Does the berserker armors flashback really show an eclipse/the godhand?

[TheItCrOw]

Greetings!

I've been browsing through this forum threads a bit and many other and when reading about the berserker armors flashback, I'm under the impression that in general, people refer to this image as the old godhand/eclipse and then taking the point further in speculating that SK killed 4 of them.

I for myself always thought that the image does not depict an eclipse, as the giant hand is missing and the overall enviroment reminds much more of the Sea God than the eclipse (Meaning it's a depiction of the old gods - not the God hand. Or maybe they were the same?). There are then more theories developing from this which I don't want to get into right now, as I firstly would like to know what this image really depicts (At least what you think it does)?
I can see this topic being discussed alot, so if there is a thread specificially about this topic, feel free to guide me there!

 

[Walter]

We call it an eclipse because, among other reasons, that's what Guts calls it in the next episode:

Guts: There's no mistaking it
Guts: That’s....
Guts: An Eclipse

If it's NOT supposed to be an eclipse, or we're supposed to think of it differently, then that was a real misdirect.

As for what those beings are, there's really no way to know at this point. But as above, they sure do come across like the God Hand members that we know of, and they're standing shoulder to shoulder with Void. So it stands to reason that they are God Hand-like beings, if not God Hand members themselves. He can elaborate more on it, but I recall @Aazealh was hesitant to call them "God Hand members," because historically we've believed that the God Hand were part of plan set in motion 1,000 years ago, and it didn't quite fit for their to be a previous roster. But we've never been very sure about that stuff, obviously.

That's why for me, I try to keep things simple and interpret based on how it is presented. They come across as God Hand-like beings, so that's how I'll think of them until told otherwise through the story.

I for myself always thought that the image does not depict an eclipse, as the giant hand is missing and the overall enviroment reminds much more of the Sea God than the eclipse

The environment doesn't stay static for sacrificial ceremonies, so there's no reason to think that for eclipses, it's always the landscape of faces we saw for Griffith's eclipse. I'd actually be surprised if it were.

(Meaning it's a depiction of the old gods - not the God hand. Or maybe they were the same?).

Not sure I know what you mean by "the old gods." There is no established pantheon of gods in Berserk.

I can see this topic being discussed alot, so if there is a thread specificially about this topic, feel free to guide me there!

I think it's recent history enough that most of the discussion happened in the 362 thread. You could also check out the podcast we recorded about that one to hear our thoughts at the time.

 

[TheItCrOw]

The environment doesn't stay static for sacrificial ceremonies, so there's no reason to think that for eclipses, it's always the landscape of faces we saw for Griffith's eclipse. I'd actually be surprised if it were.

How do you know? Is there a specific occurence you reference from or is it just not proven to be otherwise? At the tower of conviction, didn't they do everything they could to mimic the look of Griffith's eclipse? If the enviroment didn't matter, why try to copy it? Especially when there are several occasions, where the giant hand is depicted in back panels like when they fought in Vritannis. Seems to me, as if everytime the God Hand is responsible, Miura tells us so in some way. Then again, maybe the sign or concept of the God Hand was developed over the 1000 years to come as you probably meant with:

@Aazealh was hesitant to call them "God Hand members," because historically we've believed that the God Hand were part of plan set in motion 1,000 years ago, and it didn't quite fit for their to be a previous roster

That's why for me, I try to keep things simple and interpret based on how it is presented. They come across as God Hand-like beings, so that's how I'll think of them until told otherwise through the story.

Understood.

Not sure I know what you mean by "the old gods." There is no established pantheon of gods in Berserk.

I referred to the beings that were pushed away by the doctrine of the Holy Sea. I believe Shierke called them "Old Gods" like the Sea god? Could be wrong though.

 

[Walter]

How do you know? Is there a specific occurence you reference from or is it just not proven to be otherwise?

What I meant was that sacrificial ceremonies that we've seen or glimpsed—including the Count's, Ganishka's, and to a lesser extent Balzac's—weren't depicted in that face-landscape domain. So it stands to reason that the scenery changes each time and there's nothing particularly special about the landscape.

At the tower of conviction, didn't they do everything they could to mimic the look of Griffith's eclipse? If the enviroment didn't matter, why try to copy it?

That's because the incarnation ceremony was intended as a mirror of the eclipse that created Femto. That's why you saw recurring events and imagery. But what we're talking about from 1,000 years ago is divorced from that entirely.

Especially when there are several occasions, where the giant hand is depicted in back panels like when they fought in Vritannis. Seems to me, as if everytime the God Hand is responsible, Miura tells us so in some way. Then again, maybe the sign or concept of the God Hand was developed over the 1000 years to come as you probably meant with:

I don't think the lack of a hand in the 362 ceremony disqualifies those beings as God Hand-like. I do think that the members we know of as the God Hand were part of a movement that was orchestrated by Void, and that this previous batch was ultimately a failure. But for all we know, they were made in a similar way, just a different generation, in a different paradigm.

I referred to the beings that were pushed away by the doctrine of the Holy Sea. I believe Shierke called them "Old Gods" like the Sea god? Could be wrong though.

Nah, the sea god wasn't a real god in the sense that it's worshipped and has a formalized order around it. It was just extremely powerful.

Consider how the Kundalini we saw in the battle in Vritannis was referred to (in ep 273) "strong enough to be called a god in polytheistic religions." That doesn't mean it was an "old god." Just a snake that exhibited supernatural powers, so people revered it. Anyway, the Holy See is something shaped by the God Hand for its own plans—note the similarity between the brand symbol and the Holy See's symbol, plus of course the culmination of that religion in the appearance of Griffith as the Falcon of Light. It's possible that this was a latter-day phenomenon that the God Hand mutated for its own purposes, but we haven't heard any hint of that.

 

[TheItCrOw]

I understand all your points.

One further question about the origins of the God Hand. I've read a theory regarding Void which states that he was King Gaiserics Sage/Right hand (which I believe is fairly proven since Mozgus speech) and that he basically created the "God Hand" by sacrificing King Gaiserics kingdom in contrast to him becoming a member of the already existing 4 God Hands (Or God-Hand like creatures).

This theory stems itself on the fact that when Guts, Casca, Rickert and so on try to rescue Griffith from the tower, one image of the bottom of the tower depicts several old skeletons all with their brand of sacrifice precisely on their forehead in contrast to the eclipse we know where each brand was just randomly slapped onto the body. This could mean that these people were part of a cult (led by Void) and "drew" their brands on them willingly to sacrifice themselves, thus creating Void and/or the first God Hand like creatures.
How do you feel about this? This would imply that Void is the creator of the God hand maybe instructed (in the sense of causality as we know it) by the idea of evil to do so?

 

[Aazealh]

I for myself always thought that the image does not depict an eclipse, as the giant hand is missing and the overall enviroment reminds much more of the Sea God than the eclipse

As far as the "environment" is concerned, the fact the Vortex of Souls acts like a giant black hole in the sky where the sun might otherwise be is the only requirement for this to be called an "eclipse" or "occultation" type event. The hand being formed by the terrain isn't necessary. In fact, to elaborate on what Walter said, it lends credence to the idea I put forward that these beings formed a proto-God Hand of sorts, a group whose failure led Void to engineer the God Hand as it currently exists through a different process. But of course, this is all very speculative.

One thing is crystal clear, however: that was an Eclipse-type event, and this group was a God Hand-like group. Everything in those panels screams at the reader that it is the case.

I referred to the beings that were pushed away by the doctrine of the Holy Sea. I believe Shierke called them "Old Gods" like the Sea god? Could be wrong though.

You are misremembering things.

One further question about the origins of the God Hand. I've read a theory regarding Void which states that he was King Gaiserics Sage/Right hand (which I believe is fairly proven since Mozgus speech) and that he basically created the "God Hand" by sacrificing King Gaiserics kingdom in contrast to him becoming a member of the already existing 4 God Hands (Or God-Hand like creatures).

