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Community => Shootin' the Breeze => Movies, TV, Books & Music => Topic started by: Griffith on January 23, 2017, 06:38:16 PM

Title: Star Wars: The Last Jedi
Post by: Griffith on January 23, 2017, 06:38:16 PM
(http://a.dilcdn.com/bl/wp-content/uploads/sites/6/2017/01/viii-logo-tall-1536x864-414669331908.jpg)

Rian Johnson is already showing off superior writing skills with his Episode VIII title. Simple, elegant, and to the point (and at least *A* point), if a bit generic. My main critique is that if this wasn't already an old EU title, it sounds like it would have been (edit: http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/The_Last_Jedi yep, and so recent too, my favorite part is it was only called that because the other generic, Jedi-centric title the author wanted was already used lol).

The red logo with the title is a nice RotJ callback too, plus the obvious message that THERE WILL BE BLOOD (or cauterized wounds)! As everyone will note the title can be singular and/or plural as needed. I don't like it as a sign for Luke's odds of making it out of the movie as anything but a force ghost though. But, sadly, perhaps Carrie Fisher's death helps his chances if they need to transfer unfinished family business to him. On that subject, at some point I'd like for them to arrange a warrior's death for her in a major space battle or something, dying for the cause, and a viking funeral, rather than some of the nonsense ideas I've heard like recasting (get real) or cgi (gross).

In cases like this I feel sticking closer to the truth, she died tragically, is better than trying some unconvincing cinematic gymnastics to keep the dead alive. Let it work for the story and honor her accordingly rather than try swiming against such a powerful current.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi
Post by: Walter on January 23, 2017, 07:13:32 PM
Nice. Very interested in learning about Luke's role in this new arc, and the kind of man he's become over the years.

As for the title, sure it's THE LAST JEDI -- until Episode X. "Well Luke was the last Jedi -- from a certain point of view."

(http://www.skullknight.net/images/luke-pov.gif)

December 15, 2017 doesn't sound too far away anymore.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi
Post by: Griffith on January 23, 2017, 07:42:31 PM
Nice. Very interested in learning about Luke's role in this new arc, and the kind of man he's become over the years.

Of course, that was my main draw to the last movie and this revival in general, and they managed to defer it for another movie. It worked though! Hopefully, this means we can really focus in on Luke, Rey and the rest with the restart out of the way.

Quote
As for the title, sure it's THE LAST JEDI -- until Episode X.

And they only just "Returned" a movie before technically, though they were or are ever really gone.  Episode IX - Revamp of the Jedi.

Quote
"Well Luke was the last Jedi -- from a certain point of view."

(http://www.skullknight.net/images/luke-pov.gif)
Careful with that talk... :magni:

(https://riithewordsmith.files.wordpress.com/2016/06/tumblr_m6wl0khutz1r7nc50.gif?w=640)
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi
Post by: MrFlibble on January 24, 2017, 03:07:45 PM
I don't like the title, we've already had a "Last Jedi" scenario in episode VI. It's a strecth but the red font has my hopes up, hopefully it means the story will take a dark or unexpected turn.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi
Post by: Griffith on January 24, 2017, 05:43:31 PM
I don't like the title, we've already had a "Last Jedi" scenario in episode VI. It's a strecth but the red font has my hopes up, hopefully it means the story will take a dark or unexpected turn.

Well, technically that was the Return of the... Last Jedi. :carcus: I don't have a problem with the similarity because I'm assuming they pretty clearly mean the opposite. Return of the Jedi was a rousing, triumphant return and redemption story whereas this sounds like it has a more dire connotation; the last Jedi as in an endangered species on the verge of finally being wiped out. Which will likely be the main aim of the villains this time: Kill Luke and Rey before he can make her a Jedi (it's already stated in TFA that if Luke returns the "new Jedi" will rise, which could just mean Rey as the chosen one and/or the Jedi as an order). Just be glad it's not called Rise of the Jedi given what a popular naming convention that's become, it's like the "resurrection" of today. Episode IX: Rise of the New Jedi Resurrection! (http://www.skullknight.net/images/gutsbarf.gif)

Also, as Mark Hamil himself noted, you gotta dig the poignant Samurai vibe it has.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi
Post by: Arc on January 24, 2017, 09:02:16 PM
Get hyyyypee, it's in moments like these I have to return to the starwars gangsta rap.  :guts:
 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ij4w7ChpuaM (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ij4w7ChpuaM)

But for real I am pretty excited for this- good or bad. I hope they decide to give Chewbacca more screen time; I need to see him rip a stormtroopers arm off. Hopefully after ~35 years Hamill will finally be able to play a cooler version of Luke to solidify his Badass ranking up there with Yoda and Obi-wan.

I really liked Rey's character and I only see it getting better with time. Hopefully they will be able to make Kylo Ren feel like more of a formidable villan- after the first movie he seemed pretty whiny to me, like a dark side version of Luke from Ep IV.

As for the title I feel like it strongly suggests the entire movie will be based around Luke and maybe even cover what happened after Ep VI where Luke was "The Last Jedi" and then the tragedies that led him to where he is now. I'm not trying to suggest it will be a flashback movie or anything, just that I think we will see some of these things explained in further detail.

Edit: Forgot to say that as much as the movie I am SUPER excited for another score from John Williams, that stuff is good for the soul.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi
Post by: jackson_hurley on January 24, 2017, 09:27:11 PM
Just be glad it's not called Rise of the Jedi given what a popular naming convention that's become, it's like the "resurrection" of today. Episode IX: Rise of the New Jedi Resurrection!

Don't you mean "Rise of the last new jedi's resurrection"  :carcus:

That said, I have yet to watch episode VII and rogue one (even if that one is a stand alone)
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi
Post by: Griffith on January 24, 2017, 10:56:12 PM
Get hyyyypee, it's in moments like these I have to return to the starwars gangsta rap.  :guts:
 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ij4w7ChpuaM (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ij4w7ChpuaM)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cp-Ys_iFwnM

I'm an OG trilogy only guy, no special editions. :griffnotevil:

But for real I am pretty excited for this- good or bad.

Why would you be excited for it to be bad, though? You're excitement can be conditional on the prospect of it being good. =)

Hopefully after ~35 years Hamill will finally be able to play a cooler version of Luke to solidify his Badass ranking up there with Yoda and Obi-wan.

Actually, a big problem to me with post-Jedi EU Luke is the tendency to make him overpowered. I think that has more to do with our own desires than what we saw of him or the force in the original trilogy (the Emperor kicked his ass at will, but Luke was tenaciously pious and willing to accept defeat). I'd like to see them make his relationship to the force more complicated and him vulnerable as a consequence, even if he's figured out how to blow up planets with his mind (show the burden of his power, but without being a killjoy). There's just been major force power creep since that movie, even Vader and Yoda were mortal back then (and Obi Wan was a "weak old man" =), but it went from being like a special innate telepathy ability that could be developed into telekinesis to any manner of fucking super power. Like, originally the force could help you make a jump shot from half court if you practiced, but then in the EU and prequels people started dunking from there with the force. Take it back down a notch. I think TFA was a good balance where Rey and Kylo were very powerful because of the force, but it was still based on their abilities and skills rather than just instant power winning or losing.

That said, I have yet to watch episode VII and rogue one (even if that one is a stand alone)

Definitely check out TFA just for the wish fulfillment aspect (good or bad! =), but Rogue One is as unessential and skippable as it was designed to be. Or, use your 1000th post to explain why you don't want to watch them, if that's the case.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi
Post by: Sancho on January 24, 2017, 11:49:14 PM
I feel a disturbance in the Force. It tells me Luke is not making out alive.

I was of the opinion that this new trilogy was totally unnecessary to begin with since when Episode VII was announced and i remain such now. Episode VII had VERY great flaws, the director Abrams didn't know the S of Star Wars and the whole concept of the Force. The prequels had their flaws too sure, but at least they pictured the whole settings and universe of Star Wars during the Republic as it has been conceived by its creator.
The Jedi, Yoda mostly, didn't speak wise and crypting lines just for the sake of it, George Lucas had a clear idea of the whole philosophy behind the Force (being its creator  :ganishka:). The same cannot be said for character Maz Kanata in TFA sadly, who instead seems really a character just put there, spitting random lines, just for the sake of getting new casual viewers more accustomed with the Force.
And i think the Expanded Universe was just good as it was, it had both low, sure, but also high quality contents.

If only the villain Kylo Ren was a bit more.... intimidating, i would feel a lot more excited to see how they're gonna deal with him, but instead he has been underwhelmingly built like some stereotypical conflicted and insecure young man who rebels to his parents and all. I hope at least Supreme Leader Snoke has some surprise and plot twist to show in the next 2 episodes regarding his identity and past, for now i don't like him at all, he seems too much of a bland character, but i don't want to make hasty judgements.

Let's hope this new director will be a bit more.... "creative" than the last one.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi
Post by: Arc on January 24, 2017, 11:51:01 PM
I'm an OG trilogy only guy, no special editions. :griffnotevil:

Haha I actually had them both open when i was writing that post.
Definitely have fond memories of the original. Me and a few of my pals actually did this for our senior year talent show- I was vader and had a suit that was waaaay too small for me. Turned out pretty well though, many laughs were had.

Why would you be excited for it to be bad, though? You're excitement can be conditional on the prospect of it being good. =)

Conceded.

There's just been major force power creep since that movie, even Vader and Yoda were mortal back then (and Obi Wan was a "weak old man")

Woa woa now I wasn't trying to imply that he needed prequel level battle skills. I mean badass like Obi-wan who was man enough to come out of exile and ends up disabling some of the defences on the Deathstar and throwing down with Vader. Badass like Yoda who lived in exile on a very force sensitive planet- I mean Luke's relationship with the force was amplified there. Just walking around he confronted one of his greatest aversions, I imagine Yoda would have been confronted in a similar way many times in the 20 odd years he was living there. Yoda's got some badass wisdom, no doubt. Hopefully Luke can live up to his masters.

I'd like to see them make his relationship to the force more complicated and him vulnerable as a consequence...

I feel like you may get just what you want, the stage is set! There is already a potential scar upon the piousness that let him convert Vader and take down the Emp. I can only imagine the effects it would have had on him when he had his students cut down. I could definitely see it straining his relationship with the force. I wonder what he would see if he went back to Dagobah.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi
Post by: Skeleton on January 25, 2017, 05:27:38 AM
For some reason, everyone and their mom was deadset on seeing Luke bite the bullet in Episode 8. It looks like that might just happen.

Personally I think the title refers to something else entirely:

Quote from: Episode VIII: The Last Jedi script
[The film starts where TFA ended.]

REY: Luke, here's your old lightsaber. Can you train me as a Jedi now?

LUKE: I'm afraid I can't.

REY: Why?

LUKE: Because I'm not a Jedi. I never completed the training to be a Jedi knight. And Yoda said the training had to be completed.

REY: But on his deathbed didn't Yoda say "lolz jk, just kill Vader and we'll call it even?"

LUKE: Yes, but that was just shitty writing so they wouldn't have to tie up the loose ends from the previous film.

REY: Well damn.  So how am I supposed to become a Jedi if you can't train me?

LUKE: While searching for temples all these years I found someone who can train you. He's the final living Jedi.

REY: You mean he's the Last Jedi?

LUKE: Yes, the Last Jedi. Now go to him, learn the ways of the Jedi, and become a Jedi so when he dies immediately after your completion you'll become The Last Jedi.

REY: Ok. See you later.

LUKE: Not likely. The Knights of Ren are going to show up and kill me right after you leave. By the way, I'm your father. Have a good trip.

[Scene 2: Rey lands on a strange, distant planet. Looking into the distance is a robed figure. His two mechanical hands are behind his back.]

REY: Are you the Last Jedi?

[The figure turns around, revealing a heavily scarred and aged Mace Windu.]

MACE: Yes, I am.

REY: I want to become a Jedi.

MACE: Then let's start this motherfucking training on this motherfucking planet!

Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi
Post by: jackson_hurley on January 25, 2017, 02:39:23 PM
Definitely check out TFA just for the wish fulfillment aspect (good or bad! =), but Rogue One is as unessential and skippable as it was designed to be. Or, use your 1000th post to explain why you don't want to watch them, if that's the case.

Well I wanted to save my 1000th post for a new episode but oh well, busted! I did not watch TFA because as much as I like Star wars, I've never felt the need to rush on it. Apparently it's been on netflix for a while so I will take some time for it.

Rogue One never really interested me. I don't really care for little tie-in like that and well we know they will succeed in getting the plans and deliver them to the rebels etc etc. So no, I don't feel the need to watch how it happened. I probably will watch at some point, but when?

I'm more anxious to watch my new dragon ball super episode you know... as cheesy as it is, it's a good sunday morning-coffee-waking-show...

I'm actually not very good at watching new movies.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi
Post by: Griffith on January 26, 2017, 05:45:54 AM
I was bored: http://transinsano.deviantart.com/art/Star-Wars-The-Last-Jedi-Poster-Mockup-659682375

I guess I should also upload my semi-internet famous Guts vs. Musashi  (http://www.skullknight.net/griffith/swingsml.jpg) mockup! Get the credit I deserve... as the hack I am. :carcus:

I was of the opinion that this new trilogy was totally unnecessary to begin with since when Episode VII was announced and i remain such now. Episode VII had VERY great flaws, the director Abrams didn't know the S of Star Wars and the whole concept of the Force. The prequels had their flaws too sure, but at least they pictured the whole settings and universe of Star Wars during the Republic as it has been conceived by its creator.
The Jedi, Yoda mostly, didn't speak wise and crypting lines just for the sake of it, George Lucas had a clear idea of the whole philosophy behind the Force (being its creator  :ganishka:).

I disagree with a lot of what you're saying. Your criticisms of TFA's "VERY great flaws" [Sad!] are ironic given that the flaws of Lucas' prequels are much the same in kind, only fatal, with little to no inherent mitigating or redemptive value. In general I think you're conflating authenticity with quality where they and Lucas are concerned. BUT, to your point, I find the last third of this video fascinating (skip to about the 2 minute mark):

https://youtu.be/t5TGJquhP1s

It's fascinating to me for a couple of reasons, one very obvious and scarily relevant and insightful to the world today, the other a seemingly insignificant moment that may perfectly crystallize what's been lost between George Lucas' Star Wars, for better or worse, and Kathleen Kennedy's/Disney's hollow reproductions. It also reconciles how the same guy, whose thoughtfulness served the original films so well, and whose overinflated ego completely undermined that subsequently, could be responsible for both trilogies. Them's the breaks when you have an auteur, or a few (https://www.wired.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/11/DXJC0F-1024x749.jpg), in charge as opposed to an overblown corporate focus group ("No time to discuss this in committee!"). That's what gives me hope for Rian Johnson, or anybody with talent and a point of view (so not Colin Trevorrow =), seemingly being given real creative control. Though, it remains to be seen if that holds true, bring on the annual reshoot stories, or yields a positive result; I may not agree with his reinterpretation of Star Wars, but at least I expect a more meaningful interpretation this time.

I'm actually not very good at watching new movies.

A worthy admission for a 1000th post, and at least you're good enough at that not to be banned or driven off in the process, so congratulations! :guts:
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi
Post by: jackson_hurley on January 26, 2017, 01:11:40 PM
A worthy admission for a 1000th post, and at least you're good enough at that not to be banned or driven off in the process, so congratulations! :guts:

Well I figured I deserved it after roughly 10 years of hanging around here as a ghost.
But to stay on topic, reading this thread makes me want to watch TFA faster then planned. I might try it this weekend if the opportunity comes (I like to pretend I'm very busy.)

Joke aside I do have some recording to do this weekend so it might not happen.

(the last "new" movie I watched recently was green room on netflix, so you can have an idea how slow I am in getting up to date.)
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi
Post by: Oburi on January 26, 2017, 01:43:56 PM

The Jedi, Yoda mostly, didn't speak wise and crypting lines just for the sake of it, George Lucas had a clear idea of the whole philosophy behind the Force (being its creator  :ganishka:).

That's not what I took away from the prequels. It seems more like Lucas doesn't really understand the very thing he helped to create in the first place.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi
Post by: Griffith on January 26, 2017, 03:13:17 PM
Well I figured I deserved it after roughly 10 years of hanging around here as a ghost.
But to stay on topic, reading this thread makes me want to watch TFA faster then planned. I might try it this weekend if the opportunity comes (I like to pretend I'm very busy.)

Well, if it happens don't be a (force) ghost and let us know what you thought.

That's not what I took away from the prequels. It seems more like Lucas doesn't really understand the very thing he helped to create in the first place.

(http://images.sequart.org/images/Star-Wars-still-use-the-force-luke-e1415132076759.jpg)

(https://media.licdn.com/mpr/mpr/AAEAAQAAAAAAAAUiAAAAJGM0MWE3MmUxLTk4NTktNDQzNy1iZTdkLTc3NmFhNGZkOGQwNA.jpg)

(http://www.jodocast.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/04/I-Am-a-Jedi-Like-My-Father-Before-Me.jpg)

(https://nefchronicles.files.wordpress.com/2015/12/like-my-father-before-me.gif)

(http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m50y70NMNF1rpl92q.jpg)

(http://media.aintitcool.com/media/uploads/2015/herc/midi_large.jpg)

(http://www.synicon.info/SW/midichlorians/blood5.jpg)

(http://pa1.narvii.com/6048/56c7b95082d3c92cff0d14e60b20eb7eabc0df81_hq.gif)
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi
Post by: jackson_hurley on January 26, 2017, 03:44:11 PM
Well, if it happens don't be a (force) ghost and let us know what you thought.

I certainly will now that I've been sucked in this conversation.  :carcus:
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi
Post by: Aazealh on January 26, 2017, 07:33:05 PM
The prequels had their flaws too sure, but at least they pictured the whole settings and universe of Star Wars during the Republic as it has been conceived by its creator.

The prequels were a travesty. They were no different than any other cash grab like Matrix 2 and 3 and so on. "We'd planned it all along." Sure. The prequels ruined whatever quality existed within the Star Wars universe, as did 99% of the EU garbage.

Star Wars' recipe isn't complicated: it's an ultra classic fantasy story about a peasant boy who dreams of becoming a knight like his father was and guess what? He becomes one! And what do you know, it turns out he's the chosen one and has to save the kingdom (and get the princess) with the help of a few sidekicks. Vader is the Dark Knight (with the Flame Sword to counter Luke's Light Sword) and the Emperor is the Evil Wizard, and Obi Wan is the Old Sage who passes on the torch. None of this is original or super clever or anything. It's a story that was already being told a thousand years ago.

But George Lucas, after learning about the greatest Sci-Fi story of all times (Dune by Frank Herbert, which Jodorowsky had failed to turn into a movie), had the cleverness of switching it to a Sci-Fi context, which made it fresh again. And, being a scholar of cinema, he mixed in aerial battle scenes from his favorite WW2 movies. And that's it. There's nothing more to it, save of course for Lucas' collaborators who added all the other good stuff (fleshing out the characters and so on). And for the groundbreaking special effects, which are the real reason anyone still cares about Star Wars today (as Miura himself commented on when Ep VII came out). The Force doesn't have any depth to it or anything. It's just magic and is 100% lifted from the Asian concept of Qi. Jedi Knights might as well be called Magic Knights.

Anyway, none of that makes Star Wars bad. It was still a cool universe with a lot of potential. But that potential just wasn't delivered on after the original trilogy. I'm not gonna waste my time explaining why the prequels suck as it's been done to death, but they're easily among the worst stories I've ever been subjected to. Nothing about them was good, and that is in large part because Lucas never had any fucking idea what he was doing. He did not have a cohesive story or universe in mind from the beginning, and clearly did not come up with one during the making of the prequels. Episode VII was lackluster to me because it was a faux-sequel/half-reboot frankenstein monster and contained several dumb ideas, but by the mere virtue of following the template of the original trilogy (which is intemporally good as we've seen) it easily surpasses the prequels.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi
Post by: Sareth on January 26, 2017, 11:08:04 PM
As big a fan of Star Wars as I used to be, I just feel absolutely nothing about the upcoming movies. TFA killed all of my hype for the new trilogy. I never even bothered to watch any of the trailers for Rogue One (and still haven't bothered to go see it).
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi
Post by: Johnstantine on January 27, 2017, 05:25:31 PM
He did not have a cohesive story or universe in mind from the beginning, and clearly did not come up with one during the making of the prequels.

Not trying to start an internet fight by any means, but Lucas had the outline for these stories written back in the 80s. So he did have a general idea of where things were going, he just executed it extremely poorly.

Quote
The prequels ruined whatever quality existed within the Star Wars universe, as did 99% of the EU garbage.

As I've said other times, the Clone Wars animated series is absolutely amazing and rekindled my love for Star Wars. I highly recommend it to anyone to watch.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi
Post by: Griffith on January 27, 2017, 05:37:19 PM
He did not have a cohesive story or universe in mind from the beginning, and clearly did not come up with one during the making of the prequels.
Not trying to start an internet fight by any means, but Lucas had the outline for these stories written back in the 80s. So he did have a general idea of where things were going, he just executed it extremely poorly.

These things aren't mutually exclusive, and having some ideas or outlines aren't equal to having a cohesive story and universe planned out, plus his claims have changed so much on this front, including some obvious contradictions and outright lies about how it was "always meant to be X, Y, or Z," as to not be taken too seriously. On that note, here's another thought: those ideas and outlines probably weren't well thought out to begin with, so it's not just poor execution of some supposed master plan if the plan already sucked and was just rehashing more of the same BS, but worse. And considering what we got, that's the most likely and even obvious answer. I don't think Lucas shuttled a bunch of awesome ideas to do some bad shit on the fly as he was actually making the movies.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi
Post by: Johnstantine on January 27, 2017, 06:08:11 PM
These things aren't mutually exclusive, and having some ideas or outlines aren't equal to having a cohesive story and universe planned out, plus his claims have changed so much on this front, including some obvious contradictions and outright lies about how it was "always meant to be X, Y, or Z," as to not be taken too seriously. On that note, here's another thought: those ideas and outlines probably weren't well thought out to begin with, so it's not just poor execution of some supposed master plan if the plan already sucked and was just rehashing more of the same BS, but worse. And considering what we got, that's the most likely and even obvious answer. I don't think Lucas shuttled a bunch of awesome ideas to do some bad shit on the fly as he was actually making the movies.

As always, you sway my way of thinking. It makes sense when put like that, for sure.

Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi
Post by: Hitoshura on April 14, 2017, 03:05:08 PM
Teaser
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zB4I68XVPzQ
(http://i.imgur.com/nsDOVS3.jpg)
:ubik:
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi
Post by: Salem on April 14, 2017, 03:17:39 PM
That poster is breathtaking.  Being truly honest, and I know this is a teaser, but my hype fizzled out on the last line a little.  Maybe just the way it was put together.  Still very excited.  Something like the Jedi ending for good is bound to happen and I hope the script delivers.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi
Post by: Johnstantine on April 14, 2017, 03:19:25 PM
Hnnnnnngh
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi
Post by: IncantatioN on April 14, 2017, 03:36:11 PM
Neat poster.

Teaser
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zB4I68XVPzQ
Watched it on mute cos I'm at work but it looks decent. There's some drama, action, explosions, running, BB, sabers. When it finished, I though to myself "Ok, I'm gonna have to watch the first one again before diving into this one ..." but the next moment, I figured I didn't have to. Episode VII didn't click with me to the extent that I feel the need to watch it a third time. I watched it again this past December after a year of it's release and it felt flat.

The video is over 2 mins long, why call it a teaser?!
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi
Post by: Grail on April 14, 2017, 03:48:02 PM
Cool poster. The lightsaber glow tapering from blue to red, how foreboding! :rakshas:
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi
Post by: Johnstantine on April 14, 2017, 03:50:40 PM
The video is over 2 mins long, why call it a teaser?!

For die-hard fans such as myself, anything less than the movie proper is a teaser.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi
Post by: IncantatioN on April 14, 2017, 04:11:21 PM
For die-hard fans such as myself, anything less than the movie proper is a teaser.
Ahahaha, cool beans! I think this'll be the last video I watch before actually watching the film cos I don't want to get spoiled.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi
Post by: Walter on April 14, 2017, 05:21:21 PM
It looks alright. Nothing blowing me away yet, but the final line is intriguing.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi
Post by: Griffith on April 14, 2017, 08:13:59 PM
It was fine, a bit restrained like the final release trailer for the last one which is ok by me, but I wish the first words I heard Luke Skywalker speak in over 30 years weren't generic fodder for a teaser trailer. In retrospect another reason to give him a proper reintroduction in the last movie after playing his appearance so close to the vest, "Thank God we saved him for this... trailer?"

Anyway, he seems to be in a real dark place, but maybe he changes his tune early since he's likely training Rey, Kylo looks cooler (long hair and a perfect non-disfiguring accent scar! =) and I'm intrigued by the mask mayhem (any doubt he dresses exactly like Vader by Ep 9, if not literally becoming him), and I wonder how involved Finn is going to be in his condition, unless this is mostly material from the first act.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi
Post by: Johnstantine on April 14, 2017, 09:41:47 PM
It was fine, a bit restrained like the final release trailer for the last one which is ok by me, but I wish the first words I heard Luke Skywalker speak in over 30 years wasn't generic fodder for a teaser trailer. In retrospect another reason to give him a proper reintroduction in the last movie after playing his appearance so close to the vest, "Thank God we saved him for this... trailer?"

Anyway, he seems to be in a real dark place, but maybe changes his tune early since he's likely training Rey, Kylo looks cooler and I'm intrigued by the mask, and I wonder how involved Finn is going to be in his condition, unless this is mostly material from the first act.

Probably going end of Dark Empire on us, which I'm okay with.

