Aazealh]

Re: Lost Season 4

Jesus Christ, what's wrong with you man? That scene was awesome. Even though I knew who was coming out of the shadows I was still incredibly pleased with how it was executed. Next episode is going to be the shit.

I don't dream of sucking the Lost producers' cocks, I guess that's what's wrong with me. The scene wasn't bad, but it did nothing special other than showing off Michael when we'd been told over and over that he'd be back. If it had been kept under the lid it could have been pretty cool because of the surprise, but after months of "MICHAEL'S BACK!!" it was underwhelming. And I expected it to be underwhelming, don't be mistaken, but it was just not very original or anything. It's not awesome in the least.

It's kinda funny, because Sayid was just like Michael once upon a time betraying and killing his comrades to let a murderous woman be set free.

What an unfair comparison. You're reaching dude. And I doubt the writers even thought about this.

Michael is a super nice, misunderstood guy.

He's a super annoying, incompetent and stupid guy. Griff already nailed it so I'm not going to restate the same points, but refusing to acknowledge the character's giant defaults won't achieve anything. It's only your loss.