Who will be the first to die among Guts' current companions?

[Johnstantine]

I don't think any of them will die. Guts has evolved VASTLY as a character in terms of personality AND strength. I doubt he would let another eclipse-like scenario happen to his new-found friends.

Also, and this is just my opinion, I feel like if Guts went off the deep end and the beast of darkness overtook him and he killed his friends then it would be a MAJOR step backwards for the character. Guts has come a long way and, honestly, I just don't see it happening that way. They might die at the hands of apostles or Griffith himself, but not Guts.

Story-wise, it just doesn't seem logical. Shock-value-wise, sure, I guess.

 

[Walter]

Also, and this is just my opinion, I feel like if Guts went off the deep end and the beast of darkness overtook him and he killed his friends then it would be a MAJOR step backwards for the character.  Guts has come a long way and, honestly, I just don't see it happening that way.  They might die at the hands of apostles or Griffith himself, but not Guts. 

I've considered it too, but I do think with all the buildup and temptation of The Beast recently, I think it will overtake him for a brief period, and it will have to be Guts' friends or even a restored Casca to bring him back to himself. But ... these are just idle thoughts in my head with no real basis other than my gut feeling.

Still, in the end, I agree that I don't think anyone will die as a result. It would just be too much for the poor guy to handle.

 

[Johnstantine]

I swear there's just no telling with that beast. I can see a scenario where it doesn't come out until the end of the series when Guts and Griffith have their "supposed" final battle.

This is purely speculation(and a bit off-topic), but I can imagine Casca not wanting to be with Guts after--if--she recovers so she joins Griffith and then somewhere down the line Griffith and Guts come to a head and, boom, Griffith kills Casca for whatever reason he has and thus the ensuing battle between the beast and hawk becomes the things legends are made of.

Who knows, though.

 

[Walter]

This is purely speculation(and a bit off-topic), but I can imagine Casca not wanting to be with Guts after--if--she recovers so she joins Griffith and then somewhere down the line Griffith and Guts come to a head and, boom, Griffith kills Casca for whatever reason he has and thus the ensuing battle between the beast and hawk becomes the things legends are made of. 

I personally doubt that. If you're basing this on Casca's desire to stay with Griffith before the Eclipse, I somehow think her opinion of him would have changed after he brutally raped her...

But this is a topic for another thread. Let's keep it on topic in the future.

 

[Xem]

Based on what reasoning?

I gave my reasoning above, but I'll try to further explain it.

My question is: what would it bring to the story? Guts fails to control the armor, kills one of his companions. Is devastated because he's lost his personal battle against his own dark side. Then what? You think he'd just go on killing more apostles with the armor after that? If so, you're really misunderstanding the character. I doubt he'd ever forgive himself if such a thing happened.

He may not ever forgive himself, but do you think he'd stop his quest to kill Griffith? It opens a lot of potential for massive character and storyline development. Guts has matured a great deal over the years and has grown quite attached to his new friends, but let's not forget that he's not really all that good of a person. Wanting revenge isn't exactly a good character trait, it's actually quite selfish. Hell, his inner demon is possibly the most evil character in the story. Also, Guts doesn't wear the armor because it makes his mission to exact revenge easier, he needs it in order to kill otherwise impossible enemies. He knows he's nearly killed his friends already, but has he even once thought for just a brief moment about taking it off in order to protect them? No.

If something doesn't happen in Elfhelm to calm down both the berserker armor as well as the beast, it doesn't really bode very good news for Guts and his companions.

Isidro becoming an apostle in order to be a great swordsman? Yeah, that really fits his mindset... Not. And being an apostle wouldn't help with that dream anyway (something I'm sure Isidro is well aware of). Who among the monsters is a better swordsman than Guts? He's even beaten Zodd.

Yeah, I'll concede this point, it is pretty out there. At the time I was just thinking about how much it means to him yet his potential just doesn't live up to it. He'll never be anywhere nearly as skilled as Guts, and I imagined this driving him mad at some point. Though you're right, it's outlandish to think he'd use a beherit to become an apostle.... I actually have my speculations on whether or not it's even possible anymore.

And after that, what happens? The "Game Over" screen?

Who knows what he'd do. The only thing we can be sure of is that he'd be completely crushed. And I honestly don't know how the story would go on after that.

The story is called "Berserk", and Guts has strong tendencies to do just that; go berserk. Though he hasn't ever truly become a berserker in the sense that most people think about in the sense of a medieval fantasy until recently, it's not unreasonable to theorize on how this plot device could completely alter the direction of the story (and Guts character).... which in itself is pretty difficult to see where it's going anyway.

