Author Topic: Episode 307  (Read 90148 times)

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Offline Aazealh

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Re: Episode 307
« Reply #250 on: October 02, 2009, 12:07:50 PM »
However, I always interpreted the insignia/mark we've seen used by followers of the Holy See as some representation of a symbolized Falcon...?

Of course it looks like a stylized falcon, especially to us, considering what we know. But that doesn't mean it's the only thing it symbolizes (in fact it isn't, as we've know for a very, very long time), and there's more to it than just the falcon part too. Furthermore, only that very specific symbol is used, we've never seen any actual falcons so far. In Falconia on the other hand, we have plenty of falcon statues and other esoteric symbols, but no sign of the Holy See's emblem.

Argh, I "re-read" the episode before my previous post, and just realizes after your post that we do! :schierke: And it's somehow inspired by Rome I guess (the Colosseum, St. Peter's Square). But no church/temple in view (for now), that's for sure!

Something tells me you didn't read the whole thread carefully. :femto:

Offline asmer

Re: Episode 307
« Reply #251 on: October 02, 2009, 12:21:57 PM »
Furthermore, only that very specific symbol is used, we've never seen any actual falcons so far.
Right, I must agree with that.... What is a bit misleading to me is that we don't know if that dream everybody had about a Falcon was part of the Holy See's religion, something that was awaited for a long time, or not. But with the little details we have about the Holy See's scriptures, I have to admit the Falcon symbolism can't be clearly associated with the Holy See.........

Something tells me you didn't read the whole thread carefully. :femto:
Well.... I tried to, but with all those colleagues passing behind my desk, and all those working people around here, it's not easy to read a thread peacefully at work!! :troll:

Online Walter

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Re: Episode 307
« Reply #252 on: October 02, 2009, 12:25:19 PM »
Regarding the Falcon symbols in Falconia, the main insignia above the gate to the city really looks familiar to me, though I do agree it's a bit of a stretch.



When I first saw this, I thought hm, the arrangement of the wings at the bottom look a little familiar. They're curved a little unnaturally, unlike the others, which just look like outspread wings. These appear to be forming the double helix evident in the Holy See symbol, the Brand, and  :idea:

Well, that's just my take on it anyway  :void:
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Offline Aazealh

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Re: Episode 307
« Reply #253 on: October 02, 2009, 12:43:27 PM »
What is a bit misleading to me is that we don't know if that dream everybody had about a Falcon was part of the Holy See's religion, something that was awaited for a long time, or not.

Nothing so far has suggested it was the case.

Regarding the Falcon symbols in Falconia, the main insignia above the gate to the city really looks familiar to me, though I do agree it's a bit of a stretch.

Neat observation, but a bit of a stretch, I have to agree.

Online Walter

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Re: Episode 307
« Reply #254 on: October 02, 2009, 12:46:13 PM »
Another thing I noticed that hasn't really been discussed at length yet, the dome visible behind Falconia. There have been arguments about what it could be. But by raising the contrast around the dome, you can get a good idea.

   

This is the top of the dome. You can see the cloud shape around it is consistent with what you can see THROUGH the dome, meaning that it's likely a giant, translucent dome.
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Offline Aazealh

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Re: Episode 307
« Reply #255 on: October 02, 2009, 12:48:23 PM »
Now that is what I call a brilliant observation! :guts:

This is the top of the dome. You can see the cloud shape around it is consistent with what you can see THROUGH the dome, meaning that it's likely a giant, translucent dome.


Case closed! :carcus:

Offline asmer

Re: Episode 307
« Reply #256 on: October 02, 2009, 01:04:13 PM »
meaning that it's likely a giant, translucent dome
Yes, good find!!! :isidro:

but a bit of a stretch
A bit of a stretch, but I can see the double helix there!!

Offline Jaze1618

Re: Episode 307
« Reply #257 on: October 02, 2009, 01:12:15 PM »
Regarding the Falcon symbols in Falconia, the main insignia above the gate to the city really looks familiar to me, though I do agree it's a bit of a stretch.

http://skullknight.net/images/falconia-symbol.jpg

When I first saw this, I thought hm, the arrangement of the wings at the bottom look a little familiar. They're curved a little unnaturally, unlike the others, which just look like outspread wings. These appear to be forming the double helix evident in the Holy See symbol, the Brand, and  :idea:

Well, that's just my take on it anyway  :void:


Notice also how the roots of the giant tree could also shoot deep down, into the shape of a double helix.

Online Walter

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Re: Episode 307
« Reply #258 on: October 02, 2009, 01:20:48 PM »

Notice also how the roots of the giant tree could also shoot deep down, into the shape of a double helix.
Yeah, thats one of the first thoughts I had when I saw the two-page spread put together of that. But Im unsure if there will indeed be a connection. Could just be where Ganishka's legs were, afterall  :flora:
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Offline Skeleton

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Re: Episode 307
« Reply #259 on: October 02, 2009, 04:13:08 PM »
http://skullknight.net/images/falconia-symbol.jpg

This may just be me being weird, but the first thing I thought of when I saw that was of the seraphim in Christianity.  Or more generally to the angelic hierarchy where the closer to the "top" you go, the more wings the angels have (angels and archangels having two, cherubim have four,  seraphim have six).  The seraphim, in Christianity, are described as an angel's face surrounded by six wings (six pairs, perhaps?  :serpico:) and are the top of the angel food chain, the closest ones to God.  I don't know though.  I'm just throwing the idea out there.

Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seraphim#Seraphim_in_Christianity

Online Walter

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Re: Episode 307
« Reply #260 on: October 02, 2009, 04:14:52 PM »
The seraphim, in Christianity, are described as an angel's face surrounded by six wings (six pairs, perhaps?  :serpico:) and are the top of the angel food chain, the closest ones to God.  I don't know though.  I'm just throwing the idea out there.

Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seraphim#Seraphim_in_Christianity
I'd say that makes much more sense than my theory.  :guts:  Visually and figuratively, I can see a parallel.
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Offline RaffoBaffo

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Re: Episode 307
« Reply #261 on: October 02, 2009, 09:41:09 PM »
This may just be me being weird, but the first thing I thought of when I saw that was of the seraphim in Christianity.  Or more generally to the angelic hierarchy where the closer to the "top" you go, the more wings the angels have (angels and archangels having two, cherubim have four,  seraphim have six).  The seraphim, in Christianity, are described as an angel's face surrounded by six wings (six pairs, perhaps?  :serpico:) and are the top of the angel food chain, the closest ones to God.  I don't know though.  I'm just throwing the idea out there.

Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seraphim#Seraphim_in_Christianity

Lucifer was a Seraphim but unlike other Seraphim who had six wings, Lucifer was featured to have twelve wings.  :badbone:

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Offline Rhombaad

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Re: Episode 307
« Reply #262 on: October 03, 2009, 01:12:43 AM »
Lucifer was a Seraphim but unlike other Seraphim who had six wings, Lucifer was featured to have twelve wings.  :badbone:

Well, there ya go. :griffnotevil:

Online Walter

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Re: Episode 307
« Reply #263 on: October 03, 2009, 04:21:17 AM »
I've read comments wondering what will happen with the former Kushans. I think with Falconia being the site of the merging and the appearance of the Gani-tree connecting with several world religions, the city could become the melting pot for all cultures. And maybe even beyond that -- a holy city, a mecca, ruled by a man people regard as a God. We could even be seeing the birth of a new religion here right before our eyes.

So many possibilities for the future... I can hardly wait.
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Offline TheBranded1

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Re: Episode 307
« Reply #264 on: October 03, 2009, 04:46:08 AM »
You know Walter when you put it that way, it also kinda reminded me of the Citadel in Mass Effect. Of course is not the same, but it sure has many different cultures and races. I do think with the Size of Falconia it will be a melting pot. Maybe we'll see some kind of pilgrimage by people far away just to witness it and they might end up staying.

Online Walter

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Re: Episode 307
« Reply #265 on: October 03, 2009, 04:58:52 AM »
You know Walter when you put it that way, it also kinda reminded me of the Citadel in Mass Effect.
Hahaha I never expected to be discussing ME in the current episodes thread  :ganishka: But yeah, and the two cities could also be connected by their ... purpose.  :femto:

Quote
Maybe we'll see some kind of pilgrimage by people far away just to witness it and they might end up staying.
Yeah and they might seek it out for other reasons as well -- protection.
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Offline Aazealh

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Re: Episode 307
« Reply #266 on: October 03, 2009, 07:08:04 AM »
A bit of a stretch

But a neat observation nonetheless.

Lucifer was a Seraphim but unlike other Seraphim who had six wings, Lucifer was featured to have twelve wings.  :badbone:

I've never heard of this. What's your source?

Offline Marik

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Re: Episode 307
« Reply #267 on: October 03, 2009, 08:32:04 AM »
Now that is what I call a brilliant observation! :guts:

Yeah, indeed. Truly a good finding.

I've never heard of this. What's your source?

The only thing that comes in my mind is the Lucifer from Bastard!!, but I don't know how reliable as source it'd be.

Offline Aazealh

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Re: Episode 307
« Reply #268 on: October 03, 2009, 10:50:05 AM »
I don't know how reliable as source it'd be.

Unreliable.

Offline RaffoBaffo

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Re: Episode 307
« Reply #269 on: October 03, 2009, 11:02:28 AM »
I've never heard of this. What's your source?
Italian Wiki,for example: http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gerarchia_degli_angeli

The only thing that comes in my mind is the Lucifer from Bastard!!, but I don't know how reliable as source it'd be.
Or Satan from Devilman:
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Offline Aazealh

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Re: Episode 307
« Reply #270 on: October 03, 2009, 11:12:28 AM »
Italian Wiki,for example: http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gerarchia_degli_angeli

Sorry to say, but no source is cited for this particular information in that Wikipedia article... I'm curious to know where it is written in the Bible.

