Regarding above spoilers, it was indeed weak writing. A false conflict just so he could make his "choice" at the end of the episode. Oh well. A low key, but nevertheless enjoyable season overall.
NightCrawler said:I think it was easily the worst episode of the season, aggravated by the fact that it was the finale.
Also, Peter Gould is convinced we find his montages as entertaining as he does.The job offer sounded bogus. Either it was supposed to sound that way or not, it's just lousy writing. I found unbelievable and unrealistic how he completely blew it off too.
NightCrawler said:I think it was easily the worst episode of the season, aggravated by the fact that it was the finale.
NightCrawler said:The job offer sounded bogus. Either it was supposed to sound that way or not, it's just lousy writing. I found unbelievable and unrealistic how he completely blew it off too.
Walter said:Regarding above spoilers, it was indeed weak writing. A false conflict just so he could make his "choice" at the end of the episode.
Griffith said:Are they afraid to make the Saul show, or are they just way too in love with Jimmy? Is Saul actually going to appear in "the Saul show?"
http://variety.com/2016/scene/vpage/better-call-saul-bob-odenkirk-season-2-premiere-1201696032/ said:The executive producers and showrunners of “Better Call Saul,” Vince Gilligan and Peter Gould, said the timeline for when Jimmy would become Saul has been in constant flux.
“In the early going, we thought he would become Saul Goodman by the end of the season, or maybe by the middle of Season 1,” Gilligan said. “We came to realize that Jimmy McGill is a guy we like better than Saul Goodman. He’s a guy we’d like to have a beer with, and we came to the realization that when he becomes Saul Goodman, it’s going to be a bit of a tragedy.”
Does it feel to you like the show is shifting in season two from being not just Jimmy's doomed transition into Saul, but also more of a doomed love story with Jimmy and Kim?
Absolutely. When we started season two, I think a lot of the audience, and even the writers included, when we ended season one we thought, "OK, here comes Saul Goodman," but the more we talked about it, we realized that Jimmy McGill has people that he cares about, one being his brother, even though his brother betrayed him and that was part of the reason he wasn't going full Slippin' Jimmy in the prior season. But as he moves forward, he cares a lot about Kim. There's a love story happening here. He's wearing Marco's ring and he wants to go off and be that guy, but he realizes that if he wants this person he cares about in his life, he can't really do that right now. So he has to keep being Jimmy McGill, the lawyer, for her.
Has there been surprise in the writers room about that? You guys are building to a character who you all love and who fans love, but has there been a shock at how much sympathy you feel for Jimmy and how much you want to stay with Jimmy?
Yeah. When we started Better Call Saul, I never in a million years ... it's really thanks to Bob Odenkirk. It's what he brings. We write the show, but what he does shapes what we do, so it's a give-and-take. Vince has talked about it in other places, what Chuck [Jimmy's older brother] became at the end of season one, the betrayer? We never thought of that when we started out, but Michael McKean brought this certain element to the role that helped shape our storytelling. I think Bob is absolutely doing the same thing with Jimmy McGill. You see him on screen and you root for him and he has this likability to Jimmy McGill that was not really there with Saul Goodman. So when we started out, no, I never would have thought we would feel for him so much or he'd be the character that he is, but it's the combination of what we do in the writers room and what Bob brings to the character that shapes all of it.
Has that had a demonstrable effect in terms of slowing down the storytelling and keeping us in Jimmy-ville for longer?
I think so, yeah. I think us caring for Jimmy is probably one of the factors in why he's not full-blown Saul Goodman. It's hard to let go of Jimmy right now, as much as a lot of the audience and myself included want to see Saul, I don't want to leave Jimmy behind, so it gets to be a slower transition. Saul definitely pokes out many, many times this season, that personality, but I think it also makes it more believable, too, that we don't end season one and ... he's that guy. It's more real transition. Sometimes there's a catastrophic event that'll change a person, but in reality it's a slow transition. It's just more real this way.
Griffith said:At this rate I'm afraid we won't get another season to find out.
Skeleton said:You said it better than I ever could, my friend. I would add to what you said, but you hit the nail squarely on the head. I like the show. The quality is definitely there. But I wish the story would just get going already.
Griffith said:You said it more concisely; quality without quantity. I see the craftsmanship, but to no end.
Are they afraid to make the Saul show, or are they just way too in love with Jimmy? Is Saul actually going to appear in "the Saul show?" At this rate I'm afraid we won't get another season to find out.
Griffith said:This is a weird show; I like it (more than anyone I know) but feel like it's going absolutely nowhere except off the airwaves without ever depicting Saul!
Griffith said:... I can't help but worry they're going to get the plug pulled on them before they can go anywhere...
Griffith said:or worse, that they don't actually know where they're going.
Griffith said:As I've said before, for all it's minute by minute quality the show truly seems rudderless and meandering, with little connection between it's disparate parts (I think Mike and Saul have talked, like, twice this season?). It's like they managed to solve the problem of prequel expectations by completely ignoring where they're supposed to be going, which is admirable, but only to a point.
m said:If the show was allowed to run its course, what do you think the ending would be? The reason I ask is because I think that one possibility is that the show will end once Jimmy does becomes Saul. I'm not saying that I think this is the most likely scenario, but I think I'd be fine with it (typing this paragraph I'm thinking that perhaps the natural ending would be Saul meeting Walter). I personally don't feel like a full-fledged Saul is a must for the show. In my opinion just having the show being about Jimmy's transformation would be fine.
m said:One thing I do wonder is what the show would be about if they do go with a full-fledged Saul. We've already seen Saul in Breaking Bad, so I wonder what this show would add to what we've already seen.
m said:I don't know how these things work, and over here the show is marketed as a Netflix original show, so I wonder if the show getting the plug pulled is really a big concern? I guess what I'm trying to say - and again, I most likely don't know what I'm talking about, which is why I ask - is, if the show loses viewers, would Netflix pull the plug in the same way a regular or a cable network would? Do they even have that many viewers to being with?
m said:Is this a big concern for you at the moment? I don't think it is for me. Not only do I like the show as it is, the runners have a lot of credit with me for what they did in Breaking Bad. At the moment I'm more than happy to trust them and to see how it all plays out.
m said:I don't think they're ignoring where they're going, but rather that they're taking their time getting there (I could go the other way and say that the problem is that Mike's and Jimmy's paths crossed too often in the beginning )
Griffith said:It's also on AMC but it does seem like they're truly cross-platforming it, so maybe it will have a home somewhere no matter what.
