Author Topic: Episode 356  (Read 14048 times)

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Offline Aazealh

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Re: Episode 356
« Reply #75 on: April 26, 2018, 07:25:47 AM »
Something I love about this episode (and the manga as a whole) is the juxtaposition between the more natural appearances/natures of the evil creatures of Fantasia and those of demonkind. They probably didn’t pay it any mind, but I wonder what those giants thought when these surreal/Lovecraftian apostles started coming at them. Dragons must seem painfully banal by comparison.

Void's words to Griffith during the Eclipse ring truer than ever. Using evil power to take their destiny in their own hands.

And Griffith’s looking like a total badass, as usual. A part of me wishes he’d change up his strategy though, but if it ain’t broke don’t fix it, I guess.

Haha, yeah he kind of just always goes straight to the leader and cuts him down as soon as he can. Maximizing efficiency I guess.

Offline DANGERDOOOOM

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Re: Episode 356
« Reply #76 on: April 26, 2018, 11:42:15 AM »
Well we have some returning apostles and a few new ones. I need to update my rogues gallery, but here's what I noticed right away. I apologize for the list of links.


There are quite a few returning apostles from the 'Unleash Evil' battle against the Ganishka spawn. -


Good eye. Very cool to see Miura keeping his creations in canon and not just drawing apostles for dramatic effect and forgetting about them.

Offline Fancypantaloons

Re: Episode 356
« Reply #77 on: April 26, 2018, 06:04:03 PM »
I've now made a few additions to my Recurring Apostle Rogues Gallery as of this recent episode. Miura has started reusing a few designs from the Ganishka battle and the Eclipse. I love how each apostle is individually unique and how each was once human and has a tragic backstory of their own. Amazing designs.

Apostle Rogues Gallery
https://imgur.com/a/ZAp8p

This is quite awesome, thanks for sharing!

Offline Archer1215

Re: Episode 356
« Reply #78 on: April 26, 2018, 06:53:36 PM »
Does anyone have any thoughts about what the context of this battle is? They most likely aren't defending Falconia from these giants, as the Wing Stones should be able to keep these monsters at bay. It could be a scouting expedition, but the battle seems much too organized and planned out for this to be a simple run-in with these creatures. My own thoughts were that this could perhaps be part of a larger campaign to retake Midland territory from the monsters of Fantasia. That way, Griffith could actually have his kingdom before his coronation.

Offline Aazealh

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Re: Episode 356
« Reply #79 on: April 26, 2018, 07:20:25 PM »
My own thoughts were that this could perhaps be part of a larger campaign to retake Midland territory from the monsters of Fantasia. That way, Griffith could actually have his kingdom before his coronation.

That scenario seems quite unlikely to me for a variety of reasons. I don't think Griffith intends to "retake" Midland or anything else. Midland doesn't exist anymore. I would also say that Falconia itself is enough of a kingdom as it is, and that Griffith isn't waiting on having a certain amount of square kilometers under his rule before he's OK with getting a crown. Similarly, I don't think Griffith's (or the God Hand's, or the Idea of Evil's) plans are merely to conquer a certain amount of land.

Offline Archer1215

Re: Episode 356
« Reply #80 on: April 26, 2018, 08:18:33 PM »
That scenario seems quite unlikely to me for a variety of reasons. I don't think Griffith intends to "retake" Midland or anything else. Midland doesn't exist anymore. I would also say that Falconia itself is enough of a kingdom as it is, and that Griffith isn't waiting on having a certain amount of square kilometers under his rule before he's OK with getting a crown. Similarly, I don't think Griffith's (or the God Hand's, or the Idea of Evil's) plans are merely to conquer a certain amount of land.

I'd say it would be more about acquiring legitimacy than fulfilling some big part in the God Hand's plan. That's why he is still marrying Charlotte for her claim and didn't just take the throne as soon as Falconia appeared and there was no place else for his subjects to go. He is still trying to do things traditionally and legitimately because the appeal of the public is a big part of what the God Hand are planning.

On that note, I would contest you on the idea that the kingdom of Midland doesn't exist anymore. Sure, it may not exist as it was before, and may have been swallowed up by Fantasia along with most of human civilization. But the idea of Midland still exists. That was why Griffith went out of his way to save so many Midland nobles and citizens in the first place. Rescuing Charlotte, saving the Midland nobles in Vrittanis, sending that dream to the children in Wyndham to save them from Ganishka's second transformation... all of this was to gain legitimacy as the savior of Midland. Charlotte herself even claims that the Band of the Falcon is now the official army of Midland, which led the charge during the war against the Kushan. That's also why he is still marrying Charlotte, for her claim to the throne of Midland, to foster a sense of legitimacy to his rule. He isn't becoming King of Falconia, he is becoming King of Midland.