We know Griffith will become King.... that's about it, and we've known that for a pretty long time.

 

[Bekul]

Hell, his inner demon is possibly the most evil character in the story. Also, Guts doesn't wear the armor because it makes his mission to exact revenge easier, he needs it in order to kill otherwise impossible enemies. He knows he's nearly killed his friends already, but has he even once thought for just a brief moment about taking it off in order to protect them? No.

Not much time at the moment, but I'll have to quite strongly disagree here. Guts inner demon the most evil character in the story? Uhm: not to mention the Idea of Evil iteslf, a literal God .

Guts wearing the armor /does/ make his mission of revenge easier - it makes it easier to kill otherwise impossible to kill enemies. And of course he's thought to take his armor off - but he /can't/, without it killing him. It's not a matter of 'want' anymore.

Though he hasn't ever truly become a berserker in the sense that most people think about in the sense of a medieval fantasy until recently,

Oh, sure he has, plenty of times. Even going back to when he was a child - after killing Gambino, being chased off a cliff - remember those wolves? Not remembering how he killed them is a classic sign of having 'gone Berserk'. Not to mention how he became the 'Hundred Man Slayer' to begin with, as well as other battles at the time - and then after the Eclipse! During just about every single fight with an Apostle, he's gone Berserk just to barely survive. What do you mean by 'truly become a berserker in the... sense of a medieval fantasty'?

 

[Xem]

Not much time at the moment, but I'll have to quite strongly disagree here. Guts inner demon the most evil character in the story? Uhm: not to mention the Idea of Evil iteslf, a literal God .

You're taking what I said out of context, I was using this to further support my statement that Guts is capable of killing his companions and yet still continue to slay apostles.

Also it's not like there's a tool to measure evil, that's why I said possibly the most evil. A better point to make here is that you're still comparing a strong dwelling inside of the main protagonist with Griffith, Void, oh, and the Idea of Evil itself. It's not really like we're disagreeing at all, you're actually partially supporting what I said to a degree.

Guts wearing the armor /does/ make his mission of revenge easier - it makes it easier to kill otherwise impossible to kill enemies. And of course he's thought to take his armor off - but he /can't/, without it killing him. It's not a matter of 'want' anymore.

I blame myself for a lot of these responses, I've proven to not be very clear in my posts apparently.

Once again however, I said he doesn't wear the armor to make it easier, he wears it because he needs to in order kill what would otherwise be impossible (the fights with the whalephants, or Grunbeld, for example).

And him not able to take the armor off without him dying? Is he wearing it on the boat at the moment? Maybe I misunderstood you, but he's fully capable of not wearing it in order to ensure it won't cause him to turn on his friends if he wanted to. He chooses not to. That says a lot about Guts' character.

Oh, sure he has, plenty of times. Even going back to when he was a child - after killing Gambino, being chased off a cliff - remember those wolves? Not remembering how he killed them is a classic sign of having 'gone Berserk'. Not to mention how he became the 'Hundred Man Slayer' to begin with, as well as other battles at the time - and then after the Eclipse! During just about every single fight with an Apostle, he's gone Berserk just to barely survive. What do you mean by 'truly become a berserker in the... sense of a medieval fantasty'?

This is simply a disagreement on what a stereotypical berserker is in a medieval fantasy. To me, and I assume most people, a berserker is someone not in control of their actions, full of rage and hatred, who massacres with prejudice until no one is standing.

Here's more along the lines of what I was thinking:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yfbiZK6wrLQ - skip ahead to 1:41

Before the berserker armor Guts has always been fully aware of what he's doing, though full of bloodlust and rage, he would never have killed anyone important to him. The first time we saw Guts ever turn on an ally like that was with the berserker armor.... Even during the Hundred Man Slayer fight, do you think he would've tried to kill the Band of the Hawk had they arrived in time?

 

[Aazealh]

I can imagine Casca not wanting to be with Guts after--if--she recovers so she joins Griffith

Joining Griffith? No way.

I gave my reasoning above, but I'll try to further explain it.

There was no actual "logic" in your former post.

He may not ever forgive himself, but do you think he'd stop his quest to kill Griffith?

If he killed his friends? That would severely hinder it, yes. His quest to kill Grififth, as you put it, has been on hold since volume 22.

It opens a lot of potential for massive character and storyline development.

I don't think so. It'd mostly be redundant with past events. I don't see any "massive potential" in there.

Guts has matured a great deal over the years and has grown quite attached to his new friends, but let's not forget that he's not really all that good of a person. Wanting revenge isn't exactly a good character trait, it's actually quite selfish.