I've seen enough, so I'll be avoiding future trailers. Same with the new Thor.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi
Post by: Skeleton on April 14, 2017, 10:20:41 PM
The trailer's a bit underwhelming, but I think that's just because I'm so hyped up for this movie.  Other than that, so far so good.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi
Post by: Sareth on April 15, 2017, 11:06:17 AM
Watched the teaser and felt nothing. The Force Awakens really killed all excitement I had for the new trilogy. :sad:
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi
Post by: Griffith on April 15, 2017, 02:33:37 PM
The Force Awakens really killed all excitement I had for the new trilogy. :sad:

Whether it's fair or not, I've seen a lot of this sentiment in reaction to the trailer, and it didn't seem nearly so prevalent a year ago, even among TFA's detractors. I don't really know what people are complaining about though, because the overall gist seems to be, "where's the original greatness to match the classics!?" I too was also looking for Empire Part II when I watched TFA and came away extremely disappointed that it indeed wasn't as good as Empire had no business being. But in hindsight I appreciated the way it revived the franchise by honoring the the past while paving the way for a future and making Star Wars relevant again. I think the biggest single complaint was that while continuing the old story and beginning a new one it also contained a, at least spiritual, remake of the original Star Wars with elements of Empire, Jedi and the EU mixed within (it even paid off Han Solo as RoTJ should have), which isn't such an ignoble effort in my book (George tried to give us something really different! =). Anybody looking for something original should probably stop looking to Star Wars for it, but I do hope this one doesn't get too wrapped up in the meaning of the Farce (and did they mention the "balance" of it :magni:). Anyway, the honeymoon with the fans seems to be over; this one better really be as good as Empire! :ganishka:
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi
Post by: Walter on April 15, 2017, 05:26:15 PM
I didn't think TFA was a bad movie, but it lacked ambition. The hesitancy in the team to go out on their own was palpable. I reserve hope that this new movie goes in an exciting new direction for the series. But then again, Disney, right?
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi
Post by: Sancho on April 15, 2017, 08:03:23 PM
Anyway, the honeymoon with the fans seems to be over; this one better really be as good as Empire! :ganishka:

After TFA it would be a real miracle if it'll even manage to be as good as any one of the original trilogy.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi
Post by: Skeleton on April 15, 2017, 09:48:49 PM
After TFA it would be a real miracle if it'll even manage to be as good as any one of the original trilogy.

TFA and RotJ are neck-and-neck when it comes to SW quality so as long as TLJ is even slightly better than TFA it'll be better than RotJ. And keep in mind that Rian Johnson, the guy who directed Breaking Bad's Ozymandias and wrote/directed the film Looper, is the captain of this ship. I'll sincerely be surprised if it ends up being worse than TFA.

Anyway, here's a short article where Rian explains/clarifies the meaning behind the "The Last Jedi" name. (https://www.cnet.com/news/who-is-the-star-wars-last-jedi-star-wars-rian-johnson-luke-skywalker-rey/)
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi
Post by: Sancho on April 15, 2017, 10:59:01 PM
TFA and RotJ are neck-and-neck when it comes to SW quality so as long as TLJ is even slightly better than TFA it'll be better than RotJ. And keep in mind that Rian Johnson, the guy who directed Breaking Bad's Ozymandias and wrote/directed the film Looper, is the captain of this ship. I'll sincerely be surprised if it ends up being worse than TFA.

RotJ was an ending that didn't completely meet the expectations born from ESB, but it was nevertheless a worth ending for the trilogy. Scenes like Vader's redemption or every other scene with the Emperor are simply unforgettable. Even if i were to concede that my dislike for TFA is something subjective, i can't just ignore the fact that it didn't contain any scene of the same caliber, that it was basically a remake of episode IV, masked as a sequel, and yet put it at the same level of RotJ.


Quote
Anyway, here's a short article where Rian explains/clarifies the meaning behind the "The Last Jedi" name. (https://www.cnet.com/news/who-is-the-star-wars-last-jedi-star-wars-rian-johnson-luke-skywalker-rey/)

In italian the name of the movie has been translated in plural as "Gli ultimi Jedi"= The Last Jedis, but it seems they went ahead and translated it without even consulting the director first :schierke:
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi
Post by: Griffith on April 16, 2017, 12:01:54 AM
I didn't think TFA was a bad movie

See, it's this hesitant, restrained or faint praise that's even more interesting, because there's a pretty compelling case it's an objectively good (https://www.rottentomatoes.com/m/star_wars_episode_vii_the_force_awakens/) and entertaining as hell (http://www.boxofficemojo.com/movies/?id=starwars7.htm) movie that pulls off the miracle of introducing new characters likable enough that old fans will tolerate the torch being passed on, and then does it. Everyone seems to take this and the high quality entertainment value provided for granted for some reason when Star Wars fans should really know better.

but it lacked ambition. The hesitancy in the team to go out on their own was palpable.

Really, revitalizing Star Wars wasn't ambitious enough an undertaking? I mean, this wasn't just supposed to be a continuation and/or new story, it was a largely new enterprise that had to have an impact almost equivalent to original Star Wars. This is all relative, but it strikes me as sort like needing to hit a home run, calling your shot, actually hitting the home run, and then getting scrutinized by a certain segment of fans sitting cross-armed and saying things like, "Well, it wasn't a bad home run, but it wasn't a grand slam or anything, and I'd have preferred the gritty excitement of an in-the-park home run." Maybe they were just more into Baseball as kids. =) We actually have the luxury of doing this precisely because they were so successful in this endeavor; you don't hear anybody complaining that the prequels main character was "too capable" and the movie TOO MUCH like Star Wars. If these are the big knocks on TFA, it's too much like Star Wars, I'd say they've been pretty successful in their ambitions to resurrect Star Wars. Anyway, I don't think they could have made a new movie on the level of Empire out of the gate with a brand new cast of characters. That would have likely just been a failure that either failed if the story wasn't good enough, or maybe even if it was, perhaps too new and different to be recognizably Star Wars. I don't know, but we'd have thought of something. =)

I reserve hope that this new movie goes in an exciting new direction for the series. But then again, Disney, right?

Is there a specific good direction? Is there another film, or series of films doing something on this scale comparably better we can look to? I wouldn't doubt it, but I just want to know where the goal posts are, because all these hopes and disappointments seem very vague. We'll we just know it when we see it? Here's hoping Last Jedi is it.

After TFA it would be a real miracle if it'll even manage to be as good as any one of the original trilogy.

Isn't that the case because those are among the best films or series of films ever made, literally the favorite of millions of people? I mean, if they could just DO THAT those films wouldn't be so special, so I don't think it's fair to say the next film needs to be like the best one to even rate. Even their creator couldn't recapture the magic or even come close, quite the contrary as we all know. We shouldn't be holding all these movies to the standard of, "Is this as good as if they'd made another Star Wars movie in 1987?" Let alone to the original Star Wars or Empire; you can't just manufacture a transcendent classic after all, you can only try to make something good and hope for the best. Of course, we shouldn't find them all good just for being better than the prequels either, but it seems like we're ignoring a lot of the objective qualities of these new movies to declare them good or bad based on X as it relates to previous Star Wars media.

TFA and RotJ are neck-and-neck when it comes to SW quality so as long as TLJ is even slightly better than TFA it'll be better than RotJ. And keep in mind that Rian Johnson, the guy who directed Breaking Bad's Ozymandias and wrote/directed the film Looper, is the captain of this ship. I'll sincerely be surprised if it ends up being worse than TFA.

I wouldn't be, not because I don't have faith in Rian Johnson, but because it does seem like a more singular vision, which has tremendous positive and negative potential. His great Star Wars movie may not be any of ours. The last one was admittedly trying to be all things to all people, but did a yeomen-like job of it. I don't necessarily agree that TFA is up there with RotJ in quality, but I do think they share similar quality and objectives as bookends. They may not be transcendent like Star Wars and Empire, but they're objectively at the top of the food chain as far as this genre goes. Jedi also definitely benefits from having the original cast's last hurrah together, with one notable exception: TFA's Han Solo beats Jedi's in a landslide.

Anyway, here's a short article where Rian explains/clarifies the meaning behind the "The Last Jedi" name. (https://www.cnet.com/news/who-is-the-star-wars-last-jedi-star-wars-rian-johnson-luke-skywalker-rey/)

Interesting, certainly meshes with the tone and themes of the trailer. Kylo Ren isn't exactly a Sith either, thankfully, and let's not forget that Luke was "no Jedi" for the best parts of the series.

RotJ was an ending that didn't completely meet the expectations born from ESB, but it was nevertheless a worth ending for the trilogy. Scenes like Vader's redemption or every other scene with the Emperor are simply unforgettable. Even if i were to concede that my dislike for TFA is something subjective, i can't just ignore the fact that it didn't contain any scene of the same caliber, that it was basically a remake of episode IV, masked as a sequel, and yet put it at the same level of RotJ.

See, I think it's more a reboot masked as a sequel with a remake cleverly running throughout, and that's an important distinction. The reason TFA gets trashed for it's "plot just being a remake of Star Wars" is the Starkiller Base, but that's like twenty minutes of the movie out of two hours and twenty. The rest of it, and what actually drives it, is the characters meeting, growing, and solidifying their relationships in the backdrop of this eternal good vs evil conflict; so you still have a good two hour adventure movie with fresh, likable, and compelling characters and therefore action without any of that.  As a matter of fact, you could actually cut out all the Starkiller stuff and basically have the exact same movie minus the planets blowing up and that perfunctory Death Star run and everything else would be the same and fine (and more different than this trick might otherwise make you believe). They'd all still be ostensibly looking for Luke, Finn would still escape the First Order, he'd still meet Rey, they'd still flee and meet Han Solo, they'd still meet up with the Resistance, they'd still go rescue Rey, and Rey would still fight Kylo Ren and go find Luke. That's your original movie, folks, and almost none of it was actually about Starkiller Base, for better or worse. Actually, look at all that Skywalker searching, First Order fleeing, friend rescuing and lightsaber dueling a different way and it seems a lot more like a certain Star Wars sequel than the original film. They just threw in a Star Warsy Death Star subplot as the cherry on top, just like RotJ, the plot of which was actually far more Death Star driven but was really about the culmination of everything just as this was really about a new beginning with these characters; so, lay that complaint to rest and enjoy it! :iva:

In italian the name of the movie has been translated in plural as "Gli ultimi Jedi"= The Last Jedis, but it seems they went ahead and translated it without even consulting the director first :schierke:

What do you care? It's going to be so bad anyway. :carcus:
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi
Post by: Skeleton on April 16, 2017, 01:51:13 AM
I wouldn't be, not because I don't have faith in Rian Johnson, but because it does seem like a more singular vision, which has tremendous positive and negative potential. His great Star Wars movie may not be any of ours. The last one was admittedly trying to be all things to all people, but did a yeomen-like job of it.

That's a great point.  I didn't look at it from that angle.  But I choose to have hope.  It's what rebellions are built on, after all.  :carcus:

I don't necessarily agree that TFA is up there with RotJ in quality, but I do think they share similar quality and objectives as bookends. They may not be transcendent like Star Wars and Empire, but they're objectively at the top of the food chain as far as this genre goes. Jedi also definitely benefits from having the original cast's last hurrah together, with one notable exception: TFA's Han Solo beats Jedi's in a landslide.

By SW quality, I mean specifically their quality as Star Wars movies (continuing the SW story or fleshing it out) as opposed to their quality if you look at them as films independent of their overall story/universe.  For example, I think the quality of RotJ as a film is high.  But I think Lucas really took a big steaming dump all over the story that Empire Strikes Back had set up.  TFA had solid quality as a film, but the quality wasn't as good as ROTJ.  However, even though they sometimes danced pretty close to the line with regards to the Force powers, TFA did a far better job at continuing the story, and respecting the set rules of the previous films in its universe, than RotJ.

To me, the two films have two completely different sets of pros and nearly completely different sets of cons.  But if you lined up their pros and cons and compared them they'd be equal to the point that you could make a case for each one being better than the other, and you'd be right in both cases.  Hell, both films even left me wondering the same question ("How the hell did Luke/Rey get his/her lightsaber?"), and they both gave me the exact same answer ("Well, we actually filmed a scene that showed specifically how he/she got it, but we ended up leaving it on the cutting room floor.")

In other words, if I had to rank the films it'd be:

1.  Empire Strikes Back
2.  Star Wars
T3.  Return of the Jedi
T3.  The Force Awakens
5. Star Wars Holiday Special
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi
Post by: Walter on April 16, 2017, 02:09:03 AM
See, it's this hesitant, restrained or faint praise that's even more interesting, because there's a pretty compelling case it's an objectively good (https://www.rottentomatoes.com/m/star_wars_episode_vii_the_force_awakens/) and entertaining as hell (http://www.boxofficemojo.com/movies/?id=starwars7.htm) movie that pulls off the miracle of introducing new characters likable enough that old fans will tolerate the torch being passed on, and then does it. Everyone seems to take this and the high quality entertainment value provided for granted for some reason when Star Wars fans should really know better.

Hang on, I'm being picked on for not liking The Force Awakens enough? :ganishka: Is that so objectionable? It's in line with how you weighed in after the premiere:

Ironically, I feel like they needed to let go of trying to be STAR WARS so much while reinventing it, to the point that the Star Warsy plot felt merely shoved on top the more organic stories of these characters and their potential is never reached because of it (I mean the plot's potential too, which contains what should be some universe shaking events but it's all covered almost as an obligatory aside, because it is).
I just don't think it's good enough on its own merits. It has potential, and if it had focused more on it's new characters in an original plot about the search for Skywalker or something it may have indeed achieved that.

Are things so different now? I mean ... I seem to remember that all three of us (Aaz, me and you) were pretty much on the same page about our reception of The Force Awakens back when we talked about it on the podcast. It was fun! And it felt hollow... The classic Enerton Machine effect of recent Disney films.

The surprise of it being NOT a complete shit show, and ticking the marks on all the ingredients for a successful action/scifi does not alone excite me. That's because The Force Awakens was built on a rigorous scaffolding of A New Hope.  I imagine that was intended to elicit a sense of resonance with fans, but ultimately came across as tracing on top of another success. Once I realized that was the direction of things, it was hard for me to really get into the movie, because only in small moments did it really feel like it was going out on its own.

Quote
Really, revitalizing Star Wars wasn't ambitious enough an undertaking?

No, not really. That was a decision made in a board room. Disney's machinery doesn't require much soul to drive its engines and get people into theaters these days. Pure, calculated competency will do the trick most of the time, which is how I'd categorize the recent Marvel movies ó HUGE SUCCESSES ó and yet somehow I couldn't give two shits about them.

What impressed me about TFA was that in a few instances, it did succeed in lightly tiptoeing out of the shadow of its legacy AND the homogeneous men in suits cracking the whip on J.J. Abrams back. But it still wasn't quite enough for me to cheer. Enjoyable? Certainly! CLASSIC FILM? No, and I think it's a mistake (albeit inevitable) to judge it by those standards at this point. What will the legacy of this new trilogy be? That's up to Disney and its franchise machine.

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If these are the big knocks on TFA, it's too much like Star Wars, I'd say they've been pretty successful in their ambitions to resurrect Star Wars. Anyway, I don't think they could have to made a movie on the level of Empire out of the gate with a brand new cast of characters. That would have likely just been a failure.

I didn't, and don't expect them to trump Empire either. And I'm okay with that. I just want them to tell a great story with great characters. So far we've got one of the two elements.

Quote
Is there a specific good direction? Is there another film, or series of films doing something on this scale comparably better we can look to? I'm sure there is, but I just want to know where the goal posts are, because all these hopes and disappointments seem very vague. We'll we just know it when we see it? Here's hoping Last Jedi is it.

You make it sound as though I'm some kind of inferno of passion either for or against Star Wars. I ain't. As with most things, I just want to see the story go into exciting, surprising places, and do some new, interesting shit. So yeah, pretty vague I guess.

Quote
I wouldn't be, not because I don't have faith in Rian Johnson, but because it does seem like a more singular vision, which has tremendous positive and negative potential. His great Star Wars movie may not be any of ours.

What's funny about Rian Johnson is that more than a decade ago, I was immediately taken by the guy before I even saw his movies. If you've heard or read him talk about films, he's fascinating, has some big ideas. But both Brick and Looper seemed terminally ill-conceived. I wanted to like those movies, but Christ, they were both so juvenile it was tough to stomach. That being said, I still harbor a small flame for the guy, and genuinely hope that he has the vision to make this new movie really GO PLACES.

Quote
The reason it gets trashed for it's "plot just being a remake of Star Wars" is the Starkiller Base, but that's like twenty minutes of the movie out of two hours and twenty.

The parallels are more substantial than just Starkiller Base. Did I somehow miss your point here? I don't think you're blind to all the New Hope parallels.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi
Post by: Griffith on April 16, 2017, 04:07:24 AM
Hang on, I'm being picked on for not liking The Force Awakens enough? :ganishka:

:ganishka:

It is pretty funny when you put it that way, especially since I myself am not exactly endorsing it as an all time great, but I don't mean to pick either. For the record, I think your position and enthusiasm, or lack thereof is reasonable, but I'm genuinely curious about the reticence to fully embrace it, incuding my own, to the point I think even its good points, including some of its more novel and elegant ideas, have become under-appreciated.

What I think is ridiculous are those breathlessly decrying it like it's objectively terrible or somehow the worst thing to happen to Star Wars.

Is that so objectionable? It's in line with how you weighed in after the premiere:

Are things so different now? I mean ... I seem to remember that all three of us (Aaz, me and you) were pretty much on the same page about our reception of The Force Awakens back when we talked about it on the podcast. It was fun! And it felt hollow... The classic Enerton Machine effect of recent Disney films.


I've mentioned I became a convert, not so much because it became a favorite movie or anything but I began appreciating it for what it does well and was attempting instead of what it wasn't. I feel what's good about is dismissed too easilly based on feel. The ANH thing is a particularly weird litmus test rather than just saying, "I didn't like the characters, story, or how they handled Han Solo." Those are reasons not to like it, not because it pays tribute to ANH. I also haven't heard why that's so bad and feel like if it was anything but Star Wars the perception would be different, but you continue...

The surprise of it being NOT a complete shit show, and ticking the marks on all the ingredients for a successful action/scifi does not alone excite me. That's because The Force Awakens was built on a rigorous scaffolding of A New Hope.  I imagine that was intended to elicit a sense of resonance with fans, but ultimately came across as tracing on top of another success. Once I realized that was the direction of things, it was hard for me to really get into the movie, because only in small moments did it really feel like it was going out on its own.

Well, you're obviously prioritizing fresh ground and something really different. But that could be too little like Star Wars for my, obviously more nostalgic, taste. I don't think it's so dependent on A New Hope or substantially like it outside of superficial similarities that people focus on to the exclusion of everything that's not like it.

No, not really.

I sentence you to 200 hours of watching the prequels! No, too cruel, ten minutes or whatever you can take.

That was a decision made in a board room. Disney's machinery doesn't require much soul to drive its engines and get people into theaters these days. Pure, calculated competency will do the trick most of the time, which is how I'd categorize the recent Marvel movies ó HUGE SUCCESSES ó and yet somehow I couldn't give two shits about them.

That sounds like a nerve, tell us how you really feel. =)

What impressed me about TFA was that in a few instances, it did succeed in lightly tiptoeing out of the shadow of its legacy AND the homogeneous men in suits cracking the whip on J.J. Abrams back. But it still wasn't quite enough for me to cheer. Enjoyable? Certainly! CLASSIC FILM? No, and I think it's a mistake (albeit inevitable) to judge it by those standards at this point. What will the legacy of this new trilogy be? That's up to Disney and its franchise machine.

Well, that seems to inform your perception. I'm pretty sure studio suits decided to make The Empire Strikes Back in a boardroom at some point too, doesn't mean that Lucas, Kershner, Kasdan and Kurtz weren't making the film. This movie was also made by individual creative people that love Star Wars: J.J. Abrams, Lawrence Kasdan, Michael Arndt, and they made creative and artistic choices here we can disagree about, but I don't think there's much to indicate it was just written in a memo or that it's illegitimate because it was really made by THE MAN or something.

Not Rogue One though; totally focus-grouped and artificially constructed in an editing bay from raw Star Wars fan service footage. :carcus:

I didn't, and don't expect them to trump Empire either. And I'm okay with that. I just want them to tell a great story with great characters. So far we've got one of the two elements.

I just think the way they covered so much old and new ground while paying tribute to the original film was an impressive feat. That's really what turned it around for me. I didn't like the Death Star redux part deux any more than you, and could do without it, but when I view it in the larger context of how it pays tribute to one of the most significant films ever, not just as one Star Wars movie referencing another, as a film fan I really like that they did that. To me that was better, more worthwhile, and a greater degree of difficulty for a Star Wars revival than any random new plot they could've come up with. You're seeing this as a cheap and lazy calculation by Disney and its associates, but I think it was a labor of love by the filmmakers that ultimately might have hurt the movie, and certainly it's reputation in these media-savvy and cynical times.

You make it sound as though I'm some kind of inferno of passion either for or against Star Wars. I ain't.

I didn't mean to, more just reluctant, but I'm seeing that passion about Disney/Studio films though, which isn't necessarily a bad thing. I just don't think it's an outlook that meshes well with Star Wars past (except the original) or present.

As with most things, I just want to see the story go into exciting, surprising places, and do some new, interesting shit. So yeah, pretty vague I guess.

I think it did with it's characters and the reinvention of some of the series' tropes, but tropes nonetheless. I'm not sure how far out it could go without reestablishing that world 30+ years later in the "first act." I wouldn't want it to be too unlike Star Wars without a transition either, it's already different enough by default.

What's funny about Rian Johnson is that more than a decade ago, I was immediately taken by the guy before I even saw his movies. If you've heard or read him talk about films, he's fascinating, has some big ideas. But both Brick and Looper seemed terminally ill-conceived. I wanted to like those movies, but Christ, they were both so juvenile it was tough to stomach. That being said, I still harbor a small flame for the guy, and genuinely hope that he has the vision to make this new movie really GO PLACES.

Yeah... I'm hoping this is his moment to shine because while I like him and his work, especially his directing on Breaking Bad, his writing hasn't necessarily screamed, "This is the guy to do Star Wars!" Then again, Star Wars is full of big AND juvenile ideas, so here's hoping. BTW, doesn't the fact that they're letting him do this kind of disprove your Anti-Mouse House mantra in this instance? Selecting, supporting, and letting creative people do the creating is about the best thing a studio can do from that point of view.

The parallels are more substantial than just Starkiller Base. Did I somehow miss your point here? I don't think you're blind to all the New Hope parallels.

I'm not, but that one is the most substantial, and otherwise those parallels are fine and good, brilliant even how they're weaved throughout or reinvented, and don't really matter to the rest of the plot, which most definitely isn't just the skeleton of A New Hope. Like I said, people have it backward, they managed to weave A New Hope through their new plot, not the other way around. Someone correct me if im wrong, but I think the way the film was purportedly written supports this as the Starkiller stuff that cements it was added relatively late. But, it so quickly became the conventional wisdom, repeated ad nauseam, that nobody even questions it (and cites every tenuous connection as proof, ignoring the rest). It's a structurally very different and modern movie for better or worse, and having heavy allusions doesn't make it a remake (even if there's a desert and a detention center) or render the rest of the plot, which I demonstrated actually has little to do with it, moot. Now one can say it was a mistake that distracted from and overshadowed the plot, or it was weak plot, and/or they didn't like the characters or what happened (note: nobody actually says t =), but I don't buy the whole, "It's just like the first Star Wars and that's lazy and bad." Just as you're skeptical that the Disney workshop will produce anything of original artistic story value I'm skeptical of that conventional wisdom so especially prevalent online. Of course, that could also be coloring my perception.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi
Post by: Skeleton on April 16, 2017, 05:28:05 AM
Not Rogue One though; totally focus-grouped and artificially constructed in an editing bay from raw Star Wars fan service footage. =)

If The Force Awakens is any indication, I look forward to teaming up with you in two years to defend Rogue One when Walter criticizes it.  :carcus:

The thing I find interesting about the "The Force Awakens is a A New Hope clone" is that, even if it were true (objectively it ain't), it might be the most Star Wars thing Disney could do (and a negative that Disney didn't do it).

Think of the plot of ANH:  There's a boy from Tatooine who is unknowingly gifted with the Force (Luke).  He's found by a wizened Jedi (Obi-Wan) who takes him off-world to complete a quest (deliver the Death Star plans to the Rebels).  They're attacked by the bad guys just as they're making their escape (stormtroopers).  Through the course of the film there's a rescue of a female royal member (Princess Leia), the wizened Jedi is killed by a member of the Sith (Darth Vader kills Obi-Wan), and the Tatooine boy, with the help of R2-D2 and the Force, ends/wins the final battle by destroying a gigantic enemy ship (Death Star) that threatens the good guys the royal member is associated with (Rebels).  The movie ends with the good guys having a grand ceremony and celebration presided over by the royal member they rescued.

Now think of the plot of The Phantom Menace:  There's a boy from Tatooine who is unknowingly gifted with the Force (Anakin).  He's found by a wizened Jedi (Qui-Gon Jinn) who takes him off-world to complete a quest (deliver Amidala to the Senate).  They're attacked by the bad guys just as they're making their escape (Darth Maul).  Through the course of the film there's a rescue of a female royal member (Queen Amidala), the wizened Jedi is killed by a member of the Sith (Darth Maul kills Qui-Gon), and the Tatooine boy, with the help of R2-D2 and the Force, ends/wins the final battle by destroying a gigantic enemy ship (droid control ship) that threatens the good guys the royal member is associated with (Naboo).  The movie ends with the good guys having a grand ceremony and celebration presided over by the royal member they rescued.

See?  With the exception of superficial differences and the rearranging of events, it's Star Wars tradition to start every trilogy with the exact same movie.  So the fact that Disney didn't just copy A New Hope means The Force Awakens really is a terrible Star Wars film, and the TFA haters are right.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi
Post by: Aazealh on April 16, 2017, 07:05:44 AM
See, it's this hesitant, restrained or faint praise that's even more interesting, because there's a pretty compelling case it's an objectively good (https://www.rottentomatoes.com/m/star_wars_episode_vii_the_force_awakens/) and entertaining as hell (http://www.boxofficemojo.com/movies/?id=starwars7.htm) movie that pulls off the miracle of introducing new characters likable enough that old fans will tolerate the torch being passed on, and then does it. Everyone seems to take this and the high quality entertainment value provided for granted for some reason when Star Wars fans should really know better.

Good in what sense? It's got some good parts, like whoever plays the bad guy (name already forgotten) and most of the scenes he stars in, the chemistry between Rey and Finn, and uhhhh... that's it? Other than that it's a reboot/remake of the original movie, but less good in every way. What drove its success was nostalgia and brand power, not the fact it's an amazing movie in and of itself.

Oh and Rogue One was messy and boring. Totally forgettable. :casca:
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi
Post by: Griffith on April 16, 2017, 08:17:12 AM
Good in what sense? It's got some good parts, like whoever plays the bad guy (name already forgotten) and most of the scenes he stars in, the chemistry between Rey and Finn, and uhhhh... that's it?

Good main characters, chemistry, and a good villain in a big budget action adventure spectacle with a slick, top notch production that spares no expense; movies have been considered good with much less going for them. That's it, it's just good, we can say so out loud without being guarded ,that's my point.

Other than that it's a reboot/remake of the original movie, but less good in every way.