On the topic of Falconia being the extent of his new kingdom, I highly doubt that. Gaiseric's lost city of Midland wasn't the extent of his empire, it was his glorious, capital city. I feel that's the same thing Falconia is meant to be. It is the heart and pride of Griffith's kingdom, but it isn't meant to be the extent of it.

As for why Griffith or the God Hand would care about conquering a certain amount of land, it would probably be for the same principle as marrying Charlotte. To give his rule a sense of legitimacy by actually having all or most of Midland under his wing, as well as to give hope to the people of Falconia that the situation of the world could be fought against and triumphed over, which the God Hand could make use of to further influence them for their future plans.

Of course, this is just one idea of why this battle is taking place. It could be something as simple as a scouting expedition. But I think the fact that this battle is even taking place at all is enough to suggest that Griffith's goals lie beyond Falconia. Maybe retaking Midland is only another step, and from there Griffith could begin conquering other countries that are suffering from Fantasia's effects, bringing even more humans under his influence.

Offline Aazealh

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Re: Episode 356
« Reply #81 on: April 26, 2018, 09:48:22 PM »
I'd say it would be more about acquiring legitimacy than fulfilling some big part in the God Hand's plan. That's why he is still marrying Charlotte for her claim and didn't just take the throne as soon as Falconia appeared and there was no place else for his subjects to go. He is still trying to do things traditionally and legitimately because the appeal of the public is a big part of what the God Hand are planning.

I find your argumentation quite puzzling. It sounds ludicrous to me to say Griffith "is trying to do things traditionally" or that he "didn't just take the throne". Like, what? People are living in a giant futuristic city littered with Falcon imagery and Griffith rules over it like a god-king. He commands monsters. People come to watch him bring souls back from the dead at funerals. I think he's got plenty of legitimacy. Let me quote a line from Locus in episode 335, about the divine right of kingship: "the throne is given by the holy hand of God. So a random person is not allowed to covet it." That's what's going on here. The idea that marrying Charlotte is a big deal to solidify Griffith's position is simply laughable. It feels more an item on his checklist of things to have.

On that note, I would contest you on the idea that the kingdom of Midland doesn't exist anymore. Sure, it may not exist as it was before, and may have been swallowed up by Fantasia along with most of human civilization. But the idea of Midland still exists. That was why Griffith went out of his way to save so many Midland nobles and citizens in the first place. Rescuing Charlotte, saving the Midland nobles in Vrittanis, sending that dream to the children in Wyndham to save them from Ganishka's second transformation... all of this was to gain legitimacy as the savior of Midland. Charlotte herself even claims that the Band of the Falcon is now the official army of Midland, which led the charge during the war against the Kushan. That's also why he is still marrying Charlotte, for her claim to the throne of Midland, to foster a sense of legitimacy to his rule. He isn't becoming King of Falconia, he is becoming King of Midland.

Hahaha, you're really presuming a lot of things here. I'd say it's pretty factual that Midland doesn't exist anymore. Neither does Tudor or the Kushan empire. The armies fighting the Jötunn in this episode aren't Midland's armies. They're Falconia's armies. Not sure what "the idea of Midland" is even supposed to mean. As for the conflict with Ganishka... It was rigged from the beginning and had one key objective: the advent of Fantasia. Griffith saved people... so he'd have people to rule.

I feel like you're viewing Falconia in a paradigm that doesn't exist anymore. It reminds me of Locus and Mule's talk from episode 291. While Mule talks about politics, Locus replies: "This kind of trifle affairs that goes on in this world, it is meaningless already. Soon the morning will come. The true sun will illuminate the world." And of course it's exactly what happened. Falconia is not just populated by former Midland inhabitants, it has Kushans and likely people from other countries as well. It's mankind's last bastion. You see Griffith as a man who merely wants to rule an old country while he's a supernatural entity who has brought forth a new world and created his own place to rule in the process. And his goals as a member of the God Hand most-certainly extend beyond just "being king" of some place.

As for why Griffith or the God Hand would care about conquering a certain amount of land, it would probably be for the same principle as marrying Charlotte. To give his rule a sense of legitimacy by actually having all or most of Midland under his wing, as well as to give hope to the people of Falconia that the situation of the world could be fought against and triumphed over, which the God Hand could make use of to further influence them for their future plans.