Guts is actually a rather good-hearted person, sorry to tell you.

Hell, his inner demon is possibly the most evil character in the story.

Uhhh, no.

Also, Guts doesn't wear the armor because it makes his mission to exact revenge easier, he needs it in order to kill otherwise impossible enemies.

No. He needs it (needed it) to be able to travel to Elfhelm, a safe place for Casca. That need came about after Slan badly wounded him in the Qliphoth, and he accepted to help with the trolls so he'd be less of a danger for Casca in the first place. Really, I'd suggest you to use a less peremptory tone considering your level of understanding of the topic at hands.

He knows he's nearly killed his friends already, but has he even once thought for just a brief moment about taking it off in order to protect them? No.

You seem to be overlooking the fact he was in the near impossibility of traveling without it (let alone fight). He's actually spent as much time as he's been able to NOT wearing it. And the whole Beast of Darkness business about hurting his friends disturbed him, it's not like he doesn't care. You're completely misrepresenting the situation here.

If something doesn't happen in Elfhelm to calm down both the berserker armor as well as the beast

The Berserk's armor doesn't need to be calmed down. It's an object. Its danger lies in the very way it functions.

He'll never be anywhere nearly as skilled as Guts

You don't know that for sure.

The story is called "Berserk", and Guts has strong tendencies to do just that; go berserk.

Not that strong, honestly. He can be very cool-headed when he fights.

Guts wearing the armor /does/ make his mission of revenge easier - it makes it easier to kill otherwise impossible to kill enemies. And of course he's thought to take his armor off - but he /can't/, without it killing him. It's not a matter of 'want' anymore.

What are you talking about...

1) Does it truly make things easier? He's slowly dying off. He's in worse shape than he's ever been. I agree that the armor has a strong potential as far as pure fighting goes, but the downsides are pretty big as well. We've yet to see it become really advantageous (Elfhelm will certainly be determinant in that regard, assuming he decides to keep wearing the armor).
2) What "impossible to kill" enemies? He wasn't even close to killing Grunbeld with it, quite the contrary, and it wouldn't help with someone of Slan's caliber either if they met now. Remember that the reason he had to wear the armor in the first place was so he could fight despite being badly wounded.
3) He's taken off the armor many times. The last time we saw him he wasn't wearing it.

Oh, sure he has, plenty of times. Even going back to when he was a child - after killing Gambino, being chased off a cliff - remember those wolves? Not remembering how he killed them is a classic sign of having 'gone Berserk'. Not to mention how he became the 'Hundred Man Slayer' to begin with, as well as other battles at the time

I have to disagree. I don't know where you're getting that he didn't remember killing the wolves, but he was exhausted and wounded at the time anyway. As for the battle against a hundred mercenaries, he kept a cool head through it all, even cracking jokes and taunting his opponents.

He's lost himself in the heat of battle several times in the past, but you can't say he just becomes crazy everytime he fights.

During just about every single fight with an Apostle, he's gone Berserk just to barely survive.

Again, I disagree. Look at his fights against Zodd, for example.

You're taking what I said out of context, I was using this to further support my statement that Guts is capable of killing his companions and yet still continue to slay apostles.

But it doesn't support your statement at all, that's the problem. And I don't think it was particularly out of context too. In any case, you can't use assertion A to justify assertion B that's itself justifying assertion A...

Also it's not like there's a tool to measure evil, that's why I said possibly the most evil.

Sorry but as far as Berserk goes, evil can be scaled, and the Beast of Darkness isn't the most evil anything. Not even possibly. Let's not waste time on this.

he wears it because he needs to in order kill what would otherwise be impossible (the fights with the whalephants, or Grunbeld, for example).

No. He wore the armor because Slan's wounds left him in such a bad state he could barely stand. He needed it to protect his friends from the monsters, which he did. He couldn't kill Grunbeld with it, and wisely chose to abandon the fight in order to save Casca and Farnese. He actually fled from an apostle. As for the Makara (please use the proper name), once again he had to use the armor to protect his friends, because otherwise they'd all have died. And his health wouldn't have allowed him to do that without it.

If you want to cast down a judgement on Guts for using the Berserk's armor (and endangering his friends) while it isn't absolutely necessary, wait until after Elfhelm. Because so far, he hasn't had the choice.

And him not able to take the armor off without him dying? Is he wearing it on the boat at the moment? Maybe I misunderstood you, but he's fully capable of not wearing it in order to ensure it won't cause him to turn on his friends if he wanted to. He chooses not to. That says a lot about Guts' character.

What it says a lot about is your inability to properly understand the story...