Offline RaffoBaffo

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Re: Episode 307
« Reply #271 on: October 03, 2009, 11:55:58 AM »
Sorry to say, but no source is cited for this particular information in that Wikipedia article... I'm curious to know where it is written in the Bible.
I don't know   :???:
I will do a research

EDIT:

Quote
Lucifer was the Creator's finest creation: the angel Samael, called Lucifer. It means "the bringer of light." Of all the angels he was the wisest, the most beautiful, the most poweful.Saving only the Creator, he is, perhaps, the most powerful being there is.
Quote
Samael is the "chief of Satans" (Deut. R. xi. 9; Jellinek, "B. H." i. 125), quite in the sense of "the prince of the devils" mentioned in Matt. ix. 34; but, on the other hand, he is "the great prince in heaven." (Pirḳe R. El. xiii., beginning), who rules over angels and powers (ib.; Martyrdom of Isaiah, ii. 2). As the incarnation of evil he is the celestial patron of the sinful empire of Rome, with which Edom and Esau are identified (Tan. on Gen. xxxii. 35; Jellinek, l.c. vi. 31, 109, etc.). He flies through the air like a bird (Targ. to Job xxviii. 7), and, while the ḥayyot and ofannim have only six wings, he has twelve, and commands a whole army of demons (Pirḳe R. El. xiii.). In so far as he is identified with the serpent ("J. Q. R." vi. 12), with carnal desire (Yeẓer ha-Ra'), and with the angel of death, all legends associated with Satan refer equally to him, while as a miscreant he is compared to Belial ( = "worthless"; see collection of material in Bousset, "Antichrist," pp. 99-101).
All these descriptions of Samael show that he was regarded simply as the principle of evil that brought upon Israel and Judah every misfortune that befell them. Even at the creation of the world he was Lucifer, who ever sought evil and who began his malignant activity with Adam. His opponent is Michael, who represents the beneficent principle, and who frequently comes into conflict with him (comp. Jew. Encyc. viii. 536 et seq.; Lucken, "Michael," pp. 22 et seq.).

Quote
In traditions concerning the rebellion of the angels in heaven (PdRE 1314 (1852)), he is the leader of the rebel armies. Prior to his defeat he had 12 wings, and his place was higher than the ḥayyot ("holy heavenly creatures") and the seraphim. Several tasks are attributed to him: Samael is in charge of all the nations but has no power over Israel except on the Day of Atonement, when the scapegoat serves as bribe for him (ibid. 46).


This is all I've found
« Last Edit: October 03, 2009, 12:06:54 PM by RaffoBaffo »
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Offline The Beast of Darkness

Re: Episode 307
« Reply #272 on: October 03, 2009, 12:57:38 PM »
By looking at the insignia:


It reminded me the illustration on the cover of volume 18:
http://www.skullknight.net/encyclopedia/merchandise/manga/images/18high.jpg

Hope that we get the chance to see Griffith in this form, sooner or later!  :griffnotevil:

Offline Aazealh

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Re: Episode 307
« Reply #273 on: October 03, 2009, 02:01:58 PM »
This is all I've found

Ok, thanks anyway. This notion concerning Samael seems to stem from the Pirke deRabbi Eliezer then.

By looking at the insignia:

It reminded me the illustration on the cover of volume 18

I agree, the wing motif in general is reminiscent of that illustration.

Offline royoak

Re: Episode 307
« Reply #274 on: October 03, 2009, 05:53:02 PM »
Quote
Lucifer was a but unlike other Seraphim who had six wings, Lucifer was featured to have twelve wings.  :badbone:

I've never heard of this. What's your source?

My interest in religion is rather rudimentary but perhaps I can shed a bit a light concerning that.

First of all, Lucifer was a Seraphim but has only six wings Cherub.
Sammael (jewish lore, Angel of death) has according to jewish legends 12 wings.
So, no definite source with name and date, only a quote:
"that great serpent with 12 wings that draws after him, in his fall, the solar system."

Sammael's etymology is "Venom of God". He's referred to as accuser, destroyer and seducer hence
he's also known as Satan. (One might argue that as well, since the Book of Enoch, the old Testament
and other sources, depict them as different beings (i.e. Satan=Sataniel))

Conclusion:
Lucifer =/= Satan (translation error, a misreading of Isaiah 14:12)
Lucifer: 6 4 wings (Seraphim Cherub)
Sammael (or Satan): 12 wings (source: jewish legends)

« Last Edit: October 03, 2009, 07:16:43 PM by royoak »
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