That's right, the God Hand is all about giving people hope that better days are ahead! And these super powerful archdemons wouldn't want people to view them as illegitimate for not having enough agrarian land... (I am being sarcastic)

Offline Archer1215

Re: Episode 356
« Reply #82 on: April 26, 2018, 11:28:30 PM »
I find your argumentation quite puzzling. It sounds ludicrous to me to say Griffith "is trying to do things traditionally" or that he "didn't just take the throne". Like, what? People are living in a giant futuristic city littered with Falcon imagery and Griffith rules over it like a god-king. He commands monsters. People come to watch him bring souls back from the dead at funerals. I think he's got plenty of legitimacy. Let me quote a line from Locus in episode 335, about the divine right of kingship: "the throne is given by the holy hand of God. So a random person is not allowed to covet it." That's what's going on here. The idea that marrying Charlotte is a big deal to solidify Griffith's position is simply laughable. It feels more an item on his checklist of things to have.

Yeah, and that's the point. He could have taken the throne whenever he wanted to and very few would complain. But he is still doing things legitimately. He is marrying Charlotte for her claim. He is having a coronation ceremony. The reason he is even bringing back these souls from the dead to have a final visit with their loved ones is for PR. That's what all of this is. It's PR. He doesn't want to simply take the throne and be done with it. He wants to keep putting on a show and keep the public in acclaim of him. Part of that is being a borderline religious figure associated with the Holy See. Part of that is being a physical god who leads an army of demons and can perform miracles. Part of that is being the Hero of Midland who had saved the country from both Chuder and the Kushan Empire. And a part of that is becoming king through legitimate means rather than simply taking the power for himself. That's why he is even still marrying Charlotte in the first place. Taking back the territory of Midland that had been lost to Fantasia before becoming king? In this scenario, that would be PR as well, and from there a springboard for whatever his next move is.

Falconia is not just populated by former Midland inhabitants, it has Kushans and likely people from other countries as well. It's mankind's last bastion. You see Griffith as a man who merely wants to rule an old country while he's a supernatural entity who has brought forth a new world and created his own place to rule in the process. And his goals as a member of the God Hand most-certainly extend beyond just "being king" of some place.

He obviously has loftier ambitions than ruling Midland. Which is another part of what I'm saying that you don't seem to understand. I'm not suggesting that the God Hand's motivation is to retake Midland. Their goal clearly involves influencing what's left of humanity in some way. The reclamation of Midland and other foreign nations from the creatures of Fantasia is a part of that. It gives the people of Falconia a unifying purpose and enemy through which they can be manipulated. And any peoples rescued and nations reclaimed would be assimilated into Griffith's kingdom (or empire at this point). So it would be better to say that he wouldn't be restoring Midland to its former glory, but assuming kingship of Midland as the start of something brand new. And by the end, maybe he has what is left of humanity under his wing and all those who had refused to bend to him destroyed. The endgame is all of humanity under the God Hand's influence, and the creation of a new world order with themselves in control of everything.

That's right, the God Hand is all about giving people hope that better days are ahead! And these super powerful archdemons wouldn't want people to view them as illegitimate for not having enough agrarian land... (I am being sarcastic)

Well, like I said, the idea is to feed off of this "hope" (it would be better to call it a "sense of purpose" actually, maybe it was a poor choice of words on my part) to influence them. As in they would view the reclamation of Midland territory as motivation to do the same for the rest of the world. And of course, all of the territory they "free" from Fantasia would be assimilated into Griffith's "kingdom." So it isn't like they would want more "agrarian land" for the purpose of having land. They would want more humans to influence and territory to influence them from.

Offline Faded

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Re: Episode 356
« Reply #83 on: April 27, 2018, 02:56:14 AM »
Archer, my theory is that the reason Griffith is still on the warpath is that he and the god hand have to exterminate all astral creatures / spirit trees. As explained previously in the series after the burning of the spirit tree where Schierke lived, such places are "spiritual parasites" that siphon energy off the world tree. Hypothetically if Griffith wipes out enough of these parasites the world tree can further blossom and fully fuse the astral layers, perhaps allowing the other god hand members to manifest themselves further....or something else we don't know yet.


I also have to side with Aaz on the topic of borders mattering etc. If you fully understood the scope of what happened during the astral blast you would understand that the geo-political makeup of the world is of little importance anymore. You're either with the White Hawk, or you're against him.


Side note:

How fucking cool would it be to see Guts lead an army of astral monsters against Griffiths army of God Hand apostles? I know that's a bit cheesy and over the top but man, what a series of two-page spreads that would make.  :ubik:

Who knows, maybe the next time we check in with Rickert he's invented some kind of steam-punk style mechanical suite that's bad ass enough he can square off with Apostles? :ganishka:

Lets focus on the fascinating speculation, not something lame like Griffith trying to legