DoM said:Maybe Guts just told him something like " She is ... a very important person to me" ; and then Roderick took it to "probably the most important to him"
Well yeah, it's possible.
DoM said:Maybe Guts just told him something like " She is ... a very important person to me" ; and then Roderick took it to "probably the most important to him"
zrexe said:I was pretty sure the same idea was mentioned in the Berserk manga, but I just cannot remember offhand which part it came from.
Pakman said:There have been many examples of him resenting the fact that he has to protect her leading up to the beast manifested itself on the tit.
Pakman said:At least up until SK told him there was a possible fix for her. Now he is trying to find a fix for her even though it might not be what she wants.
Guts intestines said:I think Guts would have said, "She's my...responsibility."
einherjar said:I think you underestimate Guts' depth of feeling for Casca.
Guts intestines said:No, I have no doubt of the feelings Guts has on the inside for Casca, what I call into question is what he'd be willing to admit to to a near complete stranger like Roderick, as it is he hasn't even shared his past with the many new friends who have been traveling with him for awhile now, (though I think he eventually will) so something like she's my... responsibility is a truthful answer that matches the context and wording, as well as provides a pause to show that it's not an easy question for Guts.
einherjar said:If that's the consensus on SK's meaning when he says, "What you want..." then I yield, but my feeling is that SK's reference is that Guts' desire for revenge may not be shared by Casca.
Guts intestines said:Probably not, except she assumed that he was going to say something more intimate about his relationship with Casca so this made her snap back into her body meaning she never heard what he said, remember?
Deci said:This thread instantly reminded me of A Link to the Past for SNES.
There's a part in the story where Link says "She's my..", referring to Zelda, and doesn't finish the sentence. For a long time people debated on how that sentence would be finished, the most disturbing being "sister!".
nfries88 said:Anyway, for the topic, I'd like to propose that the line is complete. I won't claim to be an expert on the series, but my own perception of Guts is that he isn't sure anymore himself. If I were to complete it myself it would simply be, "She is important to me," or more elegantly, "She is my fondest memory."
Aazealh said:What are you talking about? I'm quite certain that Link never utters a single word in Zelda III.
Scorpio said:I just finished playing through the game a week ago, and he definitely does not say anything.
Aazealh said:Which kind of disproves your earlier point about him not talking about his past to Roderick (not to mention that his feelings for Casca aren't the past).
Aazealh said:What are you talking about? I'm quite certain that Link never utters a single word in Zelda III.
Guts intestines said:What do you mean? I only meant that he wouldn't go into the heavier details of Casca and his past, nor go so far as to say some heart warming speech about the nature of his feelings for her, I think he would of said something true about their relationship, just not something overly revealing, even though it's obvious to everyone how he truly feels.
Aazealh said:You said he'd just say she's his responsability, then justified it by telling einherjar that Guts wouldn't admit his feelings to Roderick. What I'm telling you is that since everyone has already guessed his feelings for her (which is what sparked Roderick's question in the first place, as it's honestly a bit obvious how he feels), there's no reason Guts wouldn't say something more direct. Especially since he's a relatively direct kind of guy.
I think if he had indeed told Roderick that she was his responsability, it'd have implied more about his own feelings for her (fitly, maybe a change from love to responsability, like an old man taking care of a young child) than anything else.
Guts intestines said:This situation probably evokes a lot of feelings of pain for Guts especially to see her the way she is now. You say that because everyone knows it, that Guts would just come out and admit it, well in another situation that would bring up past pain Guts didn't really want to talk about it.
Guts intestines said:I'm talking about that guy who recognized him as the raiding captain of the Hawks, all Guts said was forget it even though the guy expressly remembered it.
Guts intestines said:By saying she's my responsibility he atleast admits some type of connection to her, and it allows Roderick to think what he may from there. Plus, besides for just his feelings for her I think Guts feels obligated to her protect because he was unable to during the eclipse.
Aazealh said:That didn't seem to be the case in the episode in question. And at this point like I said it isn't admitting something as much as confirming what everybody knows. You talk about another situation in which Guts wouldn't want to talk about it, but the fact is he did answer Roderick's question, even though we didn't get to see the end of his line, assuming he completed it.