Griffith said:Still, there's business realities that not even Breaking Bad was above. Someone has to pay for these episodes to be produced, and who and how much matters, and it's not like the producers aren't aware of this. Saul is shot digitally as opposed to film, as Breaking Bad was, because it saves them like $100,000 an episode.
Griffith said:I'd like to see them actually do something with Saul, which is explicitly what they set out to do; the idea of it being a half hour comedy was even toyed with. While I'm glad they chose something more serious and to their strengths, making what's an entirely different show about essentially a different character on the name of Saul is kind of a cheat. I mean, he's going to be Saul on Breaking Bad, and so far there's been little to rectify how Jimmy becomes the man we see there, who is either a very complete or otherwise broken man compared to this one. The more nuance and depth they give Jimmy, the more it actually poses the problem of how the hell he becomes a clown like Saul.
Griffith said:Again, that was the plan, not saying they need to do that but it's almost like they never really figured it out beforehand and still haven't. A big concern going in was if they could figure out how to make a Saul work, and one could argue they haven't.
Griffith said:Yeah, but they're very much not getting there, and unless something shocking happens (not impossible with this crew's history) I'm not seeing something bigger overall take shape, quite the contrary, they're going even further afield (maybe that's how we'll arrive at something fantastically unique, but with the steps forward and back the show's already taken, I'll believe it when I see it).
Griffith said:Even if/when they do, was this the best use of 20 hours, a lot of it retreading the same or every similar ground (it's a fair question since I'm investing the time =)?
Griffith said:And again, I don't see or believe in a master plan yet; from what they've said and I've seen and the nature of the beast they're just making it up as they go along (which isn't necessarily a bad thing, this was true of Breaking Bad, and most television, as well). It feels like it's almost indecision at this point though, or Jimmy's predicament is the producers: do they want to play it straight, be a comedy, be a Breaking Bad fan service show (they keep using elements, but the big fish are still out there =), and they're kind of trying to do a little of it all without fully committing to anything (even the show's original material; Nacho and, until recently, Chuck are almost non-factors). They're choosing half measures, when they should go all the way.
m said:This is great news!
I hope so. I'd like for the show to go as far as it wants to go, preferably in its own terms.
m said:It could definitely be that they haven't figured out how to make Saul work but, in my opinion, the Jimmy of the show is slowly but surely becoming the Saul of Breaking Bad, and I think we've already seen glimpses in Jimmy of what was par for the course for Saul, and I think all that is happening is contributing to lead him there.(like when he defended the guy that sold stuff to Nacho, or when he's filmed his commercials, or to some extent even when he's helped Mike)
m said:I'd say something similar about Mike as well (who is going deeper and deeper into the rabbit hole).
m said:It's very much a fair question. Maybe it wasn't the best use of the first two seasons, but my take on it is that they want to hammer their points home to show that his transformation didn't happen overnight.
m said:I also think that they're making it up as they go along (the clearest example is the major step back they took at the beginning of the second season), but I rationalize their decisions as them trying to explore some themes and, as I said above, to emphasize some points, though perhaps I'm giving them too much credit and being naïve.
Griffith said:Well, I'm less restful about it given that news, but I'm always going to be wary because of the way Bad ended having to cram what seemed like at least a couple more seasons of story into 16 episodes.
Griffith said:Yeah, but they had that from the start; so the show has almost become a complete detour from... the show. It's like they've said, they just like Jimmy more than they do Saul. But, the main tension of the show shouldn't be, "What's this show about?" After the latest episode things have certainly gotten more interesting though.
Griffith said:Yeah, we've got three shows here, and I actually like the divide because it means they can introduce Gus without involving Saul (since the creators are on record saying they "think" they didn't really know each other, but that Saul knew of him through Mike). Even if they never do bring him on or it's just a cameo at the end, that's where Mike has to be going as he gets deeper in the game and makes a name for himself.
Griffith said:Well, POINT TAKEN, guys! Saul now has a more nuanced and protracted origin than Batman.
Griffith said:It's really not hard to see Slippin' Jimmy becoming Saul anyway, it's this detour, his back and forth flirtation with respectability, that's the anomaly. Plus, that's inherently anticlimactic because we already know which way he goes. "Will he? Won't he!?" I already know, he WON'T. =)
Griffith said:Or I'm being too harsh and expecting the show to be something it's just not. I mean, like I've said, it almost feels like some noncommercial, meditative slice of life art piece at times, "We're not just about breaking bad all the time, maaaan". It's a good show, and unique, and maybe it'll end up being a total triumph in its own right, but it's certainly not how I expected.
m said:Three episodes in and I have mixed feelings about the current season, on the one hand I'm glad the show's back and we get to dive into that world again, on the other it feels like nothing is happening at all (I'm beginning to think that perhaps it has been like this all along but I'm just noticing now). For comparison, I started watching Fargo season two at the same time as this show, and I couldn't stop watching Fargo until the season was over, whereas I currently have to convince myself to watch Better Call Saul. I'd be really interested in other people's opinions on how things are going.