To me, and I assume most people, a berserker is someone not in control of their actions, full of rage and hatred, who massacres with prejudice until no one is standing.

I take it you mean without prejudice.

Here's more along the lines of what I was thinking:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yfbiZK6wrLQ - skip ahead to 1:41

Couldn't you think of a better example? Like, from traditional fantasy or even just plain Nordic mythology? Hell, Serpico actually gives a pretty good description in episode 242.

Before the berserker armor Guts has always been fully aware of what he's doing, though full of bloodlust and rage, he would never have killed anyone important to him. The first time we saw Guts ever turn on an ally like that was with the berserker armor...

He assaulted Casca without wearing the armor, and he came very close to hurting Jill long before that as well.

 

[Xem]

There was no actual "logic" in your former post.

So the fact that Guts has intense rage and hatred coupled with a set of armor that feeds on Guts losing control and killing everyone, friend or foe, ending with Guts killing his friends doesn't seem logical to you? Please help me understand.

If he killed his friends? That would severely hinder it, yes. His quest to kill Grififth, as you put it, has been on hold since volume 22.

Isn't the conflict between Guts and Griffith basically the entire conflict of the story though? Guts isn't going to give up.

I don't think so. It'd mostly be redundant with past events. I don't see any "massive potential" in there.

Really? So if Guts loses a close companion is that like hitting the "Reset Button" to you? That seems a little close-minded to me.

Guts is actually a rather good-hearted person, sorry to tell you.

Don't be sorry, I love Guts. He's amazing. One of the biggest reasons why is because he's such a flawed human being. Are you trying to say that Guts dream to kill Griffith is totally good and without conflict? Because honestly, not only would I disagree, I would say his choice for revenge over most other things is extremely low.... though it's definitely badass, it's morally and ethically wrong.

Uhhh, no.

Weak response. Are you considering the beast a good character? Name one trait about it that's good? The dog basically feeds off pure violence, rage, bloodlust, murder, excitement, rape, torture, and pure hate.... But yeah... it's not really all that evil.

No. He needs it (needed it) to be able to travel to Elfhelm, a safe place for Casca. That need came about after Slan badly wounded him in the Qliphoth, and he accepted to help with the trolls so he'd be less of a danger for Casca in the first place. Really, I'd suggest you to use a less peremptory tone considering your level of understanding of the topic at hands.

Well you just said it, he "needed it"... past tense. Why doesn't he get rid of it then? Don't hate on me for speculating, but I think he wants to keep it because of that bit of extra ability it gives him. Also, it's totally fitting for Guts to own such a piece of armor.... to speculate wildly for a moment, it almost seems like it was made for him. Especially the beast within him, I'm sure it's loving it. Why part with it?

You seem to be overlooking the fact he was in the near impossibility of traveling without it (let alone fight). He's actually spent as much time as he's been able to NOT wearing it. And the whole Beast of Darkness business about hurting his friends disturbed him, it's not like he doesn't care. You're completely misrepresenting the situation here.

No, I'm really not. I understand Guts cares about his new friends, possibly more deeply than those of us that haven't gone through near-death-experiences will ever know. Guts is simply stubborn, and won't ever let go of his desire to exact revenge on Griffith. You're misinterpreting what I'm saying.... though I'm sure I'm not saying it properly... (as usual)...

The Berserk's armor doesn't need to be calmed down. It's an object. Its danger lies in the very way it functions.

Well Flora mentioned that the armor had an Od, which as I understand it basically means it has it's own life force. It has a certain control over the wearer. If this could be calmed it could help Guts, though I hypothesis that this "calming" would possibly nullify it's function... so it'd be a bit redundant.

Regardless, Guts' inability to control his emotions has to be controlled somehow in order for the berserker armor to be controlled, if even in the slightest degree. If this doesn't happen at Elfhelm I don't know when or where it would....

You don't know that for sure.

Not for sure...

Though I think we're safe to say no one.... could ever live up to Guts swordsmanship. Including Musashi! Yeah I said it!

Not that strong, honestly. He can be very cool-headed when he fights.

I tried to think of other characters that in the heat of the moment went into battle in an insane blaze of fury, and I honestly couldn't think of any.... so he, of all the characters, seems to have a strong tendency to become berserk.

Sorry but as far as Berserk goes, evil can be scaled, and the Beast of Darkness isn't the most evil anything. Not even possibly. Let's not waste time on this.

Okay cool, are you comfortable with telling me where the beast lies in comparison to the other evil characters in Berserk then? Because I think it's a tad pretentious to do so.