Aazealh said:He was in a hurry and didn't exactly have time to explain everything that had happened ever since the last time they saw each other (which is exactly what he told him), not to mention how he feels about Griffith. I'd say that situation is completely different
Aazealh said:Oh come on, look at what you're saying. Admitting a connection? What for? They're travelling together and he's obviously very fond of her, how could they not be connected? He's the only one in the group that really knows who she is and why she's with them in the first place. There's no doubt they're connected and it's not what Roderick was asking about. He directly asked him if she was his woman. Now, Guts might have answered indirectly, we can't know, but there's no doubt as to what Roderick wanted to know or what his companions thought his answer would be (both Farnese and Schierke).
Aazealh said:On a side note, I think we might yet get to see what he said sometime in the future. Roderick could be reminded of that moment, and we'd see the complete line, bringing light on the then current events. Just a thought I've had for a while.
Guts intestines said:You contradicted yourself just by saying,"but the fact is he did answer Roderick's question, even though we didn't get to see the end of his line, assuming he completed it"
Guts intestines said:and that's just the thing, we really don't know how much of that pause was because Farnese didn't want to hear the answer
Guts intestines said:You can't tell me its illogical to think that Guts wouldn't have a problem possibly expressing his feelings about Casca, for one he's not really the bleeding heart kind of character, and two, that relationship is complicated for many reasons.
Guts intestines said:The part about him being in a hurry, is not the reason he didn't talk, its because he didn't want to talk about it.
Guts intestines said:Guts as it is doesn't even like the phrase,"the Hawks" mentioned at all, so its pretty obvious how painful that is.
Guts intestines said:And you honestly believe with more time that Guts would have told him anything?
Guts intestines said:The situation really isn't different because its all connected to the painful crap Guts has endured over the last ten volumes, and asking about Casca and Guts' relationship has to bring up painful memories its not like he has new pleasant ones to reminisce. If I'm not mistakened didn't Guts even say you have the wrong guy as well?
Guts intestines said:Well as I said, Guts as of now is not really going to admit (and an admission and a confirmation are basically the same) his feelings to really anyone
Guts intestines said:And I think your exaggerating the obviousness of his connection to Casca
Guts intestines said:I think when and if Casca recovers that that'll be the time when their relationship really is spotlighted.
Aazealh said:No, I didn't. Whether he did complete his sentence or not is a different matter entirely, and it doesn't affect the rest of what I said.
Aazealh said:Actually, the way it's done, it's not meant to be a pause, just to indicate that we don't hear the end of the sentence. It's like a scene being cut before the big reveal in a movie, you know? If it had been a pause, it's quite likely there would have been suspension points (there weren't). The way things are timed, he could have been simply interrupted as Casca wandered and fell into the water. But then again, I don't favor that possibility much, seeing Schierke's reaction for example (as she could have very well heard the end of what he said herself before going to Farnese' side).
Aazealh said:Well I never said it's illogical to think that Guts wouldn't have a problem possibly expressing his feelings about Casca. Quite the contrary in fact. Don't attribute things to me that I didn't say. As for the relationship being complicated, it doesn't change his evident feelings for her, nor the fact that he's usually blunt and honest when he speaks.
Aazealh said:Sorry but I believe it did matter quite a bit, and I don't think you can really argue against it. He says so himself, and it was the case anyway.
Aazealh said:In fact, he got more upset when Owen mentioned Griffith directly (and the fact that he was coming their way) than just him have been part of the Band of the Falcon.
Aazealh said:Probably more than he did, yeah. He's not really reserved when it comes to Griffith. That doesn't mean he'd have told him about his whole life.
Aazealh said:The context is quite different. The subject is different as well, and the way the conversations were started and conducted. Both topics being connected to his past doesn't make for much of a similarity in comparison to all the differences. Besides, Casca is the present for him, and his answer to Roderick was as spontaneous as the question itself.
Aazealh said:No, I wouldn't say they the same, especially in the context of what you were saying (where it sounds like he's confessing something he kept secret, which isn't the case). And he basically did answer that question, or started answering it without hesitation (assuming he was interrupted, which isn't more probable than the alternative). I don't see what use there is in denying it. And I don't think you're in any position to affirm what Guts could have said or not. Which was my original point: that you can think he downplayed their relationship, no problem, but that there's nothing to back it up.