It's definitely a reboot in multiple ways, but scene by scene the circumstances, characterization, motivations, events, set pieces etc. are really not like a remake of ANH; it's more like a remix if anything, with certain touchstone scene highlighted, but that does not a re make. It just bugs me that this gets treated as gospel because... nobody cares about the plot! That's the real problem. Just say the plot isn't interesting enough to be characterized as more than a light ANH knock off. =)

Anyway, being less good than Star Wars isn't a problem either, but this is the whole thing in a nutshell, the good traits are dismissed for some vaguely negative assertion that its too much like Star Wars (!), and this is bad (?), to be good Star Wars.

What drove its success was nostalgia and brand power, not the fact it's an amazing movie in and of itself.

It's good enough to capitalize on those advantages to drive that success. Those advantages couldn't redeem the prequels because they're so plainly bad; so they made money but nobody would call them a success like TFA. I just think it's fair to call a spade a spade both ways. If we can bash everything for their shortcomings we can acknowledge and praise this movie's good qualities without shame.

Oh and Rogue One was messy and boring. Totally forgettable. :casca:

Yeah... I don't think I'll come around on that one.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi
Post by: Skeleton on April 16, 2017, 09:10:52 AM
Oh and Rogue One was messy and boring. Totally forgettable. :casca:

Yeah... I don't think I'll come around on that one.

You two say that now, but, like Palpatine did to Anakin, I'll start an inappropriate relationship with you and over time corrupt your way of thinking. Two years from now, you'll be defending Rogue One and wondering how the hell you got there.

(http://m.memegen.com/1y12ue.jpg)
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi
Post by: Aazealh on April 16, 2017, 09:21:38 AM
Good main characters, chemistry, and a good villain in a big budget action adventure spectacle with a slick, top notch production that spares no expense; movies have been considered good with much less going for them. That's it, it's just good, we can say so out loud without being guarded ,that's my point.

Movies have been "considered good" while they absolutely sucked. It all depends on who's considering. If you want my opinion, then I think this movie has some good stuff in it, but I don't think it's firmly good as a whole. And that's because the good stuff is weighed down by the bad one. I think it's alright if you like Star Wars, but that's about it. I'd put it on the same level as Avengers 2.

It's definitely a reboot in multiple ways, but scene by scene the circumstances, characterization, motivations, events, set pieces etc. are really not like a remake of ANH; it's more like a remix if anything, with certain touchstone scene highlighted, but that does not a re make. It just bugs me that this gets treated as gospel because... nobody cares about the plot! That's the real problem. Just say the plot isn't interesting enough to be characterized as more than a light ANH knock off. =)

Remix/reboot/remake, whatever. It's derivative and not in a good way as far as I'm concerned. And that's because I personally care about the plot, and I think the plot sucks. I think STARKILLER BASE is a fucking joke, and I find the idea of a Death Star XTREEM EDITION almost insulting. The mysterious evil leader looks like a giant from RE4, the Han Solo ship escape scene is corny as hell, the political stuff is paper-thin, the resistance's struggle has zero gravitas to it, some side characters take up screen time uselessly, Leia can't articulate, Rey's prowess in all things lacks subtlety, etc. Like I said, there's some parts I like, but that doesn't erase the parts I don't like. I think the movie could have been vastly improved by having better writing and tighter editing.

Anyway, being less good than Star Wars isn't a problem either, but this is the whole thing in a nutshell, the good traits are dismissed for some vaguely negative assertion that its too much like Star Wars (!), and this is bad (?), to be good Star Wars.

Sounds to me like you're just saying the bad parts, which are non-trivial, should be dismissed because it's the Star Wars franchise. :iva:

f we can bash everything for their shortcomings we can acknowledge and praise this movie's good qualities without shame.

I have no shame saying I liked the parts I did. I just don't think they overwhelmingly outweigh the parts I didn't like.
To be honest this is the first time I think back on this movie since having watched it, which is in itself revelatory of its (lack of) impact on me.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi
Post by: Sweval on April 16, 2017, 07:33:15 PM
The first movies I remember watching are the original Star Wars trilogy so the franchise as a whole has a really special place in my heart as it does for others. I have a few problems with the Force Awakens, mainly its lack of actual characters but I did enjoy the movie as a whole. Rogue One kind of gave me hope for how Disney will be handling Star Wars, but the teaser killed most of that. The visual style and content just didn't feel Star Wars to me. There's a certain feeling I've come to expect with Star Wars, it's why anytime I watch A New Hope I get this stupid smile on my face or I'm still mystified by Yoda. This trailer just came across as standard Sci-Fi/Action Blockbuster, I'm very excited for more Luke Skywalker, and who wouldn't be he's one of the most iconic film characters of all time. However, as much as I complain I know for a fact I will see it in theaters at least twice.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi
Post by: Skeleton on April 17, 2017, 12:58:04 AM
There's a certain feeling I've come to expect with Star Wars, it's why anytime I watch A New Hope I get this stupid smile on my face or I'm still mystified by Yoda.

I think that's where most SW fans and I part ways, especially when it comes to the Disney era movies. To me, the most important aspects of Star Wars films are the story, how it fits into the greater canon universe, and whether or not it honors said universe. Take this trailer as an example. I agree completely that it doesn't feel like the OT SW films. (Like probably most SW fans, that was the first thing I noticed.) But when the trailer ended, my dominating thought was," What did she mean when she said she could see the light, darkness, and balance? If that's literal, does it fit in with what we know of the Force?  If it doesn't, I hope they're just using a visualization technique." I'm all about the story and ideas. The fact it didn't feel OT Star Wars-y was just a passing observation to me.

Of course, I say that now, but if this film ends up having the same feel as the prequel trilogy then the issue will suddenly become very important to me. :ganishka:

Going back to the trailer, one potential direction the story could take is that those (I'm assuming Jedi) ancient texts reveal the original Jedi religion/philosophy, showing how corrupt/misguided the Jedi order had become by the time of the prequel trilogy (which was off-handedly/subtly mentioned twice in the PT by Yoda). I really like this idea for two reasons:

1) It expands upon one of the few fascinating (to me) and overlooked aspects of the PT trilogy.

2) It gives them an excuse to correct what I think is Lucas' RotJ big mistake. Lucas wanted Luke to be an old school Jedi just like Obi-Wan and Yoda, but the story laid out by ESB didn't naturally flow there. So he forced the issue with RotJ's Yoda scene, soft retconning ESB's story to allow it.

I fully accept the canon, Luke is a Jedi, but I think a more natural flow would've been to have Luke become a new breed of Force user, one that's close to being like the Jedi (given Luke's incomplete, informal Jedi training) and fights for the same cause but perhaps skirts closer to the dark side than the Jedi would (like Luke did early in RotJ). In other words, if the Jedi are like the North Vietnamese Army (a big, well-regulated, official/state-sponsered organization) then Luke and his future school/order could have been the Viet Cong. Guerilla Jedi.

With those ancient Jedi tomes, they could essentially redefine what it means to be a really real Jedi (without retconning) to be closer to that.

But that's just one possibility.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi
Post by: Griffith on April 17, 2017, 06:52:38 AM
Two years from now, you'll be defending Rogue One and wondering how the hell you got there.

Nah, I did hate TFA upon first viewing, I nitpicked every moment and physically rejected it like a foreign body. I had the opportunity to watch it again in a completely different setting shortly thereafter though, with all those expectations gone, and was able to just sit back and enjoy it and everything it did right by Star Wars, which was quite a lot.

I did not have this experience after multiple viewings of Rogue One, which had some neat stuff in it, but not the same stakes, purpose, or overall quality as TFA, which I think doubled as a better tribute to the original Star Wars too.

Movies have been "considered good" while they absolutely sucked. It all depends on who's considering. If you want my opinion, then I think this movie has some good stuff in it, but I don't think it's firmly good as a whole. And that's because the good stuff is weighed down by the bad one. I think it's alright if you like Star Wars, but that's about it. I'd put it on the same level as Avengers 2.

Sure lots of sucky movies are hits, but I'm talking about this movie and it didn't suck and my point is acting like it does despite its strengths, especially for showing love to its source, is perplexing to me. As you say it depends on your criteria, but it was probably one of the best films of its kind produced that year, and probably better than alright if one DOESN'T care about Star Wars but just judges it as a movie-going experience. Basically, it could stand on its own as an action adventure movie but it obviously has plenty of "Star Wars" shit in it that clouds our judgement (to be continued...). So, it's just weird to me when it's cited by some fans as the reason the next Star Wars is doomed.

Remix/reboot/remake, whatever. It's derivative and not in a good way as far as I'm concerned. And that's because I personally care about the plot, and I think the plot sucks. I think STARKILLER BASE is a fucking joke, and I find the idea of a Death Star XTREEM EDITION almost insulting. The mysterious evil leader looks like a giant from RE4, the Han Solo ship escape scene is corny as hell, the political stuff is paper-thin, the resistance's struggle has zero gravitas to it, some side characters take up screen time uselessly, Leia can't articulate, Rey's prowess in all things lacks subtlety, etc. Like I said, there's some parts I like, but that doesn't erase the parts I don't like. I think the movie could have been vastly improved by having better writing and tighter editing.

Well, what couldn't? =) Though I think it's incredibly tight and well-paced for all the masters they're serving and the sheer amount of shit they shove in it, it takes time to have a moment when it needs to but really moves briskly otherwise (Avengers 2 is a good counter-example). The worst parts are indeed Death Star 3 and Snoke (the name alone), and we could cherry pick good or bad parts all day (though I do think the good overwhelmingly outweighs the bad if you want to pro/con the whole movie with me!? =), but I think a lot of the weak points are so because they're Star Wars window dressing and aren't as important as the characters, their arcs, and the groundwork laid while delivering a rousing return to form (YMMV). That's the emotional core of the movie and why it ultimately works, and you don't need a brilliant plot to tell a good story that way, as the original Star Wars films, including Empire's extended chase scene/training montage plot, can attest.

Sounds to me like you're just saying the bad parts, which are non-trivial, should be dismissed because it's the Star Wars franchise. :iva:

That's the heart of the matter to me; how we're putting our finger on the scale one way or another. It's too Star Wars or not enough, lives up to it or doesn't, is somehow disqualified, unworthy or isn't. Honestly, I wouldn't have ever seen this movie or cared about space teens again if it wasn't "Star Wars," but I also wouldn't be over-scrutinizing it either, and I think that's true of many of us. It's almost impossible to separate really, which is why I'm parsing it from multiple angles, from what's purely on screen, to the whole aim of the production.

I have no shame saying I liked the parts I did. I just don't think they overwhelmingly outweigh the parts I didn't like. To be honest this is the first time I think back on this movie since having watched it, which is in itself revelatory of its (lack of) impact on me.

Well, what movies have such an impact on you these days? Not many for me. It's the same quandary; is it the movie's fault, or us? :azan:<-That's us.

Anyway, to put a bow on this, I think it was a good movie on it's own merits, but how it paid tribute to Star Wars (1977) within that framework was in fact great to moi, but I can understand seeing that the opposite way... from a certain point of view. :carcus:

The first movies I remember watching are the original Star Wars trilogy so the franchise as a whole has a really special place in my heart as it does for others. I have a few problems with the Force Awakens, mainly its lack of actual characters but I did enjoy the movie as a whole. Rogue One kind of gave me hope for how Disney will be handling Star Wars, but the teaser killed most of that. The visual style and content just didn't feel Star Wars to me. There's a certain feeling I've come to expect with Star Wars, it's why anytime I watch A New Hope I get this stupid smile on my face or I'm still mystified by Yoda. This trailer just came across as standard Sci-Fi/Action Blockbuster, I'm very excited for more Luke Skywalker, and who wouldn't be he's one of the most iconic film characters of all time.

This is what I'm talking about. That sounds all over the map to me, like I agree about that "certain feeling," but largely disagree with your positions on what does and doesn't cut it in the new movies. I'm worried about Luke though, seems like they've turned him into an asshole, which explains his sitting everything out, but his unyielding optimism, heroism, and devotion to his friends were pretty defining character traits to say the least. I don't need to see Rey showing him how to get his groove back or something in a rote self-redemptive arc he didn't need just to get back to where he was 30 years before (and then they kill him off =). Oh no, she's already a better Jedi and hero than Luke! :ganishka:

Going back to the trailer, one potential direction the story could take is that those (I'm assuming Jedi) ancient texts reveal the original Jedi religion/philosophy, showing how corrupt/misguided the Jedi order had become by the time of the prequel trilogy (which was off-handedly/subtly mentioned twice in the PT by Yoda).
Quote
It gives them an excuse to correct what I think is Lucas' RotJ big mistake. Lucas wanted Luke to be an old school Jedi just like Obi-Wan and Yoda, but the story laid out by ESB didn't naturally flow there. So he forced the issue with RotJ's Yoda scene, soft retconning ESB's story to allow it.

I fully accept the canon, Luke is a Jedi, but I think a more natural flow would've been to have Luke become a new breed of Force user, one that's close to being like the Jedi (given Luke's incomplete, informal Jedi training) and fights for the same cause but perhaps skirts closer to the dark side than the Jedi would (like Luke did early in RotJ).

The Jedi started out and largely were that way in the OT, with Vader's and Obi-Wan's "religion" being referred to interchangeably. Jedi could have basically just been a synonym for a "force user," with the distinction being between generic light and dark (remember the term Dark Jedi? =). All the super rigid Jedi vs. Sith crap came later, so you're right that it was corrupted, in the script of not in the story. =)

There's a lot of hairsplitting there though, with regards to "retcons" from one sequel to the next. I just don't think it was that complicated until Lucas made it so when he had to depict the Jedi order in the prequels and make up a bunch of specifics that didn't even mesh all that well with what's in the OT (like a lot of the PT). Anyway, it seems that's the direction they're taking Rey, at least I hope so rather than her being the new Chosen One or some shit (BTW, that tome looks like an old Lucas idea...).
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi
Post by: Skeleton on April 18, 2017, 01:15:06 AM
The Jedi started out and largely were that way in the OT, with Vader's and Obi-Wan's "religion" being referred to interchangeably. Jedi could have basically just been a synonym for a "force user," with the distinction being between generic light and dark (remember the term Dark Jedi? =). All the super rigid Jedi vs. Sith crap came later, so you're right that it was corrupted, in the script of not in the story. =)

I don't entirely agree with you here.  You're right that the lines separating the groups were far blurrier with the original trilogy (especially in ANH where they're almost non-existent, where the "religion" comments were made).  But Yoda, in Empire Strikes Back, firmly establishes that Jedi are Force-users who use the light side of the force ("A Jedi uses the Force for knowledge and defense, never for attack").  By definition, a dark side-using/dark Jedi is an oxymoron. 

Even in earlier drafts of A New Hope (and the A New Hope novelization) Vader is referred to as the "Dark Lord of the Sith"/"Sith Lord" with "Sith" remaining undefined (and left out of the movies) until Lucas later fleshed it out and put it in The Phantom Menace.  Star Wars fans knew the term for a dark side-using Force wielder (of whatever group Vader was a part of), but only Lucas knew that's what Sith meant.  That's probably the reason why the Expanded Universe writers preferred the clumsy term "dark Jedi" (and it's simple-minded cousin "grey Jedi").

I don't even really care that Luke became a Jedi.  What bothers me (in the slightest sense of the word) is that Lucas reached that conclusion unnaturally just because he wanted the story to go there.  My objectively awesome idea of having Luke be the beginning of a new order is just wishful thinking.  I don't hold it against Lucas for not doing it.  It's just an example of how the story could've flowed more naturally.

I have the same gripe with the prequel trilogy:  Lucas had a specific direction he wanted to take Anakin in since literally the late 70s or early 80s.  He was doing just that with The Phantom Menace and Attack of the Clones, but sometime between Attack of the Clones and Revenge of the Sith he decided to make Anakin/Vader a tragic character so he made Anakin's character development take a hard left right into a brick wall.

Quote
There's a lot of hairsplitting there though, with regards to "retcons" from one sequel to the next. I just don't think it was that complicated until Lucas made it so when he had to depict the Jedi order in the prequels and make up a bunch of specifics that didn't even mesh all that well with what's in the OT (like a lot of the PT). Anyway, it seems that's the direction they're taking Rey, at least I hope so rather than her being the new Chosen One or some shit (BTW, that tome looks like an old Lucas idea...).

So you've been assaulted by heard of the objectively shitty "Rey is the reincarnated Chosen One" theory too, eh?  :ganishka:

For the record, my objection to how Lucas handled Luke in RotJ stems from what's taught in the OT and interviews/explanations Lucas gave during that time period.  If I use a PT example, I'm doing so from a canon story standpoint only.  I'm not saying what Lucas did in the 80s is wrong because it was different from what we see in the 2000s.

Here's a fun, quick story about the PT:  A year or two ago one of the members here (Johnstantine, I think?) was trying to convince you guys to give The Clone Wars a shot.  I wanted to give it a gentleman's try, but I couldn't get myself to do it because I had a very negative visceral reaction to the prequel trilogy and anything related to it.  Realizing I had this reaction to the material bothered me.  So I decided to write down everything I didn't like about the trilogy, ignoring the obvious things that I could tolerate (terrible acting, script, etc).  Looking at my list I realized the one thing that bothered me the most was that I believed the prequel movies shit all over the backstory that the original trilogy had established.  So, being a man of no life, I watched the original trilogy, writing down every single reference to what happened before A New Hope.  Afterwards I removed everything that was false within the original trilogy (Obi-Wan saying Vader killed Luke's father, for example).  I then watched the prequel trilogy to see if it contradicted what the OT had said.

My findings?  With the exception of one or two very minor differences (Leia says she knew her and Luke's mom before she died, PT has her die during childbirth*), the two lined up perfectly.  The problem?  The prequel trilogy technically sticks to the story established by the OT, but it's a far crappier version than what the OT leads you to believe.  In ANH, Obi-Wan says Luke's father was a great pilot.  That made me think Vader was originally a badass fighter pilot.  In the PT, he's a great pilot in the sense that he's great at piloting podracers and "lucked" into single-handedly destroying a droid control ship before becoming a decent (for a Jedi) fighter pilot.  In ESB, Obi-Wan's Force ghost says Yoda was his teacher.  That made me think Yoda taught Obi-Wan the way Obi-Wan was teaching Luke.  In the PT, Obi-Wan is the student of Jinn, but Yoda is shown a couple of times teaching the younglings.  Since Obi-Wan was a youngling at some point, Yoda did teach him.  See what I mean?  The PT technically stuck to the story but in the shittiest, most unenjoyable way possible.

*That also ties into the Anakin left turn gripe I have.  Before Lucas decided to turn Anakin into a tragic figure while writing Revenge of the Sith, he didn't have Anakin killing Luke and Leia's mom.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi
Post by: Johnstantine on April 18, 2017, 12:28:02 PM
Here's a fun, quick story about the PT:  A year or two ago one of the members here (Johnstantine, I think?) was trying to convince you guys to give The Clone Wars a shot.  I wanted to give it a gentleman's try, but I couldn't get myself to do it because I had a very negative visceral reaction to the prequel trilogy and anything related to it. 

I still can't recommend Clone Wars enough. It's amazing.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi
Post by: Griffith on April 18, 2017, 05:54:48 PM
Now we're talkin' STAAAARR WAAARS! (This is what I get for ranting at Wally and Aaz about it =)

I don't entirely agree with you here.  You're right that the lines separating the groups were far blurrier with the original trilogy (especially in ANH where they're almost non-existent, where the "religion" comments were made).  But Yoda, in Empire Strikes Back, firmly establishes that Jedi are Force-users who use the light side of the force ("A Jedi uses the Force for knowledge and defense, never for attack").  By definition, a dark side-using/dark Jedi is an oxymoron.

That's a good point, but as you say the lines were blurry and a specific alternative wasn't defined or given at all, so at the time that was basically just Yoda's definition of what a real Jedi should be or how they should act. Previously Obi-Wan even refers to Vader as a young Jedi (even though that's his Sith Lord name! =), just gone bad, like a crooked cop is still technically a cop, just gone rogue or acting outside the rules; abusing their power. So, again, it wasn't what it would later become with the whole Jedi/Sith binary, which became tiresome to me very quickly. So, if they're basically going to undo that with Kylo Ren and Rey being more force users in relative positions on a spectrum of light and dark and/or essentially redefine what a Jedi is, with Rey in particular or even Luke before her, fine by me. The capital J Jedi are dead, long live "the jedi."

I have the same gripe with the prequel trilogy:  Lucas had a specific direction he wanted to take Anakin in since literally the late 70s or early 80s.  He was doing just that with The Phantom Menace and Attack of the Clones, but sometime between Attack of the Clones and Revenge of the Sith he decided to make Anakin/Vader a tragic character so he made Anakin's character development take a hard left right into a brick wall.
*That also ties into the Anakin left turn gripe I have.  Before Lucas decided to turn Anakin into a tragic figure while writing Revenge of the Sith, he didn't have Anakin killing Luke and Leia's mom.
The PT technically stuck to the story but in the shittiest, most unenjoyable way possible.

What's interesting about all this is I feel like that "left turn" was another one of those course corrections to try and make the PT fit with the OT, however shitty and disjointed, which is why the portrayal of Anakin in the first two prequels felt so wrong from the start. OT Vader/Anakin WAS a tragic and romantic figure, an allegedly great man everyone admired but that fell, but subsequently expressed resentment and regret, and was revealed to be conflicted or tortured about it before being redeemed.

Anakin in the prequels is more a study in what Lucas described as a selfish person becoming an evil one, or the true origin of an evil person and what they really are. I'd almost give Lucas credit for this boldness, "fuck Darth Vader" if everything wasn't so disjointed. Otherwise he'd be admirable for not aggrandizing Vader but instead rejecting that conventional wisdom and saying, no, Vader's not a badass, he's a bad human being, he was a pathetically selfish person that turned to evil and that's why he ended up the way he did. Anakin was always a bad guy, just not a Bad Guy yet, but still always a petulant pissbaby you wouldn't even want to be in the same room with, let alone admire. Which makes the unnecessarily forced "left turn," where it's like Palpatine hypnotizes him or something, doubly strange, because there's literally two different versions of the same story happening at once, either of which would work apart, but both together create an awful case of cognitive dissonance coming from both sides of the series. This also creates the mental switch in one's view of the saga overall where Vader/Anakin goes from being the baddest dude in the galaxy, a man whose decision the world literally turned on, to a total loser and a patsy.

Before that, I think it was natural to extrapolate Luke's arc, and his temptation and flirtations with the dark side, as a parallel to Anakin's, with the alternative outcome that he does turn, but was worth redeeming because ultimately he wasn't so different from Luke (and his redemption validated Luke and vice versa, instead of Luke just saving his loser dad). It turned out to be much more straightforward though, Luke didn't turn to the dark side because he was ever and always a good and loyal person, Anakin never was.

Except in Clone Wars apparently. =)

So you've been assaulted by heard of the objectively shitty "Rey is the reincarnated Chosen One" theory too, eh?  :ganishka:

You mean his CLONE'S CHILD with Jyn Erso!? :magni: Well, yeah, DUH, I thought the foreshadowing in TFA was OBVIOUS! Otherwise, she's clearly the product of the combined DNA of Obi-Wan, Luke and Anakin delivered through Han's penis unto the then fertilized eggs of Princess Leia (given Rey's natural abilities, that would make the most sense actually =).

We joke, but when you look at some of the Anakin/Vader shit they were really considering for TFA, to the point of doing the concept art for it, nothing would surprise me. I know it's not popular with the "cool" Star Wars fans, but just make her Luke's daughter, please. We've already got Rogue One for the anti-Skywalker perverts that want the point of Star Wars to be its minutia.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi
Post by: Johnstantine on April 18, 2017, 06:39:12 PM
Except in Clone Wars apparently. =)

Griff, you're making me rage so hard right now  :ganishka:

As I've said before, Anakin in the Clone Wars is what he should have always been. The movies ruined his character on screen 100%, but CW redeems him. It actually has the time to show a natural progression to the dark side (losing friends, getting fed up with the Jedi order, etc). It makes sense when watching it over five seasons, as opposed to three movies. It's why he's probably my favorite character in the entire SW universe, movies and all.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi
Post by: Skeleton on April 19, 2017, 09:59:06 AM
I still can't recommend Clone Wars enough. It's amazing.

I second Johnstantine.  The Clone Wars had the unenviable task of trying to polish the PT turd, and I think it did a great job of it.  There were some episodes I loved, some I liked, and some I didn't like.  But overall I enjoyed and recommend it.  It's a shame it was cancelled because I felt like the last season-and-a-half was when the show really found its stride.

Now we're talkin' STAAAARR WAAARS! (This is what I get for ranting at Wally and Aaz about it =)

Come on now.  Admit it.  This is more fun than trying to convince those scruffy-looking nerf herders that TFA isn't the The Room of big budget films.  :carcus:

That's a good point, but as you say the lines were blurry and a specific alternative wasn't defined or given at all, so at the time that was basically just Yoda's definition of what a real Jedi should be or how they should act. Previously Obi-Wan even refers to Vader as a young Jedi (even though that's his Sith Lord name! =), just gone bad, like a crooked cop is still technically a cop, just gone rogue or acting outside the rules; abusing their power.

I find your lack of faith disturbing.

From RotJ:

Quote
Yoda: Remember, a Jedi's strength flows from the Force. But beware. Anger, fear, aggression. The dark side are they. Once you start down the dark path, forever will it dominate your destiny. Luke... Luke... do not... do not underestimate the powers of the Emperor or suffer your father's fate you will. Luke, when gone am I... the last of the Jedi will you be. Luke, the Force runs strong in your family. Pass on what you have learned, Luke. There is... another... Sky... walker.

Quote
Luke: Ben! Why didn't you tell me? You told me that Darth Vader betrayed and murdered my father.
Obi-Wan: Your father... was seduced by the Dark Side of the Force. He ceased to be the Jedi Anakin Skywalker and "became" Darth Vader. When that happened, the good man who was your father was destroyed. So, what I told you was true... from a certain point of view.
Luke: A certain point of view?
Obi-Wan: Luke, you're going to find that many of the truths we cling to depend greatly on our own point of view. Anakin was a good friend. When I first met him, your father was already a great pilot. But I was amazed how strongly the Force was with him. I took it upon myself to train him as a Jedi. I thought that I could instruct him just as well as Yoda. I was wrong.
Luke: There is still good in him.
Obi-Wan: He's more machine now than man. Twisted and evil.
Luke: I can't do it, Ben.
Obi-Wan: You cannot escape your destiny. You must face Darth Vader again.
Luke: I can't kill my own father.
Obi-Wan: Then the Emperor has already won. You were our only hope.
Luke: Yoda spoke of another.
Obi-Wan: The other he spoke of is your twin sister.
Luke: But I have no sister.
Obi-Wan: Hmm. To protect you both from the Emperor, you were hidden from your father when you were born. The Emperor knew, as I did, if Anakin were to have any offspring, they would be a threat to him. That is the reason why your sister remains safely anonymous.
Luke: Leia! Leia is my sister.
Obi-Wan: Your insight serves you well. Bury your feelings deep down, Luke. They do you credit, but they could be made to serve the Emperor.