No. He wore the armor because Slan's wounds left him in such a bad state he could barely stand. He needed it to protect his friends from the monsters, which he did. He couldn't kill Grunbeld with it, and wisely chose to abandon the fight in order to save Casca and Farnese. He actually fled from an apostle. As for the Makara (please use the proper name), once again he had to use the armor to protect his friends, because otherwise they'd all have died. And his health wouldn't have allowed him to do that without it.

Valid, valid, valid. BUT did he really need to use it? Guts tried his hardest to stop, and has been shown to be upset at the fact that, the berserker armor took over. I'm not entirely sure it needed to happen in every instance, it just did.

Guts, like the armor, are wild cards. Serpico had to intervene between Guts and Zodd after the fight with Ganishka to remind Guts it wasn't worth it, and that was without the armor interfering. Guts, even after all this time, is still the same hot-headed mercenary he's always been at heart. Regardless of how hard that is for you to understand.

If you want to cast down a judgement on Guts for using the Berserk's armor while it isn't necessary, wait until after Elfhelm. Because until now, he hasn't had the choice.

Consciously? Maybe you're right. Though somewhere inside of Guts this is exactly the type of judgment Guts has always wanted.

What it says a lot about is your inability to properly understand the story...

What do you mean?

 

[Aazealh]

a set of armor that feeds on Guts losing control and killing everyone, friend or foe

I don't think you understand how this armor works. It doesn't "feed" on anything.

Please help me understand.

Understand the lack of logical explanation in your original post? You just said that Guts would lose control of the armor and kill his friends. That's an assumption, not a self-legitimizing demonstration of logical reasoning.

Isn't the conflict between Guts and Griffith basically the entire conflict of the story though? Guts isn't going to give up.

The entire conflict of the story? No, not really. It is the main conflict, though. Since we're on the topic, though, allow me to point out another very important conflict: that of Guts against himself (the Beast of Darkness). Your whole premise is that Guts will ultimately lose that fight, which is something I would find very sad, and as much of a set back as a physical defeat, if not more so.

Really? So if Guts loses a close companion is that like hitting the "Reset Button" to you? That seems a little close-minded to me.

Because we haven't seen him deal with the loss of people close to him enough in the story so far, right? And him getting new companions hasn't been treated as a balm that might finally heal those wounds? I'd say the close-minded one here is the guy who can't think of another direction for the story than to repeat what's already happened. What good would more grief bring to Guts? That's not what he needs right now.

Don't be sorry, I love Guts. He's amazing. One of the biggest reasons why is because he's such a flawed human being. Are you trying to say that Guts dream to kill Griffith is totally good and without conflict? Because honestly, not only would I disagree, I would say his choice for revenge over most other things is extremely low.... though it's definitely badass, it's morally and ethically wrong.

I said he's a rather good-hearted person. What part of that don't you understand? And like I already pointed out to you, he's chosen Casca over revenge back in volume 22. I'd say it's about time you catch up.

Weak response. Are you considering the beast a good character? Name one trait about it that's good? The dog basically feeds off pure violence, rage, bloodlust, murder, excitement, rape, torture, and pure hate.... But yeah... it's not really all that evil.

Spare me your pathetic straw man arguments. You said the Beast of Darkness was "possibly the most evil character in the story". It's not the case; you were wrong. That's all. No one said it was a "good" character, for indeed it is not, but that's completely unrelated to the point. Weak response you say? Tell me about it, you sure seem to be an expert in that field.

Well you just said it, he "needed it"... past tense. Why doesn't he get rid of it then?

He's not wearing it anymore, and he's not just going to throw it overboard. He doesn't even have another armor in case he'd need to fight. Like I told you, wait until after he decides to keep wearing it when there are other alternatives to start blaming him for it.

No, I'm really not. I understand Guts cares about his new friends, possibly more deeply than those of us that haven't gone through near-death-experiences will ever know. Guts is simply stubborn, and won't ever let go of his desire to exact revenge on Griffith. You're misinterpreting what I'm saying.... though I'm sure I'm not saying it properly... (as usual)...

I'm not misrepresenting anything. Use the excuse of not being able to properly express yourself if you want, but you can't change what you said. You did misrepresent the situation, consciously or not, and your arguments therefore had no credibility.

Well Flora mentioned that the armor had an Od, which as I understand it basically means it has it's own life force. It has a certain control over the wearer. If this could be calmed it could help Guts, though I hypothesis that this "calming" would possibly nullify it's function... so it'd be a bit redundant.

Everything has an Od. It's everywhere. Don't take this as meaning the armor's alive. And yes, to "appease" the armor's Od would mean to nullify its function. Which is precisely what I said. The armor's Od just can't be "calmed down" without making it useless.

Though I think we're safe to say no one.... could ever live up to Guts swordsmanship. Including Musashi!

I can't disagree with that... Though there's always the Skull Knight.

I tried to think of other characters that in the heat of the moment went into battle in an insane blaze of fury, and I honestly couldn't think of any...

How does that relate to the point I was replying to? You can't prove that a character has certain tendencies by saying you can't think of other characters with said tendencies. It just doesn't make any sense. Besides, there are other characters that fight intensely, especially among the monsters. Zodd is a prime example. But it's not very important anyway: I'm not saying Guts never gets in a rage when he fights, and you were yourself arguing contrary to your own point with Bekul. It's just a matter of semantics.

Okay cool, are you comfortable with telling me where the beast lies in comparison to the other evil characters in Berserk then? Because I think it's a tad pretentious to do so.

At least under the Idea of Evil, each member of the God Hand and all the apostles. I'm not sure what's supposed to be pretentious about it, when it's all clearly laid out in the story. Not to mention that the Beast of Darkness isn't a real, autonomous entity, but a personification of Guts' dark side.

Valid, valid, valid. BUT did he really need to use it? Guts tried his hardest to stop, and has been shown to be upset at the fact that, the berserker armor took over. I'm not entirely sure it needed to happen in every instance, it just did.

Yes, he needed to. He actually chose to use it against the Makara, both times. He voluntarily gave in to the armor, it's not like he couldn't stop it from happening. He had no other choice, and it's quite obvious if you read those episodes. It was either that or death.

Guts, like the armor, are wild cards. Serpico had to intervene between Guts and Zodd after the fight with Ganishka to remind Guts it wasn't worth it, and that was without the armor interfering. Guts, even after all this time, is still the same hot-headed mercenary he's always been at heart. Regardless of how hard that is for you to understand.

Guts isn't a mercenary anymore, no. And while he's a hot-head with an attitude, standing up to Zodd in his state was more posturing than anything else, as evidenced by the fact he fainted right after it happened. Also, he was wearing the armor at the time, and so he was actually under its influence, even if only slightly. Basically, nothing you're saying here contradicts any of what I told you. Are you sure I'm the one having problems understanding things?

Consciously? Maybe you're right. Though somewhere inside of Guts this is exactly the type of judgment Guts has always wanted.

Not "maybe". And no, I don't think somewhere inside of Guts he wants you to cast a judgment on him.

What do you mean?

Exactly what I said.

 

[Xem]

I don't know why but this discussion seems comedic to me.

I don't think you understand how this armor works. It doesn't "feed" on anything.

Eh, you're right, I've always seen the armor as having something of a mind of it's own which clearly isn't right. Either way that wasn't the point I was making, poor choice of words. Simply put, combine a hot-head like Guts, the Beast of Darkness, and a set of armor that's primary function is turning it's wearer into a berserker and you have a recipe for dead people. Friend and foe alike.

Understand the lack of logical explanation in your original post? You just said that Guts would lose control of the armor and kill his friends. That's an assumption, not a self-legitimizing demonstration of logical reasoning.

Hey, I said it could happen. You seem to have this idea that I'm trying to tell you what's going to happen and I'm not. I'm just speculating. This is Speculation Nation, isn't it?

The entire conflict of the story? No, not really. It is the main conflict, though. Since we're on the topic, though, allow me to point out another very important conflict: that of Guts against himself (the Beast of Darkness). Your whole premise is that Guts will ultimately lose that fight, which is something I would find very sad, and as much of a set back as a physical defeat, if not more so.

Again I said basically the entire conflict of the story. I'm usually pretty careful with my words when it comes to generalizing, which I know you hate, but that's just the way I am. Sorry? But yeah, I'm speculating that Guts will lose his struggle to keep the Beast of Darkness at bay during some point in the story... I can't help but feel like all these encounters with it are foreshadowing this.

Because we haven't seen him deal with the loss of people close to him enough in the story so far, right? And him getting new companions hasn't been treated as a balm that might finally heal those wounds? I'd say the close-minded one here is the guy who can't think of another direction for the story than to repeat what's already happened. What good would more grief bring to Guts? That's not what he needs right now.

I can see it going both ways actually, can you? Who's more closed-minded, the one who can see both possibilities, or the one who can't?

I said he's a rather good-hearted person. What part of that don't you understand? And like I already pointed out to you, he's chosen Casca over revenge back in volume 22. I'd say it's about time you catch up.

Yeah I agree he's rather good-hearted, I never disagreed with that, why are you hung up on that? Also, I know he chose Casca over revenge, I never said anything contrary to that. I said he chooses his dream to kill Griffith over most other things. The point here is Guts is a vindictive person, which I fully support, but that doesn't make it right in any way. Let's not try to paint this picture of Guts as the ultimate good guy, because he just isn't.

Spare me your pathetic straw man arguments.

He's not wearing it anymore, and he's not just going to throw it overboard. He doesn't even have another armor in case he'd need to fight. Like I told you, wait until after he decides to keep wearing it when there are other alternatives to start blaming him for it.

This is fine with me.

I'm not misrepresenting anything. Use the excuse of not being able to properly express yourself if you want, but you can't change what you said. You did misrepresent the situation, consciously or not, and your arguments therefore had no credibility.

Well, it's not an excuse. It is because the way I go about making my points makes it easy to misinterpret them. I never said anything about Guts not needing to wear the armor when he first got it. You even said yourself that I seem to be overlooking that fact. I wasn't and I never have, plain and simple.

And yes, to "appease" the armor's Od would mean to nullify its function. Which is precisely what I said. The armor's Od just can't be "calmed down" without making it useless.

Alright, sorry I was streaming consciousness, I never disagreed with you there.

I can't disagree with that... Though there's always the Skull Knight.

At least under the Idea of Evil, each member of the God Hand and all the apostles. I'm not sure what's supposed to be pretentious about it, when it's all clearly laid out in the story. Not to mention that the Beast of Darkness isn't a real, autonomous entity, but a personification of Guts' dark side.

The Beast of Darkness is real...

I'll agree with your previous statement that this discussion about evilness is a waste of time though.

Yes, he needed to. He actually chose to use it against the Makara, both times. He voluntarily gave in to the armor, it's not like he couldn't stop it from happening. He had no other choice, and it's quite obvious if you read those episodes. It was either that or death.

Um, I did read those episodes... quite recently actually, I bought volume 28 about a week ago. When he fought on the beach it's clear he was struggling to keep it under control but he failed.

Guts isn't a mercenary anymore, no. And while he's a hot-head with an attitude, standing up to Zodd in his state was more posturing than anything else, as evidenced by the fact he fainted right after it happened. Also, he was wearing the armor at the time, and so he was actually under its influence, even if only slightly. Basically, nothing you're saying here contradicts any of what I told you. Are you sure I'm the one having problems understanding things?

As Judo once said, "We're still mercenaries." I said Guts is still a hot-headed mercenary at heart, which is true, so yeah I do think you're having a bit of problems understanding things. Either that or you're being argumentative on purpose.

Exactly what I said.

Well Berserk is art, and open to external interpretation. I'll agree you have a better interpretation than I do, that doesn't mean I don't understand the story.

Don't be so mean to me.

 

[vanheat]

I don't know why but this discussion seems comedic to me.

Yeah, same here in a painful way for the spectator with iritis.

Um, I did read those episodes... quite recently actually, I bought volume 28 about a week ago. When he fought on the beach it's clear he was struggling to keep it under control but he failed.

He just slammed his head against a rock, he's on his ass, the Makara is bearing down on his companions, I'd say he made a conscious decision after keeping it under control until then that there was no other options. Yes the BoD kept rearing it's head until then, he was in bad shape, he had to tie his hand to his sword.

Guts, like the armor, are wild cards. Serpico had to intervene between Guts and Zodd after the fight with Ganishka to remind Guts it wasn't worth it, and that was without the armor interfering. Guts, even after all this time, is still the same hot-headed mercenary he's always been at heart. Regardless of how hard that is for you to understand.

Guts isn't a mercenary anymore, no. And while he's a hot-head with an attitude, standing up to Zodd in his state was more posturing than anything else, as evidenced by the fact he fainted right after it happened. Also, he was wearing the armor at the time, and so he was actually under its influence, even if only slightly. Basically, nothing you're saying here contradicts any of what I told you. Are you sure I'm the one having problems understanding things?

As Judo once said, "We're still mercenaries." I said Guts is still a hot-headed mercenary at heart, which is true, so yeah I do think you're having a bit of problems understanding things. Either that or you're being argumentative on purpose.

It doesn't seem like anyone is being argumentative to me. You cited an example to back up your statement of Guts being a wild card and hot headed, which Aazealh pointed out the flaw in your example supporting your statement.

Hey, I said it could happen. You seem to have this idea that I'm trying to tell you what's going to happen and I'm not. I'm just speculating. This is Speculation Nation, isn't it?

No it's Uranus. You said it could happen. Flaws were pointed out on your reasons.