Aazealh said:Hahaha, I'm definitely not exaggerating anything. The fact all the people he's travelling with have deduced she's his lover should be enough of a clue, don't you think? Not one of them doubts it. And there are tons of scenes where it's painstakingly obvious, even for example Serpico reasoning him when he was getting angry at Zodd on Vritannis' docks.
Guts intestines said:Yes you did. By saying he answered Roderick's question, then within the same sentence you said assuming he completed it (his line).
Guts intestines said:I understand that, however there is not enough evidence to prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that Schierke heard much more than Farnese.
Guts intestines said:Guts could of coughed, sneezed, anything that could have delayed his answer long enough so that Schierke finally went back into her body.
Guts intestines said:There's also the fact that we didn't get any kind of reaction from Roderick that would support the assumption that he got an answer when the scene shifted back to Guts and Roderick.
Guts intestines said:You didn't say it directly, but you did make it sound that way when you said,"there's no reason Guts wouldn't say something more direct. Especially since he's a relatively direct kind of guy" You even supported your argument by saying that everyone in the group knows his feelings for her, so he would be direct.
Guts intestines said:It was you who took shots at my theory, and I don't attribute anything to anyone, I use only what they give me.
Guts intestines said:Anyway, your only analyzing half of Guts' personality when you say he is blunt and honest, you're right when it comes to Guts in battle or dealing with other people, but he is not always blunt and honest when it comes to his relationship with Casca.
Guts intestines said:I still don't understand why you choose to use this argument, Guts made not effort at all to answer that question even if he was in a hurry he could have choosen to answer it later.
Guts intestines said:You also have to consider the fact that Guts' companions are still in the blank (except Puck) and they're with him all the time, so he has had plenty of opportunities to tell them what's up.
Guts intestines said:All of this points to his inability to completely come to terms with his past, as well the beast becoming prominent and then there's Guts' decision to go off own his and leave Casca.
Guts intestines said:Of course he'd be more upset when Griffith was mentioned, he is one of the main perpetrators. That doesn't mean he isn't at all bothered by the word hawk/falcon being mentioned in reference to the band.
Guts intestines said:This is untrue because as I said the group is nearly completely in the dark, even in regards to Griffith.
Guts intestines said:Let's see, two strangers both ask Guts questions that require some introspection and/or reflection of his past involving the two most important people of his life: Griffith and Casca, that's sounds like enough similarities to me.
Guts intestines said:When you admit something your confirming it, when you admit something you are also technically confessing it, though confession has a much more secretive conotation, but I'll drop this one, because I don't want this becoming some negative, endless semantics war.
Guts intestines said:All I am saying is that you make it sound like they show their affection constantly in front of the others, when truthfully all the others see is one-sided love from Guts and that only being from him protecting her and relying on Farnese to protect her. If it was that obvious to everyone why would Roderick even ask that question?
Aazealh said:I'm afraid you have some sort of comprehension problem here. In any case, whether he could finish his sentence or was interrupted, he did reply to Roderick. The intent was there. He didn't tell him to "forget it" or refuse to answer. You understand?
Aazealh said:Yet it's still more likely than whatever alternative you're proposing. If you look at the panels, you can clearly see that she comes to herself moments after Farnese. More than enough time to listen to what Guts has to say. In any case, I'm not saying there's only one possibility, just that what you proposed isn't more probable than the rest.
Aazealh said:I'm sure you're aware of how ridiculous this sounds. You've just moved from a random assumption to far-fetched, baseless speculation.
Aazealh said:Actually we don't see Roderick's reaction, it cuts straight to him spotting Casca in danger and yelling. We can't derive anything from it one way or another.
Aazealh said:I'm sorry but I'm afraid you should re-read what you said. You're probably mistaken about what your own sentence means.
"You can't tell me its illogical to think that Guts wouldn't have a problem possibly expressing his feelings about Casca"
Aazealh said:Ah, so it's a theory now? This just gets better and better! Now if only you would use what people give you correctly, then we could go forward. =) And all I did was point out the flagrant flaw in what you assessed as if it was definitive in any way. I don't even think "responsability" is a bad proposition, but your argumentation to prove it's more likely than the rest just doesn't work.