Quote
Luke: Never. I'll never turn to the Dark Side. You've failed, your highness. I am a Jedi, like my father before me.
The Emperor: So be it... Jedi!

One more RotJ quote just as a middle finger to the PT:

Quote
Princess Leia:  Luke, what's wrong?
Luke: Leia, do you remember your mother? Your real mother?
Princess Leia: Just a little bit. She died when I was very young.
Luke: What do you remember?
Princess Leia: Just... images really. Feelings.
Luke: Tell me.
Princess Leia: She was... very beautiful. Kind, but sad. Why are you asking me this?
Luke: I have no memory of my mother. I never knew her.

Leia, you lying son of a bitch.  No wonder Luke never trained you to become a Jedi!

So, again, it wasn't what it would later become with the whole Jedi/Sith binary, which became tiresome to me very quickly. So, if they're basically going to undo that with Kylo Ren and Rey being more force users in relative positions on a spectrum of light and dark and/or essentially redefine what a Jedi is, with Rey in particular or even Luke before her, fine by me. The capital J Jedi are dead, long live "the jedi."

To me though it was never binary.  I never thought all light side users were Jedi and all dark side users were Sith.  There was absolutely no proof of this until The Clone Wars (and later TFA as far as the actual movies are concerned), but I always just assumed the Jedi (and the Sith once TPM came out) were like schools of philosophy, political parties, or religious sects.  In other words, the Jedi/Sith were the dominant groups, but you could have multiple dark side groups, multiple light side groups, etc. 

But I admit I also assumed the Empire was pretty old, being greatly disappointed when it turned out that Palpatine had only ruled for ~19 years.  So my assumptions miss more than they hit.  :ganishka:

What's interesting about all this is I feel like that "left turn" was another one of those course corrections to try and make the PT fit with the OT, however shitty and disjointed, which is why the portrayal of Anakin in the first two prequels felt so wrong from the start. OT Vader/Anakin WAS a tragic and romantic figure, an allegedly great man everyone admired but that fell, but subsequently expressed resentment and regret, and was revealed to be conflicted or tortured about it before being redeemed.

That's an interesting view.  I've never thought of it like that. It does make sense. 

Personally, I always saw Vader as an "end justifies the means" type.  I saw him as a Jedi knight/soldier, trained by and fighting with his friend Obi-Wan, fighting a war that drags on, whose horrific experiences in battle take a toll on him so he starts becoming more and more extreme in his views and actions.  This causes him to bump heads with the other Jedi (and whatever other group he was fighting for) who disagree with him and his methods.  Couple that with the Emperor essentially becoming his yes man, sharing his views and telling him how right he is, while nurturing his extremism and Vader starts questioning the organizations/causes he's fighting for, whether they're capable of winning the war and bringing peace and all that.  Eventually he views the groups/causes he once fought for as the enemy.  The Emperor teaches him the dark side, and fueled by the anger/hate that has built up inside him the two destroy the old order and establish the Empire while Vader hunts down the Jedi to (what they think is) the point of extinction.  At some point in there Obi-Wan fucks him up while trying to stop his best friend and Mrs. Vader takes his children and makes a run for it once they realize what he has become.

To me, Vader was the personification of anger/hate to the point where the Imperial Navy had a high turnover rate for officers because Vader would Force choke them to death for anything but the best of good news.  At the same time he was also a true believer in the Empire (he wanted Luke to join him in killing the Emperor to rule the Empire instead of killing the Emperor to destroy the Empire) and the dark side (both he and the Emperor wanted Luke to join the dark side) even if he was essentially a slave to the Emperor.  It wasn't until he found out his son was still alive that the spark of good in him was reignited, culminating in his act of selfless love for his child that washed him of his anger/hatred and put him back in the good graces of the Force.

Knowing the angle from which I viewed Vader, when the first two PT films came out it made sense.  TPM presented Anakin, his future baby momma, the start of his relationship with Palpatine, and the foundation for a strained relationship with the Jedi.  AotC furthered this with the flowering of his relationship with his baby momma, furthered his relationship with Palpatine, furthered his rocky relationship with the Jedi, started his path towards the dark side, and even had him starting to see a dictatorship as preferable to the inept republic when it came to the war effort.  So for me when RotS came out, and Lucas turned Anakin from a Jedi knight with a moral compass skewed by the horrors of war and Palpatine's influence into a rube who was sold a bill of goods by a snake oil salesman, only realizing his mistake after he was trapped, it seemed to come out of left field.

Anakin in the prequels is more a study in what Lucas described as a selfish person becoming an evil one, or the true origin of an evil person and what they really are. I'd almost give Lucas credit for this boldness, "fuck Darth Vader" if everything wasn't so disjointed. Otherwise he'd be admirable for not aggrandizing Vader but instead rejecting that conventional wisdom and saying, no, Vader's not a badass, he's a bad human being, he was a pathetically selfish person that turned to evil and that's why he ended up the way he did. Anakin was always a bad guy, just not a Bad Guy yet, but still always a petulant pissbaby you wouldn't even want to be in the same room with, let alone admire. Which makes the unnecessarily forced "left turn," where it's like Palpatine hypnotizes him or something, doubly strange, because there's literally two different versions of the same story happening at once, either of which would work apart, but both together create an awful case of cognitive dissonance coming from both sides of the series. This also creates the mental switch in one's view of the saga overall where Vader/Anakin goes from being the baddest dude in the galaxy, a man whose decision the world literally turned on, to a total loser and a patsy.

I couldn't agree with you more, my friend.

Before that, I think it was natural to extrapolate Luke's arc, and his temptation and flirtations with the dark side, as a parallel to Anakin's, with the alternative outcome that he does turn, but was worth redeeming because ultimately he wasn't so different from Luke (and his redemption validated Luke and vice versa, instead of Luke just saving his loser dad). It turned out to be much more straightforward though, Luke didn't turn to the dark side because he was ever and always a good and loyal person, Anakin never was.

I agree.  I can't speak for Lucas, but I wouldn't be surprised if that's what he was shooting for when he made all those parallels between ANH and TPM.  Why he didn't continue down that road is beyond me though.  Unless he did, but he did such a bad job at it that we can't tell.  :serpico:

You mean his CLONE'S CHILD with Jyn Erso!? :magni: Well, yeah, DUH, I thought the foreshadowing in TFA was OBVIOUS! Otherwise, she's clearly the product of the combined DNA of Obi-Wan, Luke and Anakin delivered through Han's penis unto the then fertilized eggs of Princess Leia (given Rey's natural abilities, that would make the most sense actually =).

We joke, but when you look at some of the Anakin/Vader shit they were really considering for TFA, to the point of doing the concept art for it, nothing would surprise me. I know it's not popular with the "cool" Star Wars fans, but just make her Luke's daughter, please. We've already got Rogue One for the anti-Skywalker perverts that want the point of Star Wars to be its minutia.

I try not to delve too much into TFA's earlier scripts and ideas.  I think it'd just detract from my feelings for the film.  I looked up two deleted scenes because they answered the two big questions I had after watching TFA, the lightsaber one I mentioned earlier and the other explaining why Kylo is such a dark side/Vader fanboy despite the fact Vader turned good again (Snoke convinced him that Vader turning good was a moment of weakness in his dying moments, it turns out), but when I watched a third deleted scene it was one that would've made the film's haters go apeshit if they had included it.  So I decided to call it a day on diving into the film's development.

I just assumed Rey is Luke's daughter.  In the film it's mentioned she has dreams or something of a father/parental figure and, associated with it, an island.  At the end of the film she finds Luke... on an island.  I thought the case was closed, but some very recent interviews on the subject are starting to make me a little nervous that they're going into another direction.  Or maybe they think the obvious clue in TFA is super subtle so they're teasing what we already know.  (And given that most of the SW fandom is obsessed with the "who's her parents?!" question makes that just as likely.)  If they put some random asshole, or Imperial midi-chlorian research facility, on an island in The Last Jedi I'm going to be pissed.  :serpico:

As I've said before, Anakin in the Clone Wars is what he should have always been. The movies ruined his character on screen 100%, but CW redeems him. It actually has the time to show a natural progression to the dark side (losing friends, getting fed up with the Jedi order, etc). It makes sense when watching it over five seasons, as opposed to three movies. It's why he's probably my favorite character in the entire SW universe, movies and all.

CW does so many great things.  I like that they turned the clone troopers from faceless CGI cannon fodder into actual people fighting an actual war.  I like that they showed Palpatine's consolidation of power beyond just playing the republic and the Jedi for fools.  I like that they elaborate on how the war affects the Jedi order.  (The one scene from the final season where Yoda has that vision
 of how the Jedi temple and the Jedi used to be before their decline, made my heart break because it was such a beautiful, peaceful place full of peaceful philosopher-types
.)  Count Dooku's escape from Hondo's jail was also incredible.  He seemed so tame for a Sith lord in AotC and the early CW episodes, but him murdering all those pirates as he calmly escapes gave me a "holy shit this guy really is a dark side monster" feeling of disgust in my stomach. And, of course, it gave us the total badass Cad Bane.

Speaking of Cad Bane, whatever happened to Rogue One's villains being the bounty hunters from ESB as well as Cade Bane in his live action film debut?  Before the film came out I remember being really excited about that announcement.  How did Saw Gerrera make the cut but Bane didn't?!
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi
Post by: Griffith on April 20, 2017, 02:34:05 PM
Come on now.  Admit it.  This is more fun than trying to convince those scruffy-looking nerf herders that TFA isn't the The Room of big budget films.  :carcus:

Well, those people weren't the ones I was arguing with, unfortunately! They never rose to my challenge. :daiba:

To me though it was never binary.  I never thought all light side users were Jedi and all dark side users were Sith.  There was absolutely no proof of this until The Clone Wars (and later TFA as far as the actual movies are concerned), but I always just assumed the Jedi (and the Sith once TPM came out) were like schools of philosophy, political parties, or religious sects.  In other words, the Jedi/Sith were the dominant groups, but you could have multiple dark side groups, multiple light side groups, etc. 

But I admit I also assumed the Empire was pretty old, being greatly disappointed when it turned out that Palpatine had only ruled for ~19 years.  So my assumptions miss more than they hit.  :ganishka:

Well, I think it was fair not to assume too much about the Jedi in the beginning because not much was said about them except they used the Force, and then later how that could/should be good and how that could be bad. It was only in the PT where they started the more dogmatic Jedi/Sith thing and made it all seem so rigid. True story: the "there's always two; a master and an apprentice" line at the end of Episode I, I just thought that was a cool line about masters and apprentices in general, like, "if there's one, there's another." I didn't think that was supposed to pass for a philosophy! Subsequently I've never been a fan of the rule of two or the Sith; the explanation was more thin than the inferences you get from the OT, which is the problem with the PT in a nutshell.

That's an interesting view.  I've never thought of it like that. It does make sense. 

Personally, I always saw Vader as an "end justifies the means" type.

Yeah, I don't think he was lying or just trying to trick Luke when he made his pitch to him to "end this destructive conflict" and rule the galaxy as father and son, but he needed Luke to buy in to pull it off and for personal reasons. I think it was his own idea of redemption, but Luke saw through it because it was still bad.

To me, Vader was the personification of anger/hate to the point where the Imperial Navy had a high turnover rate for officers because Vader would Force choke them to death for anything but the best of good news.

What's interesting is Vader seems more reasonable in the first movie, like he's skeptical of the Death Star, is initially taken aback by Tarkin's willingness to use it almost casually, and he only chokes that officer for being a dick about the Force but they all seem more like his peers, or superior in Tarkin's case, than him being the #2 guy in the Empire or something. He was more unique because of his scary outfit and the force, but just another bad old Empire guy in a special suit, like the muscle of the operation. So, his transformation into the Greatest Villain in Cinema History in Empire where he's killing his own dudes right and left is in part because of a creative decision to make him the big bad and stronger, but I rationalize it in the story as his newfound zealousness to go after Luke, which is supported in the crawl and his behavior looking for the Rebel base and throughout, "THAT'S IT." He knows! =)

Knowing the angle from which I viewed Vader, when the first two PT films came out it made sense.  TPM presented Anakin, his future baby momma, the start of his relationship with Palpatine, and the foundation for a strained relationship with the Jedi.  AotC furthered this with the flowering of his relationship with his baby momma, furthered his relationship with Palpatine, furthered his rocky relationship with the Jedi, started his path towards the dark side, and even had him starting to see a dictatorship as preferable to the inept republic when it came to the war effort.  So for me when RotS came out, and Lucas turned Anakin from a Jedi knight with a moral compass skewed by the horrors of war and Palpatine's influence into a rube who was sold a bill of goods by a snake oil salesman, only realizing his mistake after he was trapped, it seemed to come out of left field.

Yep, that's another reason Attack of the Clones is probably the best of a bad bunch despite being monumentally disappointing in its own right. Revenge of the Sith had more a setup and payoff like we'd previously expected, but after the shift from the previous two it was too little, too late and really amounted to even more disjointed fanservice, "Ok, starting over, dumping all that TPM/AotC stuff you hated, Anakin's cool now, it's Palpatine vs. Yoda, Anakin vs. Obi-Wan co-headliners at Wrestlemania, this is what you plebs all wanted... RIGHT!?"

BTW, it always bugged me that Anakin said, "Don't make me kill you" instead of the more Vaderish, "Don't make me destroy you." Little details. It probably wouldn't have helped since Hayden Christensen delivered all his lines like he was on meds.

I try not to delve too much into TFA's earlier scripts and ideas.  I think it'd just detract from my feelings for the film.  I looked up two deleted scenes because they answered the two big questions I had after watching TFA, the lightsaber one I mentioned earlier and the other explaining why Kylo is such a dark side/Vader fanboy despite the fact Vader turned good again (Snoke convinced him that Vader turning good was a moment of weakness in his dying moments, it turns out), but when I watched a third deleted scene it was one that would've made the film's haters go apeshit if they had included it.  So I decided to call it a day on diving into the film's development.

The only one I longed for was Kylo Ren on the Falcon, a scene I read about when I got spoiled on the BIGGEST SPOILER IN THE MOVIE! Fucking Making Star Wars just casually mentioned that in what appeared to be a random article about the Millennium Falcon. Staying away from there this time.

I just assumed Rey is Luke's daughter.  In the film it's mentioned she has dreams or something of a father/parental figure and, associated with it, an island.  At the end of the film she finds Luke... on an island.  I thought the case was closed, but some very recent interviews on the subject are starting to make me a little nervous that they're going into another direction.  Or maybe they think the obvious clue in TFA is super subtle so they're teasing what we already know.  (And given that most of the SW fandom is obsessed with the "who's her parents?!" question makes that just as likely.)  If they put some random asshole, or Imperial midi-chlorian research facility, on an island in The Last Jedi I'm going to be pissed.  :serpico:

Yeah, don't get too cute with it, even something like being related to Obi-Wan somehow only makes LESS sense because, ya know, he was dead decades before she was born and then just so happened to get mixed up with the Skywalkers (it explains her British accent though; in Star Wars it's transmitted by blood, maybe even midichlorians =). Anyway, yeah, more randomness does not necessarily equal better storytelling.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi
Post by: Skeleton on April 27, 2017, 07:11:12 AM
If The Force Awakens is any indication, I look forward to teaming up with you in two years to defend Rogue One when Walter criticizes it.  :carcus:

The thing I find interesting about the "The Force Awakens is a A New Hope clone" is that, even if it were true (objectively it ain't), it might be the most Star Wars thing Disney could do (and a negative that Disney didn't do it).

Think of the plot of ANH:  There's a boy from Tatooine who is unknowingly gifted with the Force (Luke).  He's found by a wizened Jedi (Obi-Wan) who takes him off-world to complete a quest (deliver the Death Star plans to the Rebels).  They're attacked by the bad guys just as they're making their escape (stormtroopers).  Through the course of the film there's a rescue of a female royal member (Princess Leia), the wizened Jedi is killed by a member of the Sith (Darth Vader kills Obi-Wan), and the Tatooine boy, with the help of R2-D2 and the Force, ends/wins the final battle by destroying a gigantic enemy ship (Death Star) that threatens the good guys the royal member is associated with (Rebels).  The movie ends with the good guys having a grand ceremony and celebration presided over by the royal member they rescued.

Now think of the plot of The Phantom Menace:  There's a boy from Tatooine who is unknowingly gifted with the Force (Anakin).  He's found by a wizened Jedi (Qui-Gon Jinn) who takes him off-world to complete a quest (deliver Amidala to the Senate).  They're attacked by the bad guys just as they're making their escape (Darth Maul).  Through the course of the film there's a rescue of a female royal member (Queen Amidala), the wizened Jedi is killed by a member of the Sith (Darth Maul kills Qui-Gon), and the Tatooine boy, with the help of R2-D2 and the Force, ends/wins the final battle by destroying a gigantic enemy ship (droid control ship) that threatens the good guys the royal member is associated with (Naboo).  The movie ends with the good guys having a grand ceremony and celebration presided over by the royal member they rescued.

See?  With the exception of superficial differences and the rearranging of events, it's Star Wars tradition to start every trilogy with the exact same movie.  So the fact that Disney didn't just copy A New Hope means The Force Awakens really is a terrible Star Wars film, and the TFA haters are right.

Someone took out their balls and deadsprinted straight at the wall with this. (http://www.starwarsringtheory.com/ring-composition-chiasmus-hidden-artistry-star-wars-prequels/)(http://i227.photobucket.com/albums/dd233/AndrogynousRockStar/IMG_0745_zps8aszaa7m.gif)
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi
Post by: Griffith on April 27, 2017, 08:01:47 PM
http://www.starwarsringtheory.com/ring-composition-chiasmus-hidden-artistry-star-wars-prequels/

(http://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/mortyandmorty_9332.png)

ďNot really, Jerry. Probably a cosmetic connection your mind mistakes for thematic.Ē


I've read think-pieces like this before on the DEEP, MYTHOLOGICAL UNDERPINNINGS of the prequels, a dark journey through Hell not unlike Dante, but we were all too dumb to give Georgy Genius due credit. That or it's for children (http://www.polygon.com/2017/4/13/15288998/george-lucas-star-wars-celebration) (or, is (https://youtu.be/ZG1AWVLnl48?t=187) it? (https://youtu.be/SOlG4T1S2lU?t=412)). Probably both, one for the other; after all, it's pretty deep for a 12 year old. Whatever it is it sucked either way though.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi
Post by: Skeleton on April 28, 2017, 02:23:58 AM
 :ganishka:

I could talk about Star Wars until the end of time, but after reading about 1.5 pages of that even my eyes started to glaze over. The next time you think "ah crap that loser Skeleton is posting in the SW thread again" keep in mind that it could be worse. You could be talking to that guy.  :serpico:

I do find the Lucas quotes interesting though, as far as us talking about the parallels between Luke and Anakin are concerned (as well as whether or not TFA is a good Star Wars film).

Quote
Now, Lucas has spoken often about the use of repetition in Star Wars. He typically puts it in a musical context: ď[Star Wars] is purposely written like a piece of music, with themes that repeat themselves in different ways, and ideas that reprise from one generation to the next.Ē 12 However, in The Beginning, a documentary on the making of Episode 1, he instead likens the repetitions to poetry: ďInstead of destroying the Death Star [like Luke], [Anakin] destroys the ship that controls the robots. Itís like poetry. Every stanza kind of rhymes with the last one.Ē

Quote
On Episode 1ís DVD commentary track, Lucas elaborates on the deliberate use of repetition throughout the saga, perhaps helping us begin to understand the bigger picture:

"Itís a musical idea. You have a lyrical refrain and you keep playing it over and over again using different instrumentation, different octaves. It changes every time you rehear it. Itís the same note played differently. Iíve tried to use that right from the very beginning when I did Star Wars. Literally it came out with something I was trying to do with [THX-1138]. Instead of three acts, there was almost like three different movies, but each movie is telling the same story in a different way. I became fascinated with that idea. Itís kind of visual jazz. You go off on a riff on the same idea. You just take a concept and just interpret it differently visually. And thereís a lot of that going on in these movies. I like the idea of cyclical motifs that keep occurring over and over and over again."

And I found this hilarious:

Quote
Consider [RedLetterMedia's] Mike Stoklasa unimpressed: ďThatís the stupidest thing Iíve ever heard."

So my question is if Disney had respected Lucas (and his vision) enough to follow his lead and copied ANH/TPM with superficial differences, wouldn't that make it a good SW film in the sense that it'd fit perfectly with the other films? Or does the fact it's a remix of OT scenes with some creativity interspersed mean it's a bad SW film?

In other words, are Walter and Aaz right that TFA is an ANH clone (and therefore a good, Lucas-style SW film)? Or are they wrong, and it's a bad, Lucas-style SW film?

Edited to fix a rogue quotation mark.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi
Post by: Griffith on April 28, 2017, 05:48:04 AM
I do find the Lucas quotes interesting though, as far as us talking about the parallels between Luke and Anakin are concerned (as well as whether or not TFA is a good Star Wars film).

It's interesting since it completely contradicts his criticism of TFA as a nostalgia movie for fans rather than the musical jazz poetry he had in mind. This despite the fact that it does respect his vision for Episode VII and a sequel trilogy as far as its protagonist (Rey = Kira) and the circular/cyclical nature of the poetry/music/jazz storytelling BS goes (it somehow actually does a better job both at recalling the past AND being fresh than his attempts).

This hypocrisy is further exacerbated by his alleged, anecdotal, approval of Rogue One, which is nothing more than an OT fanfic literally remixing and reusing assets from ANH (and Empire); plot, characters, costumes, vehicles, sets, EVERYTHING in it is recycled and reskinned over threadbare characters and story elements arbitrarily compiled in an editing bay. It does this while also taking Lucas' worst prequel tendencies to their logical extremes and turning real actors, human beings, like Peter Cushing and Carrie Fisher into Jar Jar Binks, "Finally, who needs live actors when we can just (re)animate dead ones with a computer!? This is for you, George, your dream realized. :judo:"

Although... it would be tempting to try this with Hayden Christensen's performance if Lucas was still in charge of revising each re-release, like the bad new puppet to CGI Yoda upgrade in TPM :carcus:

(http://s1.storage.akamai.coub.com/get/b73/p/coub/simple/cw_timeline_pic/d2b6548a0ed/dcba1e5116ba19ee7e049/big_1471759753_image.jpg)

Now if only they'd done this for the Anakin puppet they used. Oh, right...

(https://68.media.tumblr.com/f4d2b9c21dfc898c589db19f768ebc2c/tumblr_nqikckhvON1rv6ukfo1_1280.png)
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi
Post by: JMP on May 03, 2017, 02:25:54 AM
I still can't recommend Clone Wars enough. It's amazing.
I second Johnstantine.  The Clone Wars had the unenviable task of trying to polish the PT turd, and I think it did a great job of it.  There were some episodes I loved, some I liked, and some I didn't like.  But overall I enjoyed and recommend it.
Hmm, Iím going to give it a shot! Iíd like to see this part of the story fleshed out more.

I liked the new trailer overall. Very stoked for the upcoming movie! :ubik:

So, who has preordered their copy of the Phasma (https://www.amazon.com/Phasma-Star-Wars-Delilah-Dawson/dp/152479631X) novel?  :ganishka: One thing that bugged me about the last movie was how easily it seemed like she gave up when she was captured and told to take down the shields. I mean, she was supposed to be this hardcore leader. Seems like that type would rather die than divulge something like that and yet she did it in a heartbeat. I would like to know more about her, though. Iíll probably read it, if only for the steamy scenes (Fifty Shades of Chromium).
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi
Post by: Griffith on May 04, 2017, 03:13:11 PM
Internet on 5/4/17:

May the Fourth Be With You: Watch This Mashup of Star Wars Characters Singing ĎAll Starí

No thanks.(http://www.skullknight.net/griffith/zodd.gif)
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi
Post by: Walter on May 04, 2017, 03:18:44 PM
Oh is it that time of year again already? Time to celebrate!!!

Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi
Post by: Eluvei on May 04, 2017, 06:34:19 PM
I also watched Clone Wars and found it entertaining enough back then, but now I can't remember very much about it, even though it's only been like two years.

It's just average. There are some fun episode arcs but that's it. It's definitely not as hilariously bad as the four prequels, but it just feels like you're walking around a half-deserted prequel MMO or something. I only recommend it if these three conditions apply to you simultaneously:

I second Johnstantine.  The Clone Wars had the unenviable task of trying to polish the PT turd, and I think it did a great job of it.

Maybe it does, but I dunno, I'd personally throw away the tools with which I polished a turd. :troll:
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi
Post by: Griffith on May 04, 2017, 06:35:04 PM
So, who has preordered their copy of the Phasma (https://www.amazon.com/Phasma-Star-Wars-Delilah-Dawson/dp/152479631X) novel?  :ganishka:

Seems side characters getting novels is synonymous with being thrown down the garbage chute. :carcus:

It's just average. There are some fun episode arcs but that's it. It's definitely not as hilariously bad as the four prequels, but it just feels like you're walking around a half-deserted prequel MMO or something. I only recommend it if these three conditions apply to you simultaneously:
  • you're a hardcore fan
  • with some work left to do
  • with a smaller monitor/TV to leave it on at a lower volume.

This is much more in line with my admittedly very limited experience with the series than the rave reviews I see here and elsewhere. It just doesn't seem worth the effort to somewhat rehabilitate something terrible I'd rather have nothing to with (and the actual movies will still be terrible, I'll just have some warped view of their characters and their arcs hardly anyone else will comprehend).


In other Last Jedi news today: Rian Johnson doesn't just move scars across faces, it was also his request that R2-D2 accompany Rey to see Luke instead of BB-8, who now goes with Poe. The question is: why would it have ever been otherwise, other than all the BB-8 marketing? On that note, why not just have R2 be in Poe's possession in the first place? How much would that have changed your perception of the movie? Would people bitch even more about it being a ANH clone, or just go, "FUCK IT, R2 IS BACK! STAAAR WAAARS!!"
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi
Post by: Aazealh on May 04, 2017, 07:58:07 PM
In other Last Jedi news today: Rian Johnson doesn't just move scars across faces, it was also his request that R2-D2 accompany Rey to see Luke instead of BB-8, who now goes with Poe. The question is: why would it have ever been otherwise, other than all the BB-8 marketing? On that note, why not just have R2 be in Poe's possession in the first place? How much would that have changed your perception of the movie? Would people bitch even more about it being a ANH clone, or just go, "FUCK IT, R2 IS BACK! STAAAR WAAARS!!"