I personally think Guts and Casca will be the first to die from old age and fried nerves. Serpico will live long because he looks like he is 10% under his ideal body weight. Which I've heard makes up 90% of those who live the longest. Schierke will live however long Flora did, which I assume was a long ass time. Although if she marries Isidro that could complicate things. Although Isidro might just run off again after the finale.

Although Azan looks to be 10-20 years older than Guts so maybe he'll be first.

 

[Aazealh]

I don't know why but this discussion seems comedic to me.

Probably because that's the only refuge you have left.

Simply put, combine a hot-head like Guts, the Beast of Darkness, and a set of armor that's primary function is turning it's wearer into a berserker and you have a recipe for dead people. Friend and foe alike.

It's worth pointing out that so far, Guts has managed to avoid harming his friends, even when he was new to the armor and didn't expect to lose control of himself. It seems to me that the logical progression if he were to keep wearing it would be for him and his friends to find a way to limit the danger of its use.

Hey, I said it could happen. You seem to have this idea that I'm trying to tell you what's going to happen and I'm not. I'm just speculating. This is Speculation Nation, isn't it?

You asked me to help you understand why I said your original post didn't back up its claim of logicalness, so I did. This section's name is unrelated.

I can see it going both ways actually, can you? Who's more closed-minded, the one who can see both possibilities, or the one who can't?

Hahaha, are you serious? Do you really think I haven't considered whatever situation you're imagining long ago? Time for a disillusion. And what you said was close-minded was that I told you I didn't think the potential for character development in case Guts' companions were to die was "massive" because it'd be redundant with past events. I still don't see what's close-minded about it.

Yeah I agree he's rather good-hearted, I never disagreed with that, why are you hung up on that?

Because you said he wasn't all that good of a person (as part of a statement implying that his companions' well-being was a trivial matter to him). I disagreed with it (and the "revenge is morally and ethically wrong" bit had me rolling my eyes, just so you know). But apparently we're seeing eye to eye now.

Also, I know he chose Casca over revenge, I never said anything contrary to that. I said he chooses his dream to kill Griffith over most other things.

Hahaha yeah, right. You were implying that he didn't care about the fact he might kill his friends (a group of which Casca is a part) as long as he could kill more enemies with the armor. I'd say that kind of goes against the general idea of his revenge being secondary to Casca (and by extension, to his little "family").

Well, it's not an excuse. It is because the way I go about making my points makes it easy to misinterpret them. I never said anything about Guts not needing to wear the armor when he first got it. You even said yourself that I seem to be overlooking that fact. I wasn't and I never have, plain and simple.

My use of "seem" was purely rhetorical. You did overlook that fact in your argument as you were saying that Guts could remove the armor if he wanted to, but that he just didn't. In fact you even said he should remove it to protect them, which is paradoxical since without wearing it he would have been unable to fight, and thus unable to effectively protect them.

The Beast of Darkness is real...

It doesn't exist outside of Guts' mind.

Um, I did read those episodes... quite recently actually, I bought volume 28 about a week ago. When he fought on the beach it's clear he was struggling to keep it under control but he failed.

Ah, so while he was lying incapacitated, watching his friends about to be trampled by the Makara, he fought the urge to unleash the armor's full power so that he wouldn't go save them? But unfortunately he failed to control it, and went on to save his friends in extremis against his will? Is that what you're saying? If so, I'll have to disagree...

I said Guts is still a hot-headed mercenary at heart, which is true, so yeah I do think you're having a bit of problems understanding things. Either that or you're being argumentative on purpose.

Even if I were being argumentative on purpose, it'd still be factually wrong to say that Guts is a mercenary at heart. If anything, it's one of the things his departure from the Band of the Falcon during the Golden Age arc has shown us. And I hope you won't mind if I find it amusing that you have the gall to tell me I don't understand Guts' psychology, considering the discussion we're having.

Well Berserk is art, and open to external interpretation. I'll agree you have a better interpretation than I do, that doesn't mean I don't understand the story.

Actually, there are some pretty strict limits to how much one can interpret the story without being mistaken about it. It's not an abstract painting. There's a plot and many established facts that create a coherent universe. To imply that Guts doesn't really care about endangering his friends isn't just interpreting the story, it's misinterpreting it. A synonym of "misunderstanding".

Don't be so mean to me.

I'm not mean. I always formulate my responses according to what people post, and this isn't an exception.

 

[Death May Die]

I could see Serpico dying by sacrificing himself for Farnese pretty easy. You know "taking the bullet" kind of way. But maybe that too obvious. He is really the only one I can see dying.