This theory stems itself on the fact that when Guts, Casca, Rickert and so on try to rescue Griffith from the tower, one image of the bottom of the tower depicts several old skeletons all with their brand of sacrifice precisely on their forehead in contrast to the eclipse we know where each brand was just randomly slapped onto the body. This could mean that these people were part of a cult (led by Void) and "drew" their brands on them willingly to sacrifice themselves, thus creating Void and/or the first God Hand like creatures.
How do you feel about this? This would imply that Void is the creator of the God hand maybe instructed (in the sense of causality as we know it) by the idea of evil to do so?

That's one of my own speculations from the episode 362 thread. No doubt whatever version you've read was improperly regurgitated (and unattributed), but it remains a potential scenario (among others) for what happened a thousand years ago.

 

[TheItCrOw]

I understand your points.

As far as the "environment" is concerned, the fact the Vortex of Souls acts like a giant black hole in the sky where the sun might otherwise be is the only requirement for this to be called an "eclipse" or "occultation" type event. The hand being formed by the terrain isn't necessary. In fact, to elaborate on what Walter said, it lends credence to the idea I put forward that these beings formed a proto-God Hand of sorts, a group whose failure led Void to engineer the God Hand as it currently exists through a different process. But of course, this is all very speculative.

One thing is crystal clear, however: that was an Eclipse-type event, and this group was a God Hand-like group. Everything in those panels screams at the reader that it is the case.



You are misremembering things.



That's one of my own speculations from the episode 362 thread. No doubt whatever version you've read was improperly regurgitated (and unattributed), but it remains a potential scenario (among others) for what happened a thousand years ago.

I found the video I've heard the theory from in case you want to watch it in full. Specifically from 11:22 onwards.

 

[Aazealh]

I found the video I've heard the theory from in case you want to watch it in full. Specifically from 11:22 onwards.

Thanks, but I don't really want to watch someone poorly repeating my own thoughts. Feel free to ask me more questions about this scenario or others if you need, though.

 

[TheItCrOw]

Thanks, but I don't really want to watch someone poorly repeating my own thoughts. Feel free to ask me more questions about this scenario or others if you need, though.

Oh I've only posted it you since you mentioned that I quoted your theory unattributed. So I felt the need to at least share my source in case you wanted to contact the guy or something. I wasn't expecting you to watch it really

But taking you by your word: I wanted to discuss the technical side of that theory. So let's assume Void was a sage and he was indeed profound in magic. The way I see it (correct me if I'm wrong): "Magic" or "Wizardry" in the world of Berserk basically means usage or manipulation of Od. Od being some kind of life force/energy, similar to the concept of Chi/Qi in Buddhism which is the energy that flows through your body.

If the theory was indeed true, then Void led a cult and invented or at least made use of the concept of the brand of sacrifice, which is probably a magical concept.

How does the death/sacrifice of a branded existence result in the creation of a "greater" being (by a technical point of view)?

P.S.: How am I able to add a default footer to my messages?

 

[Aazealh]

Oh I've only posted it you since you mentioned that I quoted your theory unattributed.

That's not what I said. I said the place you originally saw it must not have given attribution. Anyway it's not important.

The way I see it (correct me if I'm wrong): "Magic" or "Wizardry" in the world of Berserk basically means usage or manipulation of Od.

Not really, that's a weirdly specific way to describe it. Both Flora and Schierke talk about what it means to be a magician in the manga, and I would recommend you to check those out again. But it involves among other things the ability to form mental images of objects and people, to leave your physical body and project yourself in a body of light, to accomplish rituals that call on to astral beings... And many other things. Perceiving and manipulating Od is just one aspect of it, and not one that's emphasized more than others.

If the theory was indeed true, then Void led a cult and invented or at least made use of the concept of the brand of sacrifice, which is probably a magical concept.