I think I need a 10.000 words dissertion to better grasp all the aspects of that very important issue. :iva:
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi
Post by: NightCrawler on May 04, 2017, 10:30:39 PM
Might not be the best thread to post this, but why not. I was watching this John Higgs talk with Alan Moore about the 20th century, and they dwell into sci-fi (actually what kickstarts this specific moment was Higgs mentioning Prometheus), with Moore doing a very quick summary of the history of the genre and some of its themes (starting with Frankenstein), ending with Star Wars (you can guess what he thinks about it :serpico:).

It starts at the 15min mark, although I'd recommend watching the whole thing: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RpajFQECzAk
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi
Post by: Griffith on May 04, 2017, 10:44:38 PM
I think I need a 10.000 words dissertion to better grasp all the aspects of that very important issue. :iva:

You're in luck because I just got word that we're getting another novelization of The Force Awakens from R2-D2's POV from the corner sleeping like a canary with a blanket over his head. It's going to be trippy as hell when we see his surrealist view of what's happening through his dreamscape! Luke will be represented as a kindred spirit in the form of a Golden Retriever with droid paw.
 
Might not be the best thread to post this, but why not. I was watching this John Higgs talk with Alan Moore about the 20th century, and they dwell into sci-fi (actually what kickstarts this specific moment was Higgs mentioning Prometheus), with Moore doing a very quick summary of the history of the genre and some of its themes (starting with Frankenstein), ending with Star Wars (you can guess what he thinks about it :serpico:).

It starts at the 15min mark, although I'd recommend watching the whole thing: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RpajFQECzAk

Sounds interesting, though the latter, completely predictable, implication makes me wish I'd tweaked Moore in my Miura defense as I'd originally written. As one can guess it was around the "creative dickhead" part, making clear that it's so obviously affected and I wouldn't want Miura to be a big phony like that either. Not an evaluation of Moore's actual work mind you, but his posture has more to do with being bitterly insufferable and obnoxious than an eccentric genius and true artist of integrity. I'm biased though because I'm pretty dubious of every artistic "genius" and prefer humble artists that simply do consistently, empirically sound work from which bouts of transcendence can occur. It's got to be good craft before it can be great art; otherwise it's a bullshit sell, and the reason so few of these auteurs don't disappoint later, "Time to flip the genius switch and shit out some gold! Uh oh, it's just regular shit. Damn." So a guy like Miura, who mainly let's his work do the talking, is always going to impress me more than the big talkers explaining their grand visions because nobody else can get it right.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi
Post by: Skeleton on May 05, 2017, 12:48:17 AM
Hmm, Iím going to give it a shot! Iíd like to see this part of the story fleshed out more.

That's great!  I can't wait to hear what you think of it. :)

So, who has preordered their copy of the Phasma (https://www.amazon.com/Phasma-Star-Wars-Delilah-Dawson/dp/152479631X) novel?  :ganishka: One thing that bugged me about the last movie was how easily it seemed like she gave up when she was captured and told to take down the shields. I mean, she was supposed to be this hardcore leader. Seems like that type would rather die than divulge something like that and yet she did it in a heartbeat. I would like to know more about her, though. Iíll probably read it, if only for the steamy scenes (Fifty Shades of Chromium).

It's hard for me to get motivated to read a SW novel.  The string of objectively terrible EU novels I read when I was young poisoned that well for me.  (I was actually really excited about the SW Aftermath novel, but after it came out and bombed in the reviews I became weary of post-EU, Disney era SW books.)  But if it ends up being great I'll definitely check it out. . .  I hope it ends up being great.  :sad:

I also watched Clone Wars and found it entertaining enough back then, but now I can't remember very much about it, even though it's only been like two years.

It's just average. There are some fun episode arcs but that's it.

I think the multi-episode arcs in the later seasons actually detracted from the show's quality to a degree because the show's quality comes from the "human level" experiences rather than grand stories that deal with the overarching Star Wars myth.  Most of the episodes that I thought were fantastic don't have an effect on the overall Star Wars myth (troopers defend or lose a planet or base that's never mentioned or seen again in the Star Wars story) and don't include the mythos' major players (like Anakin, sorry Johnstantine).  But I love them because they take these lesser characters that are normally no more than canon fodder and give them an an ocean's worth of depth.  They make you care about characters you wouldn't otherwise care about.  They make you see an event from multiple, unique perspectives.  They show you the effects that these events have on practically everyone involved.  The characters interact naturally and grow and question and wonder.

Like the devil, the greatness of Clone Wars is in the details.  If you're just interested in world-changing stories that affect the Star Wars mythos then you'll definitely think the show is terrible.  And if you just have it playing while you focus on other things it's definitely going to suck.  :ganishka:

This is much more in line with my admittedly very limited experience with the series than the rave reviews I see here and elsewhere. It just doesn't seem worth the effort to somewhat rehabilitate something terrible I'd rather have nothing to with (and the actual movies will still be terrible, I'll just have some warped view of their characters and their arcs hardly anyone else will comprehend).

It's funny because Clone Wars didn't change my perception of the prequel trilogy at all.  That's what they were trying to do, but what it ended up doing is replacing the prequel trilogy as the "prequel" in my mind.  For example, if you asked me to think of the Clone Wars I don't immediately think of  the shitty, soulless army of CGI troopers fighting the shitty, soulless army of CGI droids from the prequel trilogy or of Anakin and Obi-Wan rescuing Palpatine at the beginning of Revenge of the Sith.  I think of what happens during the Clone Wars series.

I'd have to watch the series again just to be confident in saying this, but I think you could probably even watch only the Clone Wars and Ghost, and you wouldn't be missing much by not seeing the prequel trilogy.  Sure, you wouldn't see exactly how Anakin became Vader (for example), but between the original trilogy and CW/Ghost there's enough there to piece it together. To me, now that we have Clone Wars and Ghost, the prequel trilogy is essentially the Berserk: The Flame Dragon Knight of Star Wars.  :ganishka:

I'm not trying to convince you to watch the show or that you'll think the same way as me if you do watch it.  I'm just saying it's not terrible.  And for me personally it was a net positive as far as making up for the prequel trilogy is concerned. (Plus the last couple of seasons reveal some more George Lucas hypocrisy when it comes to what he says about Star Wars versus what he says about the new movies.  The series literally has everything in it!  :serpico:)
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi
Post by: NightCrawler on May 05, 2017, 01:32:10 AM
Sounds interesting, though the latter, completely predictable, implication makes me wish I'd tweaked Moore in my Miura defense as I'd originally written. As one can guess it was around the "creative dickhead" part, making clear that it's so obviously affected and I wouldn't want Miura to be a big phony like that either. Not an evaluation of Moore's actual work mind you, but his posture has more to do with being bitterly insufferable and obnoxious than an eccentric genius and true artist of integrity. I'm biased though because I'm pretty dubious of every artistic "genius" and prefer humble artists that simply do consistently, empirically sound work from which bouts of transcendence can occur. It's got to be good craft before it can be great art; otherwise it's a bullshit sell, and the reason so few of these auteurs don't disappoint later, "Time to flip the genius switch and shit out some gold! Uh oh, it's just regular shit. Damn." So a guy like Miura, who mainly let's his work do the talking, is always going to impress me more than the big talkers explaining their grand visions because nobody else can get it right.

Blasphemy ahead: I can think of 4 works by Moore that are equal in artistry to Berserk, and one of them is his most recent (and probably last?) foray in comics: Providence - which i firmly believe will be a classic. If Watchmen is the zenith of super hero comics, then Providence will be the same for horror.
But, and it's quite a big one, he has way more duds than Miura will most likely ever have.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi
Post by: Griffith on May 05, 2017, 04:09:46 AM
It's hard for me to get motivated to read a SW novel.  The string of objectively terrible EU novels I read when I was young poisoned that well for me.

Shadows of the Empire was a big one for me. I don't know how embarassing that is because I haven't read it since middle school, but I remember there was a sexy robot assassin that bones a lizard man so probably very much. On the bright side, it continued the character development of Luke and Vader from Empire in ways Jedi sort of passed over; Luke becoming more like a Jedi and Vader wrestling with his identity and place in the galaxy.

Quote
It's funny because Clone Wars didn't change my perception of the prequel trilogy at all.  That's what they were trying to do, but what it ended up doing is replacing the prequel trilogy as the "prequel" in my mind.  For example, if you asked me to think of the Clone Wars I don't immediately think of  the shitty, soulless army of CGI troopers fighting the shitty, soulless army of CGI droids from the prequel trilogy
Quote
I'm not trying to convince you to watch the show

Oh yeah? Because that's a pretty attractive argument, "Erase the prequels from your memories; it was only a bad dream!" :ganishka:

Blasphemy ahead: I can think of 4 works by Moore that are equal in artistry to Berserk, and one of them is his most recent (and probably last?) foray in comics: Providence - which i firmly believe will be a classic.

Nah, like I said, no sacred cows here. Moore does have great work, it's his public persona or shtick, and the cult of personality around it (to be fair everyone is probably just humoring him =), that bugs me. What are your other two works of his you put with big B? V and the now controversial Killing Joke are probably the most famous.

Quote
If Watchmen is the zenith of super hero comics

Is it? Can you be the zenith of something while being a deconstruction of and commentary on it? I suppose it is, but I see it as sort of a separate kind of work. It's almost a deservice to both it and "pure" superhero stories to call it the zenith. Like it didn't elevate the superhero comic so much as it chronicled and explored its depths.

Then again, Unbreakable or The Incredibles might be the zenith of superhero movies, but again, I don't consider them the same. =)

Quote
But, and it's quite a big one, he has way more duds than Miura will most likely ever have.

Well, it's a double edged sword, Miura does benefit from the foundation he's built, he could probably make Guts passing gas fascinating to me at this point, but building and maintaining such a level of quality for this long without burning out, losing interest himself or fucking up indefensibly is incredible (hard to imagine Moore or anyone else working on something this long without wrecking it, purposefully or not). Plus, he's actually successfully reinvented the story multiple times while making it seem totally cohesive stretching all the way back to almost the very beginning (missed it by a few pages =). Also, unlike someone like Lucas, it doesn't feel like he's just resting on his laurels and doing the same thing forever because that's pretty much all he's got to say. He slowly built Berserk into what it is today, and it still seems vital and to possess him even if he'd also like to try other things (but he's not short-changing it or doing it injustice). Anyway, a rare achievement all around. I hope he gets a chance to risk a few duds after Berserk though. It'd be great to see him develop some far out sci-fi or pure horror, or both! Just imagine him doing a truly unseemly horror comic. *shudders*
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi
Post by: Eluvei on May 05, 2017, 06:02:07 PM
I think the multi-episode arcs in the later seasons actually detracted from the show's quality to a degree because the show's quality comes from the "human level" experiences rather than grand stories that deal with the overarching Star Wars myth.  Most of the episodes that I thought were fantastic don't have an effect on the overall Star Wars myth (troopers defend or lose a planet or base that's never mentioned or seen again in the Star Wars story) and don't include the mythos' major players (like Anakin, sorry Johnstantine).  But I love them because they take these lesser characters that are normally no more than canon fodder and give them an an ocean's worth of depth.  They make you care about characters you wouldn't otherwise care about.  They make you see an event from multiple, unique perspectives.  They show you the effects that these events have on practically everyone involved.  The characters interact naturally and grow and question and wonder.

I agree with pretty much all of this, but instead of "fantastic" I'd say "alright" and instead of "ocean's worth of depth" I'd say "kind of good depth" :iva:

For the record, my favorite episode was probably the one involving the Jedi kids trying to find those crystals in that cavern so they could build those light sabers. I can't remember much of it though, only that when it ended, I said to myself, "this was fine."
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi
Post by: Johnstantine on May 08, 2017, 12:49:59 PM
If Watchmen is the zenith of super hero comics, then Providence will be the same for horror.

Personally, Watchmen is more of the zenith of deconstructionism in comics in general, not so much super hero comics. I'd say that the zenith of super hero comics in a classical sense is All Star Superman.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi
Post by: Salem on May 08, 2017, 12:56:51 PM
Personally, Watchmen is more of the zenith of deconstructionism in comics in general, not so much super hero comics. I'd say that the zenith of super hero comics in a classical sense is All Star Superman.

I can not get behind or understand the raving amazement for All Star Superman.  Of all the critically acclaimed stories, that one has me scratching my head.  I'd take watchmen over that any day of the week.  Even TDKR is better written, though the art is atrocious.   I'd put Kindom Come as the king as far as D.C. Is concerned.

There any news on the next trailer for TLJ?
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi
Post by: Johnstantine on May 08, 2017, 03:39:14 PM
I can not get behind or understand the raving amazement for All Star Superman.  Of all the critically acclaimed stories, that one has me scratching my head.  I'd take watchmen over that any day of the week.  Even TDKR is better written, though the art is atrocious.   I'd put Kindom Come as the king as far as D.C. Is concerned.

Did you even read All Star Superman?

There any news on the next trailer for TLJ?

We literally just got one. Don't expect to see it until later this year.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi
Post by: Salem on May 08, 2017, 04:49:39 PM
Did you even read All Star Superman?

We literally just got one. Don't expect to see it until later this year.

I own All Star Superman.  In fact that's one of the only graphic novels I really didn't enjoy.  Idk, just really don't see the fuss behind it.  Red Son, Earth One, even Death Of over that any day.  Supes really isn't my cup of tea, so there is that.  I'd love to upload a pic of all my graphic novels, but I truly suck at getting that done on here vs the easy way on social media.

Ah c'mon, that was a "teaser."   :ganishka:   Thought there was another convention soon. 
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi
Post by: Skeleton on May 10, 2017, 12:37:47 AM
In other Last Jedi news today: Rian Johnson doesn't just move scars across faces, it was also his request that R2-D2 accompany Rey to see Luke instead of BB-8, who now goes with Poe. The question is: why would it have ever been otherwise, other than all the BB-8 marketing? On that note, why not just have R2 be in Poe's possession in the first place? How much would that have changed your perception of the movie? Would people bitch even more about it being a ANH clone, or just go, "FUCK IT, R2 IS BACK! STAAAR WAAARS!!"

I haven't been following the development of TLJ so I'm coming from a place of pure ignorance, but is it wrong of me to take that as a (admittedly very small) sign that this movie might be headed in the right direction?  While Jar Jar Abrams was yukking it up about wanting to put Jar Jar Bink's skull on Jakku, Rian Johnson was running around making sure TFA didn't hinder his chances of making a great Star Wars film.

Based solely on this revelation, I'm calling it now:  TLJ will be the best Star Wars film ever made, leaving ESB in its dust.  :troll:

God I hope that's true. :sad:

Shadows of the Empire was a big one for me. I don't know how embarassing that is because I haven't read it since middle school, but I remember there was a sexy robot assassin that bones a lizard man so probably very much. On the bright side, it continued the character development of Luke and Vader from Empire in ways Jedi sort of passed over; Luke becoming more like a Jedi and Vader wrestling with his identity and place in the galaxy.

I've always felt like I've been missing out on some great things the EU has produced, but I just can't tolerate the silly side of the EU enough to get to it.  I love the idea of a book that develops Luke and Vader more, but the "anything goes" nature of the EU kills it for me.  (Although everyone raves about the Thrawn books so I might have to check those out.)

That's why I was optimistic about the Disney era books.  If these books are canon then one would imagine they'd put a gentleman's effort into their quality.  But so far that doesn't appear to be the case. 

Oh yeah? Because that's a pretty attractive argument, "Erase the prequels from your memories; it was only a bad dream!" :ganishka:

 :ganishka:

For the record, my favorite episode was probably the one involving the Jedi kids trying to find those crystals in that cavern so they could build those light sabers. I can't remember much of it though, only that when it ended, I said to myself, "this was fine."

(http://i.imgur.com/MgWSyog.gif)
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi
Post by: Eluvei on May 10, 2017, 07:13:59 PM
I haven't been following the development of TLJ so I'm coming from a place of pure ignorance, but is it wrong of me to take that as a (admittedly very small) sign that this movie might be headed in the right direction?

I take that as a sign that Colin Trevorrow is calling Johnson right now demanding some changes to make sure TLJ doesn't hinder his chances of making a real shitty movie.

(http://i.imgur.com/MgWSyog.gif)

What, that's the wrong episode to enjoy in the critically acclaimed prequel trilogy tie-in cartoon? :iva:
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi
Post by: Griffith on May 10, 2017, 10:35:02 PM
I haven't been following the development of TLJ so I'm coming from a place of pure ignorance, but is it wrong of me to take that as a (admittedly very small) sign that this movie might be headed in the right direction?  While Jar Jar Abrams was yukking it up about wanting to put Jar Jar Bink's skull on Jakku, Rian Johnson was running around making sure TFA didn't hinder his chances of making a great Star Wars film.

It sure doesn't hurt. Though, I really don't like that they moved the scar so dramatically, to the point that it couldn't conceivably have been the result of the wound in the previous movie. I'm fine with them fudging it, but just move it off his nose, not from the bridge to somehow over his eye (which I'm pretty sure would have blinded him in any case =). Also, it's just the most cliche of bad guy scars and far too thin and dainty. I like the head-canon theory that he healed it and then did a cooler scar himself. =)

Based solely on this revelation, I'm calling it now:  TLJ will be the best Star Wars film ever made, leaving ESB in its dust.  :troll:

God I hope that's true. :sad:

No way this can end poorly for you. :slan:

I've always felt like I've been missing out on some great things the EU has produced, but I just can't tolerate the silly side of the EU enough to get to it.  I love the idea of a book that develops Luke and Vader more, but the "anything goes" nature of the EU kills it for me.  (Although everyone raves about the Thrawn books so I might have to check those out.)

The bottom line is, good or bad, it's all disposable.

I take that as a sign that Colin Trevorrow is calling Johnson right now demanding some changes to make sure TLJ doesn't hinder his chances of making a real shitty movie.
What, that's the wrong episode to enjoy in the critically acclaimed prequel trilogy tie-in cartoon? :iva:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X7dFMbubxr4
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi
Post by: Skeleton on May 11, 2017, 04:20:22 AM
I take that as a sign that Colin Trevorrow is calling Johnson right now demanding some changes to make sure TLJ doesn't hinder his chances of making a real shitty movie.

That's who's directing Episode 9?! Well that's. . . uh. . . Fuck.

What, that's the wrong episode to enjoy in the critically acclaimed prequel trilogy tie-in cartoon? :iva:

You can enjoy whatever you want.

It sure doesn't hurt. Though, I really don't like that they moved the scar so dramatically, to the point that it couldn't conceivably have been the result of the wound in the previous movie. I'm fine with them fudging it, but just move it off his nose, not from the bridge to somehow over his eye (which I'm pretty sure would have blinded him in any case =). Also, it's just the most cliche of bad guy scars and far too thin and dainty. I like the head-canon theory that he healed it and then did a cooler scar himself. =)

I just reread my post and realized I didn't clarify what I was talking about. I was talking solely about his R2D2 request.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi
Post by: Griffith on May 11, 2017, 04:26:44 AM
That's who's directing Episode 9?! Well that's. . . uh. . . Fuck.

You didn't know that!? Talk about a spoiler, huh. :carcus:

I just reread my post and realized I didn't clarify what I was talking about. I was talking solely about his R2D2 request.

That's fine, I was jumping off from the general "Johnson seems to know what he's doing" point. I do appreciate that he's boldly returning harmless cosmetic continuity errors to Star Wars, no special edition necessary. =)
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi
Post by: JMP on May 25, 2017, 02:08:17 PM
So far I'm enjoying the Clone Wars series. I'm almost through season 1.

Here's an article about the upcoming movie with some nice pics: http://www.vanityfair.com/hollywood/2017/05/star-wars-the-last-jedi-cover-portfolio (http://www.vanityfair.com/hollywood/2017/05/star-wars-the-last-jedi-cover-portfolio)
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi
Post by: Griffith on May 25, 2017, 04:42:12 PM
Here's an article about the upcoming movie with some nice pics: http://www.vanityfair.com/hollywood/2017/05/star-wars-the-last-jedi-cover-portfolio (http://www.vanityfair.com/hollywood/2017/05/star-wars-the-last-jedi-cover-portfolio)

Some pretty cool shots in there, particularly this, potentially VERY SPOILERIFIC, set photo:

http://media.vanityfair.com/photos/59245798b2306f2287537fcf/master/w_1440,c_limit/star-wars-portfolio-06-2017-ss08.jpg

But I actually dig them all except the "formal" ones and maybe the one of Luke and Rey (not bad, but not particularly good either), otherwise they're all pretty flattering to their subjects. Again, also weird that I'm experiencing Luke Skywalker again almost exclusively through marketing and merchandising.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi
Post by: Hitoshura on October 10, 2017, 01:18:08 AM
New trailer
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q0CbN8sfihY

New poster
(https://i.imgur.com/FCx4USq.jpg)

Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi
Post by: Griffith on October 10, 2017, 02:24:40 AM
Pretty cool, but the whole "raw powah!" thing is a bit overwrought, and of course it spoiled the whole movie. :ganishka:
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi
Post by: Skeleton on October 10, 2017, 03:03:29 AM
I like that they put Carrie Fisher in the center of the poster. A nice gesture.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi
Post by: MiyamotoPuck on October 10, 2017, 11:26:48 AM
It looks better than the previous one in my opinion. We'll see.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi
Post by: Griffith on October 10, 2017, 04:51:48 PM
I like that they put Carrie Fisher in the center of the poster. A nice gesture.

I mean, she is Princess General fucking Leia, and it's not like they gave her the extra large top spot like Luke. =)

It looks better than the previous one in my opinion. We'll see.

Yeah... it's all pretty general in that trailer so I hope there's meat on them bones. It can't live off being a successful revival in itself like the last did with some aplomb. Now it has to stand on its own and I'm not sure this whole raw power/grey Jedi thing is that inherently interesting to me, so we'll have to see what they actually do with it.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi
Post by: ThePiedPiper on November 09, 2017, 01:42:27 AM
Pretty cool, but the whole "raw powah!" thing is a bit overwrought, and of course it spoiled the whole movie. :ganishka:

They spoiled a tiny bit,  but I also look at trailers and assume all the twists they hint at won't happen. Like if the trailer had a bleak Luke Skywalker igniting his lightsaber and saying, "I'm sorry...", then the trailer cuts to a scene of a Jedi with a surprised look on their face in a somewhat comparable location, and then it cuts back to Luke swinging his lightsaber, I guarantee you Luke is not attacking that Jedi  :ganishka:

It varies by context, but I've gotten a bit of an eye for details in trailers in the past few years. It actually does me a disservice because my mind picks up on things I'd rather it not, which is why I haven't really read into this movie's trailer. Because I know I'll end up picking up one one detail and then when it comes time to watch the movie it'll be stuck in my mind and I'll just be waiting for that part to come, reducing my overall enjoyment of the film.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi
Post by: Griffith on December 15, 2017, 06:17:28 AM
It had a few nice ideas and moments, but also some that laughably flopped, and ultimately the payoffs underwhwlmed or disappointed me. I felt like all the charm of the new characters was gone and we were just left with their 1-dimensional selves cosplaying Star Wars like they were trying to avoid. All in all, it didn't really bother me or live up to my expectations of what it could be, I'm just sort of dispassionately ambivalent.

The most potential laid with the Kylo/Luke/Rey connection, specifically that dark recollection of Luke from Kylo's POV; they should have just had Luke go dark side instead of... Lukewarm and uninvolved. I will say, the shot of him walking out and confronting those AT-ATs was the best imagery in the movie and iconically done, but ultimately hollow and another example of just overwrought force powers, like Super Leia (there was actually a little prequel in this one's DNA, not the dopey action so much as dopey recitation of Star Warsy lines). I could go on forever second guessing all this stuff, but eh. Hey, I called Ren killing off Snoke to be Supreme Leader! But he still sucked after. =)
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi
Post by: Nomad on December 15, 2017, 02:50:13 PM
Agreed on all ends with you.  Not sure how I feel about this movie yet.



Yoda was also the big highlight for me.  Loved that his behavior with Luke went unchanged. Followed by the sudden Luke-going-bye bye scene left me salty.  Beautiful way sure.  But still.  Maybe holding onto Luke for almost 40 years have something to do with that lol.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi
Post by: Walter on December 15, 2017, 03:00:25 PM
My expectations have been appropriately leveled  :sad: I'll probably get a chance to see it this weekend, but if not, it'll be another week.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi
Post by: Griffith on December 15, 2017, 03:32:53 PM
Agreed on all ends with you.  Not sure how I feel about this movie yet.

It's not bad, but it doesn't really go anywhere either and pretty much ends where it basically could/should have started (and all the non-Luke/Rey/Kylo stuff, which was a lot of the 2.5 hours, wasn't interesting anyway and could have been chopped way down). I'm not sure what everyone is creaming their pants over. The Empire/middle chapter hype does not apply; what made that movie great is it deepened the characters and their relationships, not so here. I was neither thrilled nor offended by the film overall, "I'm not mad, just disappointed in you." :carcus:

Yoda was also the big highlight for me.  Loved that his behavior with Luke went unchanged. Followed by the sudden Luke-going-bye bye scene left me salty.  Beautiful way sure.  But still.  Maybe holding onto Luke for almost 40 years have something to do with that lol.

The tree scene was a weird moment, it provided the missing irreverent side of Yoda, but to the point of surreal self-satire (like was I watching new Star Wars or Spaceballs?). They basically just admit the force is a bunch of super thin BS they're either just re-recycling old dialogue for or making up as they go along, and that's why anyone can be a Jedi-like person or do anything one minute and nothing the next. So, while I did appreciate the underlying spirit of the scene (the Jedi are BS but that's not what matters), overall I didn't love or think it necessary for Yoda to show up and go all Reverend Lovejoy, "Luke, have you ever read this thing? Technically, we're not allowed to go to bathroom."