Aazealh said:Hahaha, and it's "Guts intestines" who tells me that. No offense, but I think my understanding of Guts' personality is superior to yours. What's your take, that Guts is too shy to admit he likes a girl? Maybe the reason he didn't get closer on the ship is because he was afraid of getting cooties? And speaking of contradictions, weren't you telling me earlier that he isn't a "bleeding heart" (was a bit out of nowhere by the way)? You need to make a choice.
Aazealh said:It wasn't a question. Owen had already recognized him, he didn't need a confirmation. The only question he asked was about Griffith's location, and he did answer it, telling him he didn't know. So you basically have no point here.
Again you don't comprehend what I'm saying. Guts made no effort to even say, "If I ever see you again then we can discuss and I'll answer your question", your arguing that had he had the time he would of answered his question, I'm saying he wouldn't have, and that he was avoiding it because again he doesn't like talking about his past.Aazealh said:As for answering it later... What are you talking about? Answer it later when? They didn't meet up with Owen again since that time. The city was being invaded by monsters and they had to rush to the docks. I don't understand what you're talking about. Maybe you should re-read this part of the story, because I assure you there was no time, no occasion for them to talk at a subsequent time, and no need to anyway as Griffith arrived shortly after.
Aazealh said:Actually, not so much. They all know quite a bit about him and his life. Including about Griffith. For instance, Schierke and Ivalera saw him in Shet, remember? Then Schierke talked about it with Flora, and was present when Guts almost lost it on the beach after SK merely uttered the word "falcon". Plus she went inside his mind. And Farnese, Serpico, Azan and Isidro were at Albion and witnessed the incarnation. There's more to be said but I think you get the point.
Aazealh said:You mean the decision he took in volume 14 and that he has since completely come back on and still deeply regrets? Because I don't think it's relevant here. Feels to me like you're just mixing everything together for no good reason. You might also want to remember that the Beast of Darkness has actually retired to a "sleep" state recently, so on the contrary, it's less prominent for now. Your point that he hasn't yet completely come to terms with his past isn't even wrong (though it's got nothing to do with the discussion), but your examples are clumsy IMHO. What's next, that time he and Casca had an argument in volume 5? I fail to see how any of it relates to his response to Owen in volume 30.
Aazealh said:Well, he didn't look upset when Owen talked about it. Unlike when Owen talked about Griffith. Just saying.
Aazealh said:Stop stating things you can't back up with any sort of fact please. Since I've addressed this already, let me ask you something: do you know the difference between Guts' companions and Owen? Well, Owen knew Guts and Griffith in the old days. So you actually aren't making any point here.
Aazealh said:Note that even the need for an introspection is debatable, as both subjects touched the present (in both cases referring to the present day Griffith and Casca) as much as the past (if not more).
Aazealh said:That's good, I appreciate that. Especially since "confirm" doesn't have the secretive connotation "admit" and "confess" carry, which was my point.
Aazealh said:Hahaha, what? I never mentioned anything about them showing their affection toward each other. I mean, Casca's not really friendly to him at the moment, as you must know. I don't know where you got that from. However, Guts does show his care and affection constantly, and that's what the others have clearly seen over and over again. That's why the girls are depressed when it comes to their feelings about him. He's all about her, in his every move and decision. Roderick hadn't been with the group for very long when he asked Guts about it (although he clearly wasn't a stranger either, unlike what you've been saying), which can explain the question, yet he still asked if she was his girl straight away. So even in that short time, he had guessed what their relationship was, or at least what Guts' feelings for her were. And the people who've been travelling with Guts for long (Farnese and Schierke in this case, but the others are the same anyway) had zero doubt about what his answer would be. Because they knew it to begin with.
Aazealh said:You know, I think this is a good opportunity right here to stop the discussion from reaching a uselessly large mass, so I'll tell you again what my point was originally: that your justification of why it'd be more likely for Guts to answer like you think he would rather than in a more direct way is flawed. At best we can say that all possibilities are equally plausible. No need to take it farther than that.