How does the death/sacrifice of a branded existence result in the creation of a "greater" being (by a technical point of view)?

In this particular scenario, I assume that Void created the brand and the sacrificial ceremony (which is something that I also generally believe to be quite probable). I'm not quite sure about your question though. You mean how does the exchange work? Someone getting cursed and someone else receiving evil power? It's actually fairly simple. The brand dooms its victim to the Vortex of Souls, so in a sense it's exchanged against the evil power that the apostle receives (which is taken from the Vortex from what we understand).

 

[TheItCrOw]

In this particular scenario, I assume that Void created the brand and the sacrificial ceremony (which is something that I also generally believe to be quite probable). I'm not quite sure about your question though. You mean how does the exchange work? Someone getting cursed and someone else receiving evil power? It's actually fairly simple. The brand dooms its vi...

So: Sacrifice goes to Vortex, vortex gives power to apostle.

But who determines the amount of power you get from the vortex? I don't think that the sacrificing works in the sense of: the more sacrifices the more power you receive nor do I believe that the sacrifices actually have to be dead for the sacrifice to be complete (denying the theory that Griffith's ceremony was incomplete), but we do see clear differences in "power ups" (biggest one being god hand and apostles).

Does it maybe have to do with the capacity of evil power/bad Karma the receiving end has to offer? The bigger and darker the ambitions the more power you absorb from the vortex?

 

[Aazealh]

But who determines the amount of power you get from the vortex?

Why are some people smarter than others? Or build muscle more easily? Or have the ability to listen to a tune and reproduce it perfectly? It doesn't need a complex explanation. Apostles are individuals with individual characteristics, like normal humans.

nor do I believe that the sacrifices actually have to be dead for the sacrifice to be complete (denying the theory that Griffith's ceremony was incomplete)

I don't think we need to call every half-baked idea a "theory". The way sacrificial ceremonies work in Berserk is explained in the manga and there is absolutely no grounds to say that Griffith's ceremony was incomplete, that's a mischaracterization of the process. The sacrifice is sealed when the brand is applied, and Griffith was reborn accordingly.

we do see clear differences in "power ups" (biggest one being god hand and apostles).

That's not really comparable. Different ceremonies, different processes, different results.

 

[Gambler]

The thing I question myself is, if every 1000 years an incarnation ceremony happens, that means Void did incarnate himself, too

If that's true, I wonder what he did with his human body back in the days

 

[Aazealh]

The thing I question myself is, if every 1000 years an incarnation ceremony happens, that means Void did incarnate himself, too

Not necessarily. From what we see in episode 362, it doesn't look like Void was incarnated.

 

[Gambler]

Not necessarily. From what we see in episode 362, it doesn't look like Void was incarnated.

Not in 362, but maybe after that happened, who knows... I dont remember when it's told the incarnation ceremony happens every 1000 years, but if they mentioned that, it means it happened at least one time in the past, right? If it wasn't Void, i'm curious who it was

We'll probably never know that anyway... I highly doubt Miura told Mori any details about that

 

[Aazealh]

Not in 362, but maybe after that happened, who knows...

Well the thing is, what we see in episode 362 does seem to be the big event from a thousand years ago given its magnitude (huge city destroyed overnight) and other details like the giant brand on the ground. Yet it differs significantly from how things went down for Femto. But I don't see that as a problem. Nothing says it's got to be the exact same process and circumstances.

Besides, I believe Void failed to accomplish his goal at the time, which is what led him to conceive the scheme being executed in Guts' era. It took a thousand years, but this time it can't be stopped (only it will be stopped by Guts & co, of course).

I dont remember when it's told the incarnation ceremony happens every 1000 years, but if they mentioned that, it means it happened at least one time in the past, right? If it wasn't Void, i'm curious who it was

It's at the end of volume 18, but the way it's worded in Japanese is a little more ambiguous than that: it can only happen once in a thousand years. Anyway, there's always the possibility that it was just thwarted before it could occur.