As for Luke... it's like they still never did figure out what to do with him. So, they kind of did nothing with him while trying to fulfill all our fan-tasies (bitter and maybe dark, grizzly teacher, Super Saiyan badass, full circle, or if you don't really want any of that, then he never left the couch!), but it amounted to treading water and just putting a cap on 30 years of... nothing. As rote and predictable as it would have been, they'd have been better off just having him show up at Starkiller Base in the third act of the last movie, or this one, since he still never showed up despite the cruel tease of his X-Wing (while we're recycling dialogue and moments and waiting for help, how about, "I'm Luke Skywalker, I'm here to rescue you!" coming in over the radio?). I'm seriously considering how one could edit these two movies together to make a better movie, basically tack fake Luke onto the end of TFA, which, again, are very Prequely thoughts. =)


My expectations have been appropriately leveled  :sad: I'll probably get a chance to see it this weekend, but if not, it'll be another week.

Maybe you'll enjoy it more than I did now. I hated TFA when I first saw it, but then became a convert. I don't think that's going to happen this time because it didn't get me that worked up wither way and I feel like I've already made my peace with it.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi
Post by: Walter on December 15, 2017, 03:37:20 PM
I'm not sure what everyone is creaming their pants over.

Well, I felt the same way over Rogue One. I put off seeing that for a year and I really don't understand the hype.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi
Post by: Griffith on December 15, 2017, 03:47:36 PM
Well, I felt the same way over Rogue One. I put off seeing that for a year and I really don't understand the hype.

It might be better, or more worthwhile for fans, than Last Jedi, honestly! :ganishka: I think that's a trick though, because stuff like TFA and R1 are so steeped in familiar and unmistakable Star Wars iconography we don't reject it as a foreign body outright (this is very Star Warsy!). It may not be as good as the real thing, but at least it was cloned from the same DNA, whereas this one does a lot of familiar shit too, but it also has just enough new and different content to feel... a little off. =) Basically, people hate the continued recycling of the Death Star in principle, but it might be worth the practical "STAAARR WAAAARS" trade off!

BTW, you're a risk-taker quoting me directly where you can see my spoiler-tagged text! I even tried to keep those diplomatic for the most part though, just in case. :griffnotevil:
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi
Post by: Walter on December 15, 2017, 03:48:39 PM
BTW, you're a risk-taker quoting me directly where you can see my spoiler-tagged text! I even tried to keep those diplomatic for the most part though, just in case. :griffnotevil:

Pfffff, spoilers, me?  :ganishka:
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi
Post by: Headless Death on December 15, 2017, 03:51:56 PM
Hoping to be able to see Last Jedi this weekend.  But I don't have high expectations, just hoping it will at least be entertaining.

With Rouge One, I wasn't expecting much considering the entire movie was made based on this sentence from episode IV:
Quote from: Star Wars Episode IV - A New Hope
Rebel spies managed to steal secret plans to the Empireís ultimate weapon, the DEATH STAR, an armored space station with enough power to destroy an entire planet.

But I will give it credit for at least being entertaining.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi
Post by: Griffith on December 15, 2017, 04:15:51 PM
This one is definitely more original than the previous two for better or worse. It kind of reminds me of a proper EU Star Wars story, since that's ultimately what these are, but complicated by the fact they gotta try to live up to the originals and substitute for "flagship" Star Wars movies instead of just being what they are.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi
Post by: Sareth on December 15, 2017, 05:28:08 PM
I never imagined I would be this apathetic about the release of a new Star Wars film. I haven't seen Rogue One and I didn't even bother to watch the trailer for this. I'll see it with my family but I'm not expecting to be any less underwhelmed than I was with Force Awakens.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi
Post by: Salem on December 15, 2017, 06:14:46 PM
Something I find interesting is the user score through RT.  Critically, weíre at 93%.  USER score however is sitting at 58% and dropping.  This, along with the comments Iím reading, has my expectations quite low now. 
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi
Post by: Johnstantine on December 15, 2017, 10:47:52 PM
I enjoyed the movie for what it was. It had some glaring problems Could the dreadnaught chasing the cruiser be any fucking slower? Jesus Christ, come on.

The good:

- The atmosphere was awesome. I felt like they had the same tone as Empire, which is always a plus.
- The visuals were impressive, especially when Holdo hit the deadnaught at light-speed. The whole audience was like "Oh my God". It was awesome.
- Luke standing in front of Kylo and the First Order. Super powerful moment. I only wish they would have had Luke crush one of the AT-ATs with the force like he did in Dark Empire.
- Leia was awesome the entire movie. I think this is the first time I've actually enjoyed her character, actually.
- Kylo killed it. I loved him in this movie. I loved seeing the good in him when he took his thumb off the firing trigger. He still loves his mom. The dude is just the most confused villain in the history of villains. I can't wait for his redemption in Episode 55.
- Hux was cool, even though I hate him. Domnhal Gleason is my man crush, so that's why he's in the good list.
- I felt it ended on a high note. I was afraid they would go full Empire with it and it be a cliffhanger. Glad they decided against it.


The bad:

- The story. The most glaring problem was when Holdo just didn't tell them the plan in the first place. It could have saved Finn and Rose a trip as well as keeping the escape ships safe since DJ never would have said anything.
- The lessons. When Rey immediately goes to the dark side and Luke tells her, it's never revisited. I'm not even sure what the lesson was.
- Did Luke even train Rey, outside of telling her to feel the force?
- Luke's character. I felt like he was all over the place in terms of characterization. He was either serious, funny, or brooding. I still loved him for being on the screen, but old, broken Luke just isn't for me.
- Poe. I have come to the conclusion that I just do not like Poe. At all. All he had was his black X-wing, and now he doesn't even have that.
- Finn. I don't feel like he developed at all from TFA.
- Rey. I think Daisy Ridley is just as confused playing the character as we all are watching her. She's like Luke when he was younger, but just way more naive and dumb.
- Snoke. I don't think he's actually dead. If he is, then I feel like his character was WAY underused and not very menacing.


Aside from the bad, it's still a good movie. I will be seeing it again in theaters for sure=)
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi
Post by: Salem on December 16, 2017, 12:06:37 AM
Want.....to.....press.......spoilers.... :magni:

But really, the fact no one on here is freaking out tells a story.  Sometimes we over react with joy and sometimes we know right away we donít like something.  This just has one big ďeh, itís okĒ written all over it.  Much like the games Iíve played in the last few months (not you, odyssey!) Luke warm is not gonna sit well with my stomach.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi
Post by: Johnstantine on December 16, 2017, 12:43:24 AM
Want.....to.....press.......spoilers.... :magni:

But really, the fact no one on here is freaking out tells a story.  Sometimes we over react with joy and sometimes we know right away we donít like something.  This just has one big ďeh, itís okĒ written all over it.  Much like the games Iíve played in the last few months (not you, odyssey!) Luke warm is not gonna sit well with my stomach.

I think over time, TLJ will be looked upon kindly. Hell, when Empire came out it didnít have a quarter of the praise it has today.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi
Post by: Griffith on December 16, 2017, 01:23:52 AM
I think over time, TLJ will be looked upon kindly.

I could see that, but I could also see it sharing a fate more akin to the other Jedi and its more mixed reputation, or worse... The Prequels! :magni: Time will tell, though.

Quote
Hell, when Empire came out it didnít have a quarter of the praise it has today.

Yeah, but that's because Empire is one of the best sequels ever and that good. As your own observations note TLJ is not and has little in common with Empire to warrant a comparison besides relative sequential order. I'd also quibble with the idea TLJ has any more of an ending than Empire, which has one of the most memorable climaxes and resolutions in film history despite people focusing on it not ending with a literal explosion like its predecessor and most of its successors (that's part if what makes it better). By contrast, TLJ doesn't go anywhere but where it should have started and a goofy feel good non-sequitor that ties into the least essential part of the movie for better or worse (more reason for that part to exist I guess). Give me the weathered mains staring resolutely out a window any day. Miura should end Berserk that way. =)
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi
Post by: JMP on December 16, 2017, 01:49:29 AM
I felt like I watched about 3 movies in one. And not in a good way. There was WAY too much shit going on for my liking. Sometimes less is more and this felt like it was just too cluttered. That being said, there were definitely moments I enjoyed along with some eye-rollers. I think I need to watch it again to see Adam Driver with his shirt offÖ..er I mean view things afresh after I let everything that happened sink in a bit. Not that I can even remember everything that happened. :ganishka: I was a bit tired today, so that may have affected my experience also. I'll give it a second try!
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi
Post by: Proj2501 on December 16, 2017, 05:44:56 AM
Hated it. So, so many lingering questions remain.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi
Post by: Skeleton on December 16, 2017, 08:40:07 AM
This needs to be Episode 9 so the new trilogy can end on a high note. (https://youtu.be/dXlao2KNYjQ)
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi
Post by: Griffith on December 16, 2017, 02:32:17 PM
Hated it. So, so many lingering questions remain.

I didn't even think that many questions were raised, more like questionable stuff resulting in questions like, "what's up with the force?" (That's not how the force works =) Anyway, I was sort of counting on this one to get a new story arc into motion, but it kind of reset us to starting positions yet again.

So, confirmed that Rey is Luke Force Person, Poe is Lea Leader, Finn is lovable Han Scoundrel, and Kylo is Emperor Vader... but we already assumed some combination of this from the beginning, and TFA was the setup to establish these characters and premises. We didn't need a whole other movie that's plot amounted to a simplistic slow speed chase to set it all up again for... the end, or the beginning (it will be interesting to see if and how Abrams incorporates the literal ending of this film into the next)? Snoke and Luke are already gone and they were nothingburgers, so it's really just going to be Rey overcoming Ren on the character arc front, that's the end game here, but we already saw that in TFA (and nobody cares about the First Order and they dropped Resistance for Rebels halfway through this movie). My point is this is a saga without a story. There's no powerful narrative force propelling it along, it's just sort of existing and reassserting its existence.

There are some interesting meta-themes that developed concerning Rey and the Skywalkers though, and no wonder Johnson is doing a non-Skywalker trilogy since he's clearly an anti-Skywalker Star Wars agnostic, but I'm not a fan of where they're going unless Abrams reverses course, "Not so fast."
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi
Post by: Johnstantine on December 16, 2017, 05:36:35 PM

There's no powerful narrative force propelling it along, it's just sort of existing and reassserting its existence.

I've been trying to put my thumb on it, but that about sums up how I feel. Although I'm not entirely disillusioned, I just wish we had more.

Quote

but I'm not a fan of where they're going unless Abrams reverses course, "Not so fast."


Spoiler alert: he won't.

Hopefully we get an animated series that centers around Luke post-RotJ, pre-TFA. Clone Wars and Rebels actually feel like Star Wars. I'd love to see a Luke-centric series, but for whatever the hell reason the franchise continually shits all over using him outside of the movies or books. As opposed to the movies, I have a lot of faith in an ongoing series.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi
Post by: Griffith on December 16, 2017, 08:02:22 PM
I've been trying to put my thumb on it, but that about sums up how I feel. Although I'm not entirely disillusioned, I just wish we had more.

Yeah, it's like they're admitting you can't really come home again, just create inspiring allusions to that effect. If that was intentional I can almost talk myself into it. =)

Quote
Spoiler alert: he won't.

Yeah, the dye is cast, now the force is for all the fans out there that believe in themselves *rainbows* and the only Skywalker left is the villain that must be destroyed! *vomit* This is the equivelant of Time Magazine's person of the year being "YOU!" The anti-Skywalkers win, Star Wars is now about random aliens, spaceships, force gibberish and minutia. Not my cup of Star Wars (because it's not).

Quote
Hopefully we get an animated series that centers around Luke post-RotJ, pre-TFA. Clone Wars and Rebels actually feel like Star Wars. I'd love to see a Luke-centric series, but for whatever the hell reason the franchise continually shits all over using him outside of the movies or books. As opposed to the movies, I have a lot of faith in an ongoing series.

Well, they didn't even really use him in the movies anyway beyond that taunting glimpse of what could have been. Why not just have him really show up like that? I guess we're burning the past,
but very weird choice. All these guys cited Luke as their big inspiration or attraction to the project and then they conpletely punted on the chance (I guess Johnson actually ran a fake touchdown play only to kick a field goal that missed... Yeah, still weird. =)
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi
Post by: Sareth on December 16, 2017, 08:19:01 PM
I read some spoilers on Reddit that I thought at first were jokes... good thing I didn't have any hope that this trilogy would get better  :schierke:
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi
Post by: JMP on December 16, 2017, 09:45:21 PM
Yeah, it's like they're admitting you can't really come home again, just create inspiring allusions to that effect.
That's for sure. For me so far, this new set of films just can't even touch the original trilogy for connection with and believability of characters, the sense of spontaneity and naturalness in the humor, interactions, and plot, and just plain good story telling. For all the money they're throwing at this it just hasn't got the heart and soul those first films possessed. I felt like The Force Awakens set it up with some good potential, but The Last Jedi just didn't do it for me. I really wanted to love it, but a lot of it felt fakey, forced, and therefore flat. There was a lot of junk thrown in there, but little of satisfying substance. I hope Abrams can salvage something decent out of the 3rd installment. I think the acting talent and capacity is there if they would just write a story that would use it effectively. Cut out the junk food overload and get to the meat and taters! :ganishka:

This needs to be Episode 9 so the new trilogy can end on a high note. (https://youtu.be/dXlao2KNYjQ)
Now that's funny! :ganishka:
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi
Post by: ThePiedPiper on December 17, 2017, 01:26:17 AM
Should I go in with any expectation with Luke? I only care about him, Ben (Kylo Ren), and Leia. Nothing about 'VII' makes me excited to watch another Star Wars movie, and I'm pretty sad about that as a long time fan
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi
Post by: Griffith on December 17, 2017, 05:06:27 AM
I read some spoilers on Reddit that I thought at first were jokes...

Oh man, some of that stuff would sound so much worse in print.  :ganishka:

I felt like The Force Awakens set it up with some good potential, but The Last Jedi just didn't do it for me. I really wanted to love it, but a lot of it felt fakey, forced, and therefore flat. There was a lot of junk thrown in there, but little of satisfying substance. I hope Abrams can salvage something decent out of the 3rd installment. I think the acting talent and capacity is there if they would just write a story that would use it effectively.

What's funny is I ultimately came away with the same feeling: maybe JJ can salvage this, he gets it! That's pretty funny since Rian Johnson was that last hope before he wasn't. =) I don't think it's meant to be, or TFA is the closest thing to it; that was a pretty impressively jam packed yet fast paced action adventure movie with likable characters, Star Wars or not (also co-written by Kasdan and Michael Arndt). If TLJ wasn't Star Wars on the other hand, I'd find little of it independently compellingly (I sure didn't while watching). Though, it might even be more about Star Wars than TFA was, to the point the nuts and bolts of the plot seem secondary and pointless. I'm trying to decide if it was Rian's intention to make some meta Star Wars deconstruction, a lens which makes the movie sort of work, but the rest is so straightforward that's giving him a lot of credit.

Should I go in with any expectation with Luke?

Nope, and that was the main attraction for me too. Like I said, the fanfic everyone had in their head, including the screenwriters, of him showing up to save the day in the third act of TFA would have been a much more fitting return (but I actually think what they did was better, TLJ just doesn't pay it off properly). Still, it's Luke Skywalker! And they do some interesting things with him regardless, just not what I (or anyone?) hoped. It's like they want him to be bigger than life but then don't know how to reintergrate him into the regular action of Star Wars; like every scene with Luke has to be about "Luke!" and to treat him otherwise is some sort of blasphemy (but he ends up being worse as a result). I think they talked about this making TFA and why they kept pushing his reveal back from the first act to the third to ultimately right out of the movie basically. They would have been better off just ripping off the Band-Aid and sticking him in there so they could move forward with him as a regular character again quicker.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi
Post by: Salem on December 18, 2017, 12:09:49 AM
Thatís it?  Really the only response I have.  Struggling with the ideas presented that honestly just felt inconsequential and not meaningful.  Iíll give it time, but honestly Iím not wanting to analyze it more with a second viewing like most previous entries.  That resonates sadness as a long time fan watching the ot on a loop as a young child.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi
Post by: Walter on December 18, 2017, 01:05:57 AM
You guys are really killin the mood for the date night I have planned  :judo:
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi
Post by: Griffith on December 18, 2017, 02:29:57 AM
You guys are really killin the mood for the date night I have planned  :judo:

Cancel the hotel room and send the babysitter home early! :ganishka:
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi
Post by: Grail on December 18, 2017, 02:57:03 AM
Dang, guys! I went to the see this with a few friends today, and the party was split about the experience. I see that Twitter is very much the same case, but I'm getting the feeling that the opinions in this thread are leaning more towards the negative. :slan:

I'm going to go ahead and say that I liked this movie more than the Force Awakens. I liked that it was too damn long, and that it made Luke sad and bitter, and that Yoda is a wrinkly little puppet again. I loved that Snoke got offed so unexpectedly and unceremoniously, and that Rey is not the daughter, granddaugher or niece of anybody notable. I did even enjoy the casino plot, Rose, the goofy comedy, the storyline juggling, and the damn porgs (https://youtu.be/2lCW-iaOZ_M?t=49).

I think what pleased me the very most about this movie is that it's begun deconstructing and steering away from the ever-looming Skywalker legacy. Back before TFA was announced, one thing that turned me off about the extended universe was its obsessive need to legitimize itself by connecting back to Anakin or Luke, in some sort of space-faring variation of 6 Degrees of Kevin Bacon. Now that the Skywalkers are dying off (Griff, as you pointed out, the lone inheritor of the Skywalker bloodline is the bad guy now), the Reys, the Finns, the Roses are the new heroes of Star Wars. I thought that the sentiment was put beautifully by Kylo Ren as he said to Rey, "You're nothing - but not to me." To me, I feel like Johnson is saying: the Skywalkers have played their part, but Star Wars cannot be the story of the Skywalkers alone. Star Wars is a story about nobodies saving the galaxy, and to have TLJ double down on that idea was deeply satisfying to me.


I do understand that a lot of people are responding to this movie as life-long Star Wars fans. I came into the franchise later in life, and I'm not partial to picking out little niggling details, nor am I disappointed by it not "feeling(?)" like a Star Wars film so I think that may have played a part in my enjoyment of it. It's hard to explain. It just felt good coming out of this movie.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi
Post by: Griffith on December 18, 2017, 03:49:20 AM
It's nice to see someone objectively singing its praises actually, because it's not like it's awful or I even felt that bad coming out either. I was just ultimately disappointed for specific reasons that don't apply to you and think they could have been handled differently, and better, without invalidating what you took away from the movie.

Star Wars cannot be the story of the Skywalkers alone. Star Wars is a story about nobodies saving the galaxy

The first part is true, but the second part most certainly is debatable considering that every movie until recently WAS about the Skywalkers. My quibble is that while they don't have to keep forcing Skywalkers into the main role forever until you're stuck watching Luke's father's brother's sister's cousin's former roomate blowing up Death Star 7, when you've got got Mark fucking Hamill on set reprising the role of Luke Skywalker, the original galaxy saving hero of Star Wars, after 35 years, you might want to DO SOMETHING WITH HIM!!1! :mozgus:

Plenty of time to figure out Star Wars without him later. :griffnotevil: They spent three movies largely doing so alteady, but it's a bit like doing Indiana Jones without Harrison Ford to me. What's the point? Would you rather watch Shia LaBeouf?


Also, gotta disagree on how the rest of the time was spent, because doing Luke and the new kids justice didn't have to be mutually exclusive, much like with Han, where the experience for both was enhanced by their interactions. I felt like not only did Luke get short shrift save for the most base of fan service, but Rey, Finn et al were surprisingly flat as well (and Rose's backstory was a cheap prop trick seen in a million bad movies). And revealing Snoke was a waste of time and keeping Ren a wiener afterward didn't help (and that lightsaber battle was like a Power Rangers fight right down to the sets and costumes, no? =) *ZZZRTT* Ah, my shock therapy kicked back in, I'm ok now. I guess it's fine but other than being "Star Wars" was this that great a movie? It's kind of the quandary, trying to do something new and good but so beholden to old Star Wars references ("durrr, may the force be with you, everybody!"), which may be the yoke from which Rian is freeing the series, but prematurely IMO. Just seems like a bit of a letdown to me that nobody could do this justice before moving on completely, and what we're moving onto is setup to be nothing special either. Basically, they're trying to make a nostalgia act young and hip but with the same gravitas, and as an old Star Wars head I'm not convinced, and wonder if the young, hip people are either.


Quote
It's hard to explain. It just felt good coming out of this movie.

It had an emotionally manipulative ending to give the audience a cheap release of dopamine. The next movie will just have pictures of puppies and babies holding Yoda plushies during the credits. Nu-Star Wars is for everybody and the whole family! =)
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi
Post by: ThePiedPiper on December 18, 2017, 10:56:30 AM
Nope, and that was the main attraction for me too. Like I said, the fanfic everyone had in their head, including the screenwriters, of him showing up to save the day in the third act of TFA would have been a much more fitting return (but I actually think what they did was better, TLJ just doesn't pay it off properly).

I do remember hearing people 2 years ago wishing Luke did 'save the day', or at least come in right after that one death. I don't think I wanted anything to happen in particular besides having all of the old characters involved.

I'll never forget the moment I saw the opening crawl, and the words "LUKE SKYWALKER", because it was hard to believe that the movie was really happening. That I was watching a new movie with Luke in it taking place after the events of VI. The rush did nothing to convince me I was not dreaming :rickert:

I think they talked about this making TFA and why they kept pushing his reveal back from the first act to the third to ultimately right out of the movie basically. They would have been better off just ripping off the Band-Aid and sticking him in there so they could move forward with him as a regular character again quicker.

Agreed. If this was a different film series, I wouldn't care. In fact, I'd even say the movie was decent. But I hold every bit of SW content to a high standard. It doesn't always have to be legendary in quality, but it needs to use the old characters responsibly.

I was expecting (or rather, wanted) a simple setup for the plot, perhaps even run-of-the-mill --so long as there was some substance in every part of the formula. No matter what the details were, or what form the quest or conflict took, I wanted the movie to be of a pace that not only rewarded with its climax, but with every step of the way. And that is what many arguments for VII fail to address.

Needless to say, Episode 7 wasn't a predictable film. I certainly wasn't expecting a Death Star III --which was what, Death Star multiplied by the power of Death Star?! If I would have copied anything from previous movies, it would not have been that... :schierke: and the Luke jokes that arose after Episode 7 really spoke to how much they squandered having Mark Hamill on deck (Missing: Grandpa, Last Seen: Walking his pet rock) seriously, none of the jokes were even funny...
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi
Post by: MrFlibble on December 18, 2017, 03:43:31 PM
I feel mixed feelings towards this one, though I like it for being a lot more original than TFA, I have to admit some of it left a bad taste in my mouth. There were several characters who were ruined in this film. namely Luke and Yoda, Luke going from his journey in the OT to being a cranky jaded old man just seemed wrong to me, it would be as if in the far future there was a Berserk sequel where Guts was a cowardly old man, and the wise sage like Yoda who once berated Luke for his impatience, never read the Jedi texts?, not buying it

TLJ, for a film that was being marketed as dark and foreboding, had way too much humour Gone are the days where the audience were disturbed by a sith lord so ruthless he killed his own subordinates for their incompetence. Now they get to bust a gut as giant angry holo Snoke literally wipes the floor with General Hux

By in large the films characters made a lot of really poor decisions, Poe's bravado costs the resistance all of their bomber class ships (which incidentally are far more cumbersome and large than the bomber class fighters they piloted 30 years ago) , all so he can destroy one dreadnought, presumably of many. The first order impotently shoots at resistance freighters without ever considering cutting of their escape route by surrounding them, or destroying the rebel base of Krait using their remaining star destroyers, rather than using a ground force assault, Finns love interest, in an act of self sacrifice, prevents Finn from destroying a battering ram cannon, vital to the First Order's plans. Finn and co, on a mission to recruit a code breaker, instead choose to recruit a shady guy whom they never met, who ends up betraying them in the end anyway.
 
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi
Post by: Salem on December 18, 2017, 04:00:15 PM
After sleeping on this Iím quite a bit more negative.  J.J. brought up interesting ideas and Rian has no love for them.  I think this is the problem at its core.  Where both trilogies originally were Lucas, both good and bad, we have no real direction worth talking about.  Itís happening for the sake of happening.  Two visions colliding in the middle of the story. 
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi
Post by: Griffith on December 18, 2017, 04:52:40 PM
There were several characters who were ruined in this film. namely Luke and Yoda

Yeah, those are some important ones! Though Yoda was pretty well ruined already, to the point this was almost a welcome 180 even though it was a bit too irreverent even for his pre-reveal Dagobah self.

TLJ, for a film that was being marketed as dark and foreboding, had way too much humour Gone are the days where the audience were disturbed by a sith lord so ruthless he killed his own subordinates for their incompetence. Now they get to bust a gut as giant angry holo Snoke literally wipes the floor with General Hux

I didn't mind the humor, but yeah, there's no scary villain in this movie, and they had the potential for at least two or three here. The best moment was the glimpse of "Dark Luke", so if you're going to piss on tradition, go ALL THE WAY and turn Luke to the dark side, not as a cheesy Emperor wannabe, but truly a new Vader, a good man that's seen too much shit and gone bad trying to restore order to the galaxy, and now he's doing it by any means necessary (there's your fuck you to the Jedi tradition, not this weak, aspirational feel good shit =). We know for a fact Mark Hamill is up to it. There we're a lot of potentially great ways to pull this off too. Oh well, we got one last glimpse of Jedi-vision or whatever at least lol

By in large the films characters made a lot of really poor decisions, Poe's bravado costs the resistance all of their bomber class ships (which incidentally are far more cumbersome and large than the bomber class fighters they piloted 30 years ago) , all so he can destroy one dreadnought, presumably of many. The first order impotently shoots at resistance freighters without ever considering cutting of their escape route by surrounding them, or destroying the rebel base of Krait using their remaining star destroyers, rather than using a ground force assault, Finns love interest, in an act of self sacrifice, prevents Finn from destroying a battering ram cannon, vital to the First Order's plans. Finn and co, on a mission to recruit a code breaker, instead choose to recruit a shady guy whom they never met, who ends up betraying them in the end anyway.

And many more, on a practical level the movie made absolutely no sense. Why do mutineers always get put in charge after their mutinies are thwarted in movies? They're usually imprisoned or executed, but certainly removed from the chain of command! It'd be like if you cheated on your spouse and after being found out they let your side piece move in and you're now considered a DOUBLY great partner, only less realistic.

After sleeping on this Iím quite a bit more negative.  J.J. brought up interesting ideas and Rian has no love for them.  I think this is the problem at its core.  Where both trilogies originally were Lucas, both good and bad, we have no real direction worth talking about.  Itís happening for the sake of happening.  Two visions colliding in the middle of the story. 

It's interesting because it really is two competing visions of how to do a modern Star Wars revival, with Abram's representing traditionalism and Johnson a not-quite radical break into freer territory. Frankly, the only way this movie makes sense to me is as an allegory for this argument and a deconstruction of the modern state of Star Wars itself, and a case for the "necessary" rejection of traditionalism. You can see that theme through almost every subplot of the film, old Star Wars tropes and traditions being subverted in favor of a new way that may not be altogether satisfying to old fans at the moment but is arguably inevitable (the alternative being floating along on fumes as long as you can until you run out of fuel =). Now, considering reports that this was all done independently by each film's respective writers and directors, it's interesting that JJ now has the pen back in his hands and COULD reverse course if he sees fit. Rian Johnson acknowledges as much, but considering how strongly he laid the groundwork for his way... man, what reversal that would be now, and it'll be a traditionalist ultimately making the call, albeit with a gun to his head (I agree with Johnstantine, by JJ's nature he ain't rocking the boat unless he's truly pissed Johnson flushed his and the remnants of George's vision completely down the toilet). Part of me hopes Darth Lucas calls JJ on his personal line, "You KNOW what you have to do, my apprentice!" :daiba: :ganishka:
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi
Post by: Salem on December 18, 2017, 05:22:58 PM
Hahaha, strange as it sounds I wouldnít put it past him.  Thatís the most trying part of enjoying this ride.  Knowing J.J. is back in episode IX.  What was the point in switching writers only to throw him back in?  I feel the story is already damaged and perhaps going in the original direction, going backwards were something in his mind, will prove a little cheap.  Surprise, super Snoke is Dr Manhattan! 

If Rian had been given a blank slate, something to retool the series, I only wish that scenario been done from the beginning.  Or perhaps J.J. had nothing in mind, only good starting points.  Looking at you Lost.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi
Post by: Griffith on December 18, 2017, 05:30:59 PM
Hahaha, strange as it sounds I wouldnít put it past him.  Thatís the most trying part of enjoying this ride.  Knowing J.J. is back in episode IX.  What was the point in switching writers only to throw him back in?  I feel the story is already damaged and perhaps going in the original direction, going backwards were something in his mind, will prove a little cheap.  Surprise, super Snoke is Dr Manhattan! 

If Rian had been given a blank slate, something to retool the series, I only wish that scenario been done from the beginning.  Or perhaps J.J. had nothing in mind, only good starting points.  Looking at you Lost.

Yeah, giving it back to a chameleon like JJ now is almost the worst decision they could make, unless Johnson did him a favor freeing his hands while leaving them bloodless. Well... that's not entirely true, JJ could have laid all the groundwork in concrete himself if he wanted (and they almost did in several cases), but chose not to for whatever reason (Mystery! *THUD* LOST), so he sort of abdicated his responsibilities to the story there unless he truly wanted to leave it open for the next team. Nevertheless, if he reverse-reverses course after the events of this film, it wouldn't be any more jarring or gimmicky than all the foreshadowing in TFA that's been left moot, other than this is the direction they need to eventually go anyway and now it's done (and Daisy Ridley doesn't want to play Rey anymore after IX anyway). I mean, this was a vision based on a lie perpetrated by an evil dark lord, so who knows? Kylo was lying or tricked too, etc whatever. That ending pretty well salted the earth though, so you either gotta go with it now or give it big WELL, FUCK YOU TOO back! Like you say though, it's going to be a bit weird and uneven in either case now, but at least holding course has some linear continuity and inertia going for it.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi
Post by: IncantatioN on December 18, 2017, 06:01:16 PM
Watched it Saturday night and I let it sink in a bit. Walking out of the theater I wasn't sure I liked it and it started to mess with me. The crowd I went with liked the movie. Why didn't I like it ... I liked the visuals of X or Y or Z happenings and I loved some of character A or certain conversations but why couldn't I say I liked it. I went in with low expectations but they weren't low enough.

I agree with most of what's posted in the thread so far. The humor I thought was something you'd watch on an SNL skit or a Tonight Show airing that's leading up to the film's release. Unbearable to be honest.

I think the screen time Kylo got definitely helped and I actually liked his character this time around compared to TFW. Poe was his usual bold, high risk self which made sense or was consistent with the first one. Wasn't sold on Finn and his motive for self sacrifice at the end. After Chewy drops off Rey to Kylo + Snoke, I don't recall seeing the Falcon helping the Resistance in its fight against the battle ships ... or did I miss something there? Snoke's penultimate scene was a disappointment.

Also, a question for people who read the book - can the jedi or sith project themselves like the way Luke does in the end? Or is that a new concept? If one is excessively powerful, Yoda could've done the same and been available for those key battles in Episodes II. And, Kylo & Rey's conversations, while they were a good plot device to explore both characters, I wasn't sure how they did it. Snoke admitted he had a role to play in it, but they could still see each other after he was killed.


When TFW came out, I thought it was weak and had everything going to appease fans of the franchise. This one takes it somewhere else and I'll give it a year to re-watch it to see how it holds up or this coming weekend if I'm dragged to see it.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi
Post by: Headless Death on December 18, 2017, 08:06:43 PM
I enjoyed the movie as entertaining as long as I didn't think about the story too much.

The Porgs were cute, and I felt they fit in well considering the were made to hide the Puffin's that kept getting into the shots while they were filming

I liked the aspect of Rey not coming from any noteworthy Jedi Line, this was a reason I was always rooting foolishly for Finn to be force sensitive and to be a Jedi of average power.  I wanted there to be Jedi that did not revolve around the Skywalker bloodline, and the Rey revelation does that.  But now I feel like Finn's character doesn't really have any significance, his part in this movie felt useless.  His Casino Side quest overall became useless to the story, he didn't really have any character building.  He goes from "I can't save everyone, but I can make sure Rey doesn't die." to "I must sacrifice myself for these people that I was going to let die earlier in this movie." :schierke:

That may not have been so bad on its own except that I figure Rose has the exact opposite progression, from "You're selfish for trying to save someone you care about." to "Everyone can just die, as long as the person I care about doesn't die yet."  Although I felt Rose's whole character was sloppy.  Not to mention that they have DJ who I suppose is supposed to invoke some Lando-like feelings of betrayal, when he pretty much explains point blank ahead of time that his actions are done solely based on transactions.  The only surprise was that he behaved like he said he would.  But enough complaining about the casino plotline.

With the Poe Dreadnaught fight, I felt like even if Poe was gung-Ho about downing a Dreadnaught, he would at least think somewhat strategically if he is expected to be any kind of tactical leader.  I do not understand the reasoning of sacrificing most of your fleet to down one ship that they have more of.  It could be understandable if it was Snoke's ship or a main target, but this seems like loosing most of your chess pieces to take out one of your opponent's knights in chess. 

At this point I almost feel they should have let Leia die when the bridge was destroyed,  her Jedi Space flight just felt out of place. Or have had her do the light speed explosion instead of Holdo, so they don't have to have her death be an off screen occurrence for the next movie.  Although they had more filmed for her in this movie than I was expecting, so maybe they still have something filmed for the next movie.

I had hoped for more for Luke, although the one man against an army visual was awesome, I felt like they wasted a lot of opportunity for his character.  But that was an overall issue with the movie is that they didn't explore much in character depth, and Luke was at least one of the few that actually got some look into his character complexity, the other was Kylo.  Kylo Continued on with his good/evil conflict, which at the same time seemed to be the same as Luke's struggle to a degree.  Rey unfortunately didn't really grow much as a character, she may have gotten something from the lesson that Luke gave her, but it wasn't really explored.

Towards the end I got the feeling that they were trying to get Poe and Rey together, but it would seem forced considering it was their first time meeting each other.  But I also felt that the Finn and Rose thing felt forced too.  So far that leaves the Finn/Poe bromance as the one that felt as natural as the Luke/Han one from the original.  At this point it just doesn't look to be getting any sort of naturally developing love story like Han/Leia, or attempted to be natural like Padme/Anakin, and instead will likely get one slapped together at the end.

Overall I would still give the movie a C+, but I will need to reevaluate it once the last installment comes out to see how well it ties the movies together.  On it's own, it had too many threads that didn't tie together well.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi
Post by: Delta Phi on December 18, 2017, 09:21:43 PM
I've not come out of a Star Wars movie feeling so conflicted, even after Attack of the Clones. :troll: I don't want to rely on the old cliche and say that this didn't "feel" like a Star Wars movie, but I certainly walked out not feeling right about it. At the end of the night, the only thing that TLJ did was remind me how much I'd like to rewatch the original trilogy, which is honestly not something any of the other movies have done.

I think one of my biggest issues with the movie is the direction Johnson took with Luke and Kylo's back story. Are we really expected to believe that Luke, the guy that goes walking solo into the jaws of the enemy just so that he might have a chance at appealing to and turning the most evil villain in the galaxy to the light (and was successful), would actually draw his saber on his own adolescent nephew? I know Luke says it was a fleeting moment that he decided against, but the guy has the lightsaber on guys. This whole scenario just felt wrong.

I realize Starkiller Base nuked all of the major Republic planets in the last film, but did I miss something? Wasn't the Republic restored? Wasn't the First Order a growing fringe group? How did the Resistance dwindle so rapidly to a few thousand (and now only a couple hundred). I thought this was a galaxy, not a solar system! Am I just misremembering what TFA established (it has been 2 years since I saw it)?

I'm also highly disappointed with Phasma (again) and the Knights of Ren (or lack thereof). These were things that were hyped before TFA and now have been seemingly completely neutered. I have to believe that Phasma is still alive and she'll finally have her redeeming moment in IX. Otherwise she really is the Boba Fett of this trilogy. That fight and her send off where absolutely pathetic. And where the hell are the Knights of Ren? Who are they? Why doesn't Kylo keep in contact with them? Were they all force sensitive? Did Snoke organize them? Why where they even created if Kylo Ren is just going to be a megalomaniac? Maybe we'll finally find out in "The Knights of Ren: A Star Wars Story" coming 2024!
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi
Post by: JMP on December 18, 2017, 10:29:14 PM
After seeing it a second time I did like it more. I feel better about it. Not great, but better. I think my least favorite part was the casino escapade with the giant space donkeys. That felt unnecessary. I did like how they handled the bond between Kylo and Rey. That was interesting. I also liked the part where Snoke is killed and the subsequent battle, even though I didn't really feel it made complete sense that Rey could hold her own against those supposedly highly trained guards with as little training as she's had in....anything really. She must be some kind of a force/fighting genius I guess.  :???: I didn't like what they did with Luke for the most part. As others have mentioned I didn't feel like him seriously considering killing Ben rang true for his character and also then going into seclusion with no attempt to right things that had gone wrong and completely abandoning his only living relatives and close friends didn't feel like something he would do either. His end was strange to me, but I was ok with it. I guess projecting yourself takes a big tole on a Jedi! When Kylo was talking to Rey earlier in the film he mentioned that it couldn't be Rey connecting them because the effort would kill her, well I guess it killed Luke. Another thing others mentioned as well that I had a problem with was why Holdo didn't just tell Poe about her plan. Also I was not a fan of the Leia flying through space thing. I am ok with Rey coming from "nobody". Although I have my doubts about whether that's true or not. There's still a lot of stuff I felt was not handled well in this movie, but at least I no longer have the strong desire to drop kick a porg. :ganishka:

Towards the end I got the feeling that they were trying to get Poe and Rey together, but it would seem forced considering it was their first time meeting each other.  But I also felt that the Finn and Rose thing felt forced too.  So far that leaves the Finn/Poe bromance as the one that felt as natural as the Luke/Han one from the original.  At this point it just doesn't look to be getting any sort of naturally developing love story like Han/Leia, or attempted to be natural like Padme/Anakin, and instead will likely get one slapped together at the end.
Finn and Rose felt forced to me also. It seems like they are setting that up as a thing for sure, at least Rose obviously likes him. I like Rey and Finn together myself and they seem to really care a lot about each other, although it may be a platonic thing? But I feel like it could be more. The most romantic tension in this movie seemed to be between Kylo and Rey, but then that went nowhere since neither were willing to switch sides.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi
Post by: Johnstantine on December 19, 2017, 04:16:36 AM
Second viewing made me enjoy it more. I think the first viewing was ruined by audience participation.

My original thoughts still stand, but it was definitely better the second time around=)
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi
Post by: ThePiedPiper on December 20, 2017, 06:30:52 AM
I didn't really feel it made complete sense that Rey could hold her own against those supposedly highly trained guards with as little training as she's had in....anything really. She must be some kind of a force/fighting genius I guess.  :???:

Yeah doncha know, The Force allows you to do anything and everything apparently, it's the plot device to rule over all plot devices. Watch out 'nano-machines', The Force is on your six!  :troll:

Quote
I didn't like what they did with Luke for the most part. As others have mentioned I didn't feel like him seriously considering killing Ben rang true for his character and also then going into seclusion with no attempt to right things that had gone wrong and completely abandoning his only living relatives and close friends didn't feel like something he would do either.

Yeah, they completely dropped the ball with this trilogy.

It seems the whole purpose of the trilogy is Kylo Ren and his salvation/damnation with Rey serving as the key to move him to and fro. Sure we have Poe and Leia, but everything with the First Order and Resistance is just going through the motions because the movies require a large conflict. I just think it's silly to go through all this trouble just for one character, when there could have been so much more to the trilogy. Man, I thought they squandered Mark Hamill before I saw this movie...
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi
Post by: Griffith on December 20, 2017, 02:46:37 PM
I don't think I've been in such agreement with a movie thread, pretty much every criticism I've read here has been spot on, and even if one likes the subversion or deconstruction of Star Wars tropes and what it really means to make new Star Wars movies... that in itself does not a good movie make, like many are acting (and are largely the same folks that also loved TFA before they didn't like it anymore). A lot of the positive reviews out there, save for those in the vein of Grail's, have been "This movie is great because it does insert allegedly subversive thing here!" Ignoring whether that's even intentional or true, along with things like plot, pace, structure, character, continuity, thematic resonance, etc etc. It's just as goofy a reason to like the movie as fanboys hating it for ruining your childhood or whatever (c'mon, it was ruined at least 3 times already by now =). It's also a strange basis by which to judge anything, the ever-confusing to me, "This is insert thing for people who don't like insert thing!" Even though I didn't take this movie that way and wasn't offended by it, what's ever the point of that?

Anyway, I just thought the movie was kind of messy and mediocre, nothing really happened and it didn't payoff or elevate old or new Star Wars for me. But it also had some cool moments and dialogue and there's a very strong thematic interpretation and discussion of it to be had, which makes it thought-provoking and interesting, but not necessarily a good Star Wars movie (it works better as a sort of outside, independent film or satire), or even a good movie as it's otherwise just as dependent on the anemic Star Wars movie mythos as TFA or any of the post-Jedi movies, doesn't do anything particularly revelatory on its own merits (taken on its face, it's actually horribly cheesy, sentimental and clichť-ridden), and leaves the series no different or better off than how it found it. Change the names and make this Valerian or something and I don't think anybody calls it great.

Finally, if I may put my bitter fan hat back on a moment (though I've talked to people way more upset about this), Rian Johnson did misfire on Luke Skywalker, a guy who randomly came home one afternoon to find his parents burnt to a crisp by the government and responded by idealistically saving the galaxy, was told he and that galaxy would perish if he went to save his friends from certain doom and did anyway, and found out his biological father was the second worst person in the same galaxy and responded by redeeming his soul. Sometimes he'd whine about it, but that clearly wasn't his most notable character trait considering all the above. So, Luke Skywalker wasn't going to kill his nephew and get all butthurt when his school burnt down, pretty sure he'd handle it. Also, as an old man, he'd be the coolest and most supportive ex-hippie teacher you ever had and would totally get a kick out of training a force prodigy, "You're doing it!":ganishka: That's where the optimistic cheese should have come in, not Rose's, "Let's let everybody die for love or the animals or something" (GREAT BS-subverting movie! =).
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi
Post by: ThePiedPiper on December 20, 2017, 04:58:19 PM
Yeah, with regards to the animal rights, post-modernism, and feminism, I'm not quite sure how we got to this point. That we have to taint a series such as this by injecting American politics into it, and not even having the decency of veiling it with clear/tangible benefits to the narrative. And as for the post-modernism toward the Jedi religion, I think the fact it's a thing is silly. I'm on the verge of excommunicating the trilogy from my head-canon :mozgus: I generally reject most of what comes out of the Expanded Universe, but I'd swap in a hell of a lot of things from it if I could at least enjoy some semblance of immersion. Rose is the absolute worst character. I can overlook how quirky she acts and speaks, but she went overboard with what you and others have said. When she told Finn that we must "save who we love", there was an audible reaction from the audience. Because as she's trying to make the case for defending those we care about, the blast door is getting blasted open, rendering all of our heroes exposed and defenseless. And of course props to Finn the janitor for taking on Chrome-dome, who I originally thought would have been insane in a fight. I guess not...

That said, I think there was decent writing in quite a few places. And I loved every interaction with Ben and Rey, even if The Force nearly lost all of its nuance when they were able to touch one another. And I mean the times they influenced/touched each other BEFORE they actually touched hands --that was just incredible. Kylo Ren/Ben is still the most interesting character, as I'm heavily conflicted with Rey. And I think I like Poe even more now.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi
Post by: Skeleton on December 21, 2017, 09:14:15 AM
I was planning on waiting for the blu-ray release to see this one, given the bad reviews, but the estimated release date is June 19th(!) so I watched it tonight. And I have to be honest here... Best decision of my life. I absolutely fucking loved it. TFA was a solid but average good film, the embodiment of a 5 out of 10. But TLJ was pure fucking gold. I could go on and on about all the details I liked, but it hit me why I was hooked in by this film as it was winding down in its last few minutes: The movie filled me with that genuine sense of adventure. I hadnít felt that way since my first viewing of A New Hope. Shit, I donít even know if Iíve felt that way since I was a kid.

The one thing I really didnít like was when Rose passed out. That was some Prequel Trilogy level bad acting. And I mean that literally. Padmeís double did the exact same thing in Attack of the Clones when she died. And this is terrible of me, but I was kind of hoping she had died, lol. Rose, I mean. Not the double. Who did die.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi
Post by: Griffith on December 21, 2017, 04:52:51 PM
Well, here's someone with an unabashedly positive review! A few things...

I was planning on waiting for the blu-ray release to see this one, given the bad reviews, but the estimated release date is June 19th(!) so I watched it tonight. And I have to be honest here... Best decision of my life. I absolutely fucking loved it.

I'm going to question whether this was honestly the best decision of you life, but I believe you loved it. =)

TFA was a solid but average good film, the embodiment of a 5 out of 10. But TLJ was pure fucking gold.

5 out of 10? Wow, again, I know you're speaking generally, like it's an alright movie, but I'm not sure how 5 out of 10 objectively jibes with the generally underwhelming to shitty movie population versus TFA, or Last Jedi presumably being twice as good (I'm guessing your rating is a 10 atm). I guess I use more of a school rating where "average good" is more in 70%+ range and anything below that is getting progressively more fatally flawed in numerous ways.

I could go on and on about all the details I liked, but it hit me why I was hooked in by this film as it was winding down in its last few minutes: The movie filled me with that genuine sense of adventure. I hadnít felt that way since my first viewing of A New Hope. Shit, I donít even know if Iíve felt that way since I was a kid.

Well, I wouldn't mind you showing your work here though because that's pretty high praise! I mean, the movie is non-stop action (or motion depending on you POV), but so are a lot of movies, the prequels and TFA included, so what made this one stand out to you in such a positive way? What makes it more authentic and genuinely magical? It is full of ideas, but what made them hit home for you in such dramatic fashion versus, say, the sports bar in Attack of the Clones?


On another topic, I think I know why so many fans are upset with this movie whether you liked its choices or, especially, not: because unlike TFA they were very definitive choices and Johnson made it so there's really no going back, so if you didn't like what they did, you're stuck with it because JJ can't just back the truck up now or stay in place, keeping the series, and our childhood's, in relative status. He and we have to move on now one way or another, which is both an admirable and sobering move depending on who you are. Basically we're never going to get that last Luke Skywalker-centric movie, even in the main "Skywalker Saga" canon, which has also been ended "prematurely" and reveals the truth that these movies really aren't any different than Rogue One, or worse are something random and alien altogether, and if you hated what they did with Luke here there's also (almost*) no hope that JJ or anyone is going to come back and give us that loveletter to the character many of us wanted and instead it's confirmed we'll NEVER get (which, kind of a dick move; it'd be like if Luke had a heart attack at the end of TFA or was already dead, "Oh, you guys might have wanted to do something else with him? Why!? *I* wanted to write his crappy death scene." At least it wasn't as bad as Captain Kirk's =). This is either a reality check, or... not how it had to be. I pretty strongly believe the latter no matter how much you like the events of TLJ beside that point.

*Unless he becomes a Qui-Gon esque super ghost, a possibility actually bolstered by his powers in this movie, or they bring back TFA's own silly Luuuke hand clone subplot! Now talk about a FUCK YOU back concerning moving on, "Let the past live, clone it if you have to." =)


Also, check out the Red Letter Media review to see this in action. If you know what to expect from those guys, it basically starts that way and pretty neutrally critical, but by the end you can tell they're genuinely, and surprisingly given their usual cynicism, depressed. I would totally buy this fan phenomenon as both an indicator the movie might have really screwed up Star Wars or is brilliant (the problem with the latter being I don't think it's that good as a straightforward Star Wars movie). :ganishka:
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi
Post by: Aazealh on December 22, 2017, 03:23:14 PM
Bloated and meandering. Would have been a great 1h30 movie (albeit with giant-ass plot holes like who the fuck is Snoke again?). Anyway, the franchise should have ended... With the first movie. No sequels needed, not even Empire. You guys have a Merry Christmas. :casca:
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi
Post by: Sareth on December 22, 2017, 05:23:36 PM
Going to see it with my mom the day after* tomorrow (she introduced me to Star Wars when the OT rereleased in 1997, in the theater she saw the first movie in)
Not excited about it but whatever.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi
Post by: Griffith on December 23, 2017, 01:25:00 AM
Bloated and meandering. Would have been a great 1h30 movie (albeit with giant-ass plot holes like who the fuck is Snoke again?).

I think two hours and change, like five to ten minutes, would have been ideal and the cuts were there to be made; less Canto, Holdo, and especially the setup for them. That stuff's undercooked anyway and could be zippier. Also, I know this series has a bad history with "special editions" but this ain't the classic trilogy so keep the theatrical release fluid and provide an extended cut with the home release for all the babies you had to kill to get it down. I'd like to see those scenes put back in context anyway, like whatever extra Luke they cut or Kylo on the Falcon in the last movie (that should have been in there).

Anyway, the franchise should have ended... With the first movie. No sequels needed, not even Empire. You guys have a Merry Christmas. :casca:

 :magni:

While I appreciate you coming with the ULTIMATE purity take (just kidding, I only watch the original Flash Gordon reels on 16mm! =), and think I see your point actually, I respectfully disagree. Even though the original Star Wars is of course the most important and iconic film of the bunch, and arguably even bigger to cinema history than just starting this dumb blockbuster franchise, Empire is a very worthy sequel and film in itself to the point it helped justify them as more than derivative repetitions, and legitimately added the depth to the characters we all take for granted now. Even though Jedi is a step back in that regard it's still a lot of fun (Star Wars post-Indiana Jones) and technically very impressive (still the most impressive space battle in the series, moreso now), wraps things up nicely, and even managed to introduce new iconic characters in Palpatine (an all-timer) and Jabba the Hutt (and his whole palace, really), and the Ewoks...
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi
Post by: Aazealh on December 23, 2017, 08:01:07 AM
and the Ewoks...

I will mail you my French-dubbed VHS of Ewoks: The Battle for Endor for Christmas. :beast:
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi
Post by: Griffith on December 23, 2017, 02:45:48 PM
I will mail you my French-dubbed VHS of Ewoks: The Battle for Endor for Christmas. :beast:

What about Caravan of Courage? :sad:

Oh yeah, and I'd be remiss if I didn't bring up the original follow-up to Star Wars, The Holiday Special!

https://youtu.be/YRrm59Z_0w4

Maybe you're right and Star Wars is basically a net negative... oh well, happy Light Day, everybody!
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi
Post by: Aazealh on December 23, 2017, 04:46:54 PM
Maybe you're right and Star Wars is basically a net negative... oh well, happy Light Day, everybody!

You know where my real allegiance lies! :rakshas:

(https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/baseball/images/9/97/United_Federation_of_Planets_flag.svg/revision/latest?cb=20110810035143)
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi
Post by: Skeleton on December 24, 2017, 08:14:26 AM
Well, I wouldn't mind you showing your work here though because that's pretty high praise! I mean, the movie is non-stop action (or motion depending on you POV), but so are a lot of movies, the prequels and TFA included, so what made this one stand out to you in such a positive way? What makes it more authentic and genuinely magical? It is full of ideas, but what made them hit home for you in such dramatic fashion versus, say, the sports bar in Attack of the Clones?

I honestly don't know if I can answer that in a satisfying way so please bear with me.  I'll use Rogue One as an example.  They literally beat you over the head with the hope message, but the movie never instilled a feeling of hope in me (making a movie that's based around the idea of hope end with everyone dying probably wasn't the best idea  :ganishka:).  The Last Jedi touches on the idea here or there, but it does so in a way that really struck home with me.  When Luke showed up to stare down the First Order, I realized (beyond the obvious fact he was stalling for the Resistance) what he was doing.  The non-First Order galaxy had lost all hope, seeing the Resistance as a lost cause.  And Luke's act (and sacrifice) was ultimately supposed to replace the fear and despair in the galaxy's citizen's hearts with hope and the belief that victory is possible.  It was essentially the Star Wars version of the coach's epic halftime motivational speech in every sports movie when the team's down by fifty points.  To me that was powerful.  And I felt it.  Right in the old ticker.

I thought the slow speed ship chase was awesome.  Not only was it a new, cool idea, but I felt like it was really well done.  There was a real sense of weight to it.  To use the cliche, I was on the edge of my seat.  Keep in mind I didn't plan on seeing the movie before June so I went ahead and spoiled it for myself as soon as the spoilers hit. I knew how the chase would end.  Even then, every time the movie cut to that part of the story and another ship was destroyed by the First Order, I thought," Oh shit, they're fucked if they don't do something fast!"

I don't care what anyone else thinks, Holdo(?)'s kamikaze run was objectively awesome.

I'm trying to avoid a wall of text so I'll try to tl;dr this.  This movie had weight and consequences.  Because of that, I was captivated.  It told a fun, fresh story that moved along the overall plot of the Star Wars story in a good direction.  I loved the humor.  I loved the fact that the humor was used appropriately.  I loved the action.  It didn't feel like an OT Star Wars movie, but it did feel like a Lucas Star Wars movie to the point where I believe Rian Johnson essentially created the perfect George Lucas-only Star Wars film.  TLJ, to me, is essentially the first third of ROTJ without the Prequel Trilogy-ish parts (the band scene and Fett's death by pratfall).  In other words, it's what Lucas was striving for but failed miserably at achieving.  And I'm totally cool with that.  My problems with the prequel trilogy never had to do with them not being totally serious all the time like in Star Wars or Empire Strikes Back.


ETA: Here are my thoughts on the direction in which they took Lukeís character:

If I were making this Star Wars movie, would I have done what they did with Luke? Nah. But I do love what they did with his character. I thought it was realistic, natural, and true to his core character.

(Before I begin I want to say this is how I see it. Iím not suggesting this is The Truth and all other interpretations are wrong.)

In the OT, Luke was given two jobs, defeat the Emperor/Vader and rebuild the Jedi order. Now Luke obviously completed job #1, but job #2 would prove to be tougher. Hereís 2 reasons why:

1. Luke never completed his training, either via Jedi or Sith, so his understanding of the Force, and the entirety of the Jediís understanding of it, was probably fairly shallow. At the very least we can say he probably didnít have the same depth of knowledge that Yoda or Kenobi had.

2. Luke has a cocky streak in his nature. Not only has it been commented on in the OT but itís shown in ROTJ during the first third.

Now Iím not saying Luke was an arrogant idiot, but I do think he wasnít aware of how little he probably knew. And why wouldnít he be that way? He literally defeated the biggest badass Force users in the galaxy AND was crowned a true Jedi by Yoda himself.

So how I see things is after Luke defeated the Empire he either helped his sister rebuild the Republic a bit before starting job #2 or immediately began construction on a temple and finding Force sensitive kids.

Kylo joins Lukeís school, and this is where Lukeís two ďflawsĒ start to come into play. Now I can see Luke seeing his job as teacher as essentially a lay up. Nobody knows the Force better than him, right? So when he senses the dark side in Kylo and investigates further, his realization of just how much ďthe cancer has spread,Ē per se, coupled with its complete blindsiding of him caused him to momentarily ignite his lightsaber. Unfortunately those few seconds changed everything, and to me I love the idea of that.

Doing something bad sucks. You regret the action. You regret the consequence/fallout. And you hate/regret the mindset that led you to that action.

But unintentionally doing something bad is infinitely worse. Imagine youíre having a nightmare. Your body feels movement in the darkness of your room. You suddenly wake and instinctively defend yourself. You feel your hand connect and hear sobbing. You run over to the light, turn it on, and your kidís there crying, holding his cheek, and looking at you with eyes of fear and betrayal. Now not only do you have all the guilt and weight of the bad action but the added guilt and weight of knowing you never meant to do it and would never intentionally do it. Things like making amends, rebuilding trust, etc are now even harder and more painful for you.

So Luke unintentionally slaps his kid and, as if that werenít enough, in doing so accidentally creates the next Vader. Think about that. His one mistake, which is bad enough on its own, ends up unleashing hell on the galaxy (with a wink and a nod to Snokeís corruption).

If that doesnít put the fear of Go-... the Force in you, and make you suddenly aware of your own limitations, I donít know what will.

So Luke, understandably, is now in a position where heís emotionally/mentally devastated, acutely aware of his own ignorance, and snakebitten to the nth degree. So whatís more natural than for him to try to find more knowledge by locating the earliest Jedi temple he can find and isolate himself from both the galaxy and Force so he canít make another devastating mistake?

Makes sense to me, at least. But Iím just a poor country lawyer.

Now Iíve got some beef with Lukeís actor...

Hamill said, in effect, he didnít like what Johnson did with Luke because he believes Luke always sees the good/Light in others, even when it appears theyíre completely lost like Vader.

However, I donít believe thatís true as evidenced by the OT. When Luke found out Vader was his father, his goal did change to trying to turn him good again to the point he risked death by going into the very heart of the enemyís lair. But what happened when he was there? What happened when Vader sensed he had a daughter, and said they could turn her to the dark side?

Luke embraced the anger of the dark side, beat the shit out of Vader, and nearly killed him. Now Iím no expert on human psychology, but to me murdering someone suggests youíve given up on them, on trying to turn Vader good again.

Someone might say,Ē But he didnít kill him! He stopped himself!Ē

Thatís true. But why did he stop? Did he remember his plan to turn Vader?

Remember the Cave of Evil scene in ESB where Luke faced the projection of his greatest. His greatest fear wasnít that he would die. It wasnít that there was no good left in Vader. His greatest fear was that HE would turn to the dark side.

When Luke bashed Vader and cut off his hand, the sight of Vaderís mechanical stump reminded him of his own mechanical hand. And with the help of some Emperor douchebaggery, Luke realized his greatest fear was coming true. THAT is what shocked him back to ďnormal.Ē It wasnít the love for his father. It wasnít suddenly remembering his dad had good in him. It was his fear of joining the dark side that put him back on the right path.

So I believe Hamill is wrong. Luke can, momentarily at least, ďgive upĒ on someone. But I donít know if Luke did, or could, give up on Kylo. Vader was essentially a victim of circumstance, an at his core good person who was tricked/trapped by the dark side. Kylo WANTS to be evil. Heís not trapped. He was tricked, but heís where he wants to be. If Luke didnít follow him around the galaxy trying to change his mind, is that really giving up on him? I honestly donít know.


Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi
Post by: Sareth on December 25, 2017, 01:37:01 AM
Movie was a big dumb mess. I could not give less of a shit about Rey and the rest of the noob crew.
I hate how this new trilogy relies so heavily on nostalgia for the original trilogy while invalidating the events of the of original trilogy.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi
Post by: Griffith on December 25, 2017, 02:30:02 AM
You know where my real allegiance lies! :rakshas:

(https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/baseball/images/9/97/United_Federation_of_Planets_flag.svg/revision/latest?cb=20110810035143)

Talk about mixed bags though! To me Star Trek is ultimate take the bad with the good, or pick and choose wisely, because the good is worth it. But there is infinitly more good material there than Star Wars, it's just hard to parse because there's so damn much in general; wheras Star Wars is like two and half worthwhile movies, a bunch of middling derivatives, and then total shit (I mean, the best stuff from it were the video games). Anyway, Luke vs. Kirk: Who had a worse end? =)

So I believe Hamill is wrong. Luke can, momentarily at least, ďgive upĒ on someone. But I donít know if Luke did, or could, give up on Kylo. Vader was essentially a victim of circumstance, an at his core good person who was tricked/trapped by the dark side. Kylo WANTS to be evil. Heís not trapped. He was tricked, but heís where he wants to be. If Luke didnít follow him around the galaxy trying to change his mind, is that really giving up on him? I honestly donít know.

Well, I don't think it's such a simple litmus test either, like if Luke can feel moments of despair (of course he can); Hamill even said Luke might take a few years to regroup, but this is about the core, direction and summation of his entire character, and considering his heroism is a large driving force of the original trilogy it's strange that he completely gave up on everyone and everything he cares about for the convenience of this plot. So, I think Hamill is pretty spot on and in touch with the character he's embodied so well over the years (I think I like real life Hamill more than "Jake" from TLJ =). But that's the story Johnson wanted to tell and he tells it about as effectively as can be, but I don't think it's a great or even very true direction to take the character, more like a 'what-if?', and certainly not a worthy swan song (I don't think that was the point, but they took on that burden). Anyway, it's the only Luke-centric sequel we're going to get, so those of us hungry for that will ultimately have to make peace with it or banish it to the prequel zone.

Movie was a big dumb mess. I could not give less of a shit about Rey and the rest of the noob crew. I hate how this new trilogy relies so heavily on nostalgia for the original trilogy while invalidating the events of the of original trilogy.

I think I know what choice you'll make! :ganishka: It's a good point that these movies success are largely at the expense of the previous trilogy and characters, undermining their stories and passing on their gloey to a new generation, but I think going at that head on was largely the point of this movie, so credit for honesty at least.


What say you, Wally; where you at? =)
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi
Post by: Skeleton on December 25, 2017, 04:32:22 AM
Well, I don't think it's such a simple litmus test either, like if Luke can feel moments of despair (of course he can); Hamill even said Luke might take a few years to regroup, but this is about the core, direction and summation of his entire character, and considering his heroism is a large driving force of the original trilogy it's strange that he completely gave up on everyone and everything he cares about for the convenience of this plot. So, I think Hamill is pretty spot on and in touch with the character he's embodied so well over the years (I think I like real life Hamill more than "Jake" from TLJ =). But that's the story Johnson wanted to tell and he tells it about as effectively as can be, but I don't think it's a great or even very true direction to take the character, more like a 'what-if?', and certainly not a worthy swan song (I don't think that was the point, but they took on that burden). Anyway, it's the only Luke-centric sequel we're going to get, so those of us hungry for that will ultimately have to make peace with it or banish it to the prequel zone.

I hear you. The people I sincerely feel really bad for are those who spent their lives engulfed in the Expanded Universe material. I canít imagine how much it must suck to see how Luke actually ended up after reading countless books about Lukeís post-ROTJ adventures and building up this mythos/idea of him over decades.

My never getting into the EU was a saving grace in this case. I can only go on the logic of ďdoes this make sense within the context of the movies/canon/character?Ē And Johnsonís decision does so Iím fine with it.

Take Admiral Ackbar as an example. I fucking love the guy. Who doesnít? He dies in this movie. And everyone was pissed he died semi-off screen. ďHow could you kill off Ackbar like that?! He deserved better!Ē But hereís the thing: Ackbar becoming a huge fan favorite doesnít change the fact he was a bit player in the Star Wars story. Within the context of the story he didnít deserve a grand, glorious, focused-on death. Doing so wouldíve been pure, unnatural fan service. So even though I love the character, Iím fine with the death he got.

Anyway, I understand this thread isnít meant for my kind of folk so Iíll stop parading on everyoneís rain.


Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi
Post by: Griffith on December 25, 2017, 08:02:44 AM
I hear you. The people I sincerely feel really bad for are those who spent their lives engulfed in the Expanded Universe material. I canít imagine how much it must suck to see how Luke actually ended up after reading countless books about Lukeís post-ROTJ adventures and building up this mythos/idea of him over decades.

Well, as discussed on the podcast, I don't see much distinction between that Extended Universe material and this (another reason I'm not SO upset with it as the fans looking for a "legitimate" successor to Star Wars). This is just another story based on the old Star Wars films, it just so happens to be a major blockbuster by Disney and purports to fit into a very questionable and uneven film canon (written and produced by different people in different eras for different reasons). So, from a practical standpoint that doesn't make it any better, or even more authentic where it counts, than the Thrawn Trilogy for example, it's just bigger, more well-supported and legitimized from a business standpoint, "We're making 'Star Wars movies' again!" I remember when Lucasfilm released the Shadows of the Empire merchandise; book, soundtrack, toys, games. It was referred to as a film release without a film. Disney is doing that but with actual movies, and now they can make them whatever they want, which is probably for the better.

My never getting into the EU was a saving grace in this case. I can only go on the logic of ďdoes this make sense within the context of the movies/canon/character?Ē And Johnsonís decision does so Iím fine with it.

I wish I could say the same, but like I said Johnson did his own version and unlike Abrams even sort of alluded to the fact that's really all these are: different artists interpretations of Star Wars. It's more Extended Universe than the old EU, which despite also being "Star Wars by other people" it was still all made under the Lucasfilm umbrella for better or worse. Lucas could have made the best of both worlds by hiring the Abrams and Johnsons of the world himself to do his actual sequel ideas, but he "sold his children to the white slavers" so now we'll never know. :ganishka:

Take Admiral Ackbar as an example. I fucking love the guy. Who doesnít? He dies in this movie. And everyone was pissed he died semi-off screen. ďHow could you kill off Ackbar like that?! He deserved better!Ē But hereís the thing: Ackbar becoming a huge fan favorite doesnít change the fact he was a bit player in the Star Wars story. Within the context of the story he didnít deserve a grand, glorious, focused-on death. Doing so wouldíve been pure, unnatural fan service. So even though I love the character, Iím fine with the death he got.

I completely agree, as a matter of fact it was fan service mentioning his death at all. There was no reason to be upset about that because, like you say, he was merely important to the fandom for largely ironic reasons they've since developed nostalgic feelings about, not his role in the story. Luke Skywalker, on the other hand...

Anyway, I understand this thread isnít meant for my kind of folk so Iíll stop parading on everyoneís rain.

Don't worry, your sunshine won't dissipate my rainclouds. =) Like I've been saying though, I'm not even sure where the scales will end up on my overall opinion. Currently, I'd rank it behind TFA but still ahead of R1 and the Prequels (so, TESB, SW, RotJ, TFA, TLJ, R1, AotC, RotS, ... TPM). We've said it before, but the Disney Star Wars movies kind of exist in a class of their own, naturally not as good as the transcendent classics they're emulating (though TLJ makes the best effort to literally separate itself, and in some ways feels like the first original new Star Wars movie, with TFA and R1 being kind of like transition/nostalgia films to ween us off that old Star Wars), but there's almost no way they could be less competently made than the prequels unless Kathleen Kennedy develops a serious substance abuse problem or something.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi
Post by: Johnstantine on December 25, 2017, 05:28:24 PM
Currently, I'd rank it behind TFA but still ahead of R1 and the Prequels (so, TESB, SW, RotJ, TFA, TLJ, R1, AotC, RotS, ... TPM).

For shits and giggles, here's mine:

Empire
RotJ
ANH
R1
AotC
RotS
TPM
TFA
TLJ

The only reason I put the prequels above the new Disney stuff is due to the Clone Wars animated series. As I've said countless times on the boards, that series takes the veil of shit off of the prequels and makes them enjoyable.

Also, if you are in to comics, I highly recommend most of the new Marvel stuff. The Vader series have been fantastic, as well as the ongoing monthly just titled Star Wars. So far it's been really cool and has added a lot of stuff between ANH and Empire.

Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi
Post by: Aazealh on December 25, 2017, 07:31:50 PM
Talk about mixed bags though! To me Star Trek is ultimate take the bad with the good, or pick and choose wisely, because the good is worth it. But there is infinitly more good material there than Star Wars, it's just hard to parse because there's so damn much in general; wheras Star Wars is like two and half worthwhile movies, a bunch of middling derivatives, and then total shit (I mean, the best stuff from it were the video games).

Yep, jokes aside, Trek is so expansive it's almost work to watch it all, and there's tons of garbage to sift through.

Anyway, Luke vs. Kirk: Who had a worse end? =)

Kirk, no question. I mean despite the hatchet job they did on Luke's character, his final moments aren't so bad. His confrontation with the First Order is pretty damn badass and he makes a fool out of Kylo Ren in a way that I feel is true to who he should be (a benevolent Jedi master who does not want to fight his nephew to the death). And while his death itself is pretty ridiculous and lacking in dramatic weight (reminiscent of Padme's...), the setting suns make for some cool imagery. Meanwhile Kirk fell from a bridge. A death worthy of a redshirt.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi
Post by: Walter on December 26, 2017, 03:01:40 PM
I don't have a lot more to add to the thread that hasn't already been reviewed, and now I have to listen to the last half of the podcast ( :magni: ) , but here is my take.

It wasn't bad! I just didn't care about 5/6 of the stories forced into this overlong movie, so I'm not going to bother commenting on storylines that I gave no shits about, like a slow-speed ship chase, a pointless coup, or a circular casino raid. What mattered to me was that Luke felt like Old Luke. Even if it didn't truly amount to much, it's what I wanted from him -- to feel what the years had done to him conveyed through his acting, not a montage, or simply being told about his bitterness. And his motivation to remove himself from the stage made sense to me. The unspoken message of his hermitage was that systemic abuse of the force needed to be wiped from the chess board (He really should have taken care of the Kylo problem before he retired though, just saying, that's a bit messy for a "Jedi Master.")

But the writers/franchise holders want to have it both ways -- criticizing the Jedi order (a really hot take too, the order has been dead for 50 goddamned years) while also keeping the Jedi tomes and preserving monk-like force mastery in an (arbitrarily) NEW codified form! Presumably because they still need to market lightsabers to kids (It's been a few years, but my rant about Disney's franchise syndrome compromising storytelling remains the same).

Advancing the Snoke takedown from the presumed final act was a rush (who was he again? in any case man of great taste judging by his awesome furnishings, wow!), but where they've taken Kylo's character is extremely boring to me. I went in liking his character quite a bit, thinking there was potential there. And I liked the interplay with him and Rey -- expanding the distance-crossing Force conversations into what... Skype for Force 2017? But it wasn't to be. And once the veil was lifted about the root of his anger: a nihilistic tearing down of history, what's left of him isn't much to look at, certainly not something that evokes fear. Luke essentially holds him at arm's length while Kylo swings over and over, like watching Isidro fight Guts. Dude has never been a threat on screen. He doesn't exude terror like someone who wields unchecked dark side aggression should. Even without his little cosplay helmet, he still comes across as a whiny child demanding the galaxy to take him seriously. And now this galactic goth kid has become the de facto leader of a group of preppies pining after their dad's lost cause. Speaking of which, I still can't look at Hux and not think about some archetype of the Revenge of the Nerds villains. No change from TFA, so not sure what the audience is supposed to feel about his character other than embarassment. Not sure any of this adds up to great drama for a climactic conclusion.

The film casting the military-industrial complex like a skin over the endless conflict felt like an interesting touch at first. I'll always listen when someone attempts to do a real-world deconstruction of cartoon-like wars. But this one rang hollow, because it's fucking Disney, people. This is a missive from the Entertainment Empire, lecturing us about the folly of choosing sides when the middle man gets fat on the blood of the sheep caught in the perpetual war. I didn't check, but it wouldn't be crazy if Bob Iger had a cameo at the casino scene.

And that's sort of where I was left, as I processed my thoughts on the drive back: I'm still not sure why this needs to exist. I feel like they're saying something about the Star Wars mythos with this movie, but it doesn't amount to very much, and there's a whole lot of filler in between.

I'm not really interested in ranking the movie against the others, but I thought this was a fine entry. I enjoyed it more than Force Wakens, mostly because the remix nature of that movie still rubs me the wrong way. This was at the very least a new experience.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi
Post by: Griffith on December 26, 2017, 07:41:54 PM
The only reason I put the prequels above the new Disney stuff is due to the Clone Wars animated series. As I've said countless times on the boards, that series takes the veil of shit off of the prequels and makes them enjoyable.

Interesting you actually put the new trilogy below the prequels, and while I can understand how that series could retroactively put the prequels in a better context, it can't make those stinkers into well directed or acted movies; they're really bad movies beyond the story problems! Just like whatever problems I have with the new Star Wars movies' plots, I can't complain about the production values. It's actually not fair that the prequels in essence give Disney a rock bottom they can never reach, so the worst Star Wars movie they make will probably only ever be the 4th worst Star Wars movie. Unless they decide to do Binks: A Star Wars Story. Anyway, saying Last Jedi is like the 4th, 5th or 6th best Star Wars movie becomes contextually meaningless if one considers below that a bottomless void, so I probably shouldn't even rate those because they just throw off the curve. Another interesting thing is how well the new movies do with critics, all of them being ranked above Return of the Jedi on RT: TESB 94%, SW 93%, TFA 93%, TLJ 91%, R1 85% (I'm sure the Disney machine being behind them doesn't hurt these scores), RotJ 80%, RotS 79%(!?), AotC 66%, TPM 55% (of course the audience score currently puts TLJ below Phantom Menace and only above The Clone Wars movie =).

Also, this shit's getting juicy:

http://www.screengeek.net/2017/12/24/disney-expects-solo-a-star-wars-story-to-bomb/

Maybe all the cracks we're seeing from production to production are about to break wide open.

I mean despite the hatchet job they did on Luke's character, his final moments aren't so bad. His confrontation with the First Order is pretty damn badass and he makes a fool out of Kylo Ren in a way that I feel is true to who he should be (a benevolent Jedi master who does not want to fight his nephew to the death). And while his death itself is pretty ridiculous and lacking in dramatic weight (reminiscent of Padme's...), the setting suns make for some cool imagery.

Agreed about Kirk, and your analysis of Luke here improves my disposition about the whole thing. =)

What mattered to me was that Luke felt like Old Luke. Even if it didn't truly amount to much, it's what I wanted from him -- to feel what the years had done to him conveyed through his acting, not a montage, or simply being told about his bitterness. And his motivation to remove himself from the stage made sense to me. The unspoken message of his hermitage was that systemic abuse of the force needed to be wiped from the chess board (He really should have taken care of the Kylo problem before he retired though, just saying, that's a bit messy for a "Jedi Master.")

I'm going to come over to this side of things eventually because, again, this is all we're going to get, but I also can't help but think it's a failure overall of the Star Wars fans now making these movies to handle Luke like a regular character, properly extract him from storytelling purgatory, reintegrate him into the plot, and eventually do something interesting or even relatively normal with him. There was a number of pretty straightforward ways to do this and for whatever reason they treated Luke like a radioactive faberge unicorn before disposing of him as soon as possible (while having it both ways, as you put it about the Jedi, along the way). It's hard for me to accept not getting him off that island they plopped him on as a great reintroduction, development and sendoff for the character, let alone the best they could do.

Presumably because they still need to market lightsabers to kids (It's been a few years, but my rant about Disney's franchise syndrome compromising storytelling remains the same).
The film casting the military-industrial complex like a skin over the endless conflict felt like an interesting touch at first. I'll always listen when someone attempts to do a real-world deconstruction of cartoon-like wars. But this one rang hollow, because it's fucking Disney, people. This is a missive from the Entertainment Empire, lecturing us about the folly of choosing sides when the middle man gets fat on the blood of the sheep caught in the perpetual war. I didn't check, but it wouldn't be crazy if Bob Iger had a cameo at the casino scene.

I was debating the movie with friends last night and one of them, my buddy from the GoT thread actually, had the the most sinister interpretation of this vis-a-vis the seemingly puerile ending: that the little boy is literally playing with Star Wars toys and YOU TOO can be the hero if you BUY BUY BUY! He acknowledged this of course wasn't intentional but it's kind of impossible not to see once you look at it that way.

I don't feel as harshly towards Disney's "evil empire" though because the creative people they've employed are still doing a better job with pop entertainment than just about anybody (and the missives in this film are theorhetically from Rian Johnsons for better or worse). Plus, here we are participating in it despite all our complaints. Anyway, the Star Wars prequels (and even the originals as far as merchandising is concerned) and pre-Marvel Studios superhero movies were not great examples of storytelling integrity before Disney got a hold of them either, tired as the current formula may be (and Star Wars doesn't quite have a working one, theyre stil experimenting, which is more interesting to watch than the plots of the movies themselves, unfortunately).


I'm not really interested in ranking the movie against the others, but I thought this was a fine entry. I enjoyed it more than Force Wakens, mostly because the remix nature of that movie still rubs me the wrong way. This was at the very least a new experience.

So you have it ranked fourth!? =) And it is and it isn't new, like TFA, since even when seemingly spurning nostalgia, by flipping the most obvious twists, it's still heavily reliant on it and the best it could do was sort of pave the way for something new... From JJ Abrams of all people! :ganishka: I thought this movie also fell back on old Star Wars lines more than TFA, "Rebel scum?", R2-D2 playing his #1 hit (these movies are still like a greatest hits album), and a strong case can be made it's essentially remixing Empire as much as TFA did ANH: the escape from the Reb-sistance Base at the beginning, leading to a movielong chase, seeking help from a more luxurious civialian port, being betrayed by a scoundrel there (that was literally almost Lando), while the young Jedi struggles with a difficult an eccentric master before leaving to save their friends, leading to a play on the throne scenes from Jedi (like the shield generator callback in TFA), familial revelations, literal offers to bring order the galaxy... and they just moved the AT-AT Hoth battle, "Mm, salt" to the end. So, if you hated the callbacks in TFA and think it's essentially just an updated ANH, TLJ is just as culpable and for all it's allusions to change is still more of the same in the end. We got the young Jedi, the Dark Lord, an Evil Empire, a Rebellian, and some scoudrels, but unlike the originals it feels like the galaxy is only as big as what we see on screen and there's only like those dozen characters left in it. The Star Wars universe is literally down to that, and relying on Abrams to reinvent it again. Anyway, what sets the film apart and could ultimately redeem it for me is the reflection on Star Wars itself, but it still doesn't offer anything really new or worthwhile by the end, just a push for it (and, correct me if I'm wrong, you didn't even really like where it took/left them).

These movies occupy a weird space; there's never been so much talking up or down of movies most people can agree are just "fine." =)
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi
Post by: Johnstantine on December 28, 2017, 01:27:41 AM
Also, this shit's getting juicy:

http://www.screengeek.net/2017/12/24/disney-expects-solo-a-star-wars-story-to-bomb/

Maybe all the cracks we're seeing from production to production are about to break wide open.

Oof, that's a harsh article. I lost interest in it the moment Ron Howard signed on. It has Justice League written all over it.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi
Post by: Griffith on December 29, 2017, 08:01:57 AM
Oof, that's a harsh article. I lost interest in it the moment Ron Howard signed on. It has Justice League written all over it.

Yep, as TLJ shows us it's hard enough for one person to lead a complicated production like this and create something that feels cohesive and whole, and it was automatically going to be uneven once they replaced Lord & Miller with Ron Howard (who make Zack Snyder and Joss Whedon seem like the same director), but this is a mess. The only hope is that Howard is redoing so much that he's basically reshooting the entire movie his way, but then we don't know if that'll make it any good either (it is written by Lawerence Kasdan, but Alden Ehrenreich can't sell himself as Han Solo it doesn't matter). This allegedly fake artwork isn't bad though:

(https://i.redd.it/g4uahr5tzh601.jpg)

I'm betting the real one will actually be worse. :ganishka:


BTW, Kojima is back with another, mostly, interesting film review (also check out that poster (https://artfiles.alphacoders.com/111/111163.jpg) with Dark Luke!?):

https://www.rollingstone.com/glixel/features/kojima-star-wars-in-the-era-of-disney-w514793

It's not as good as his Blade Runner (https://www.rollingstone.com/glixel/features/kojima-dreams-of-blade-runner-w509779) article, but it's kind of hard to say something new about Star Wars at this point. Anyway, I'm enjoying his second career. If SK.net sends another letter to Miura we should ask if he'd be willing to moonlight as our official film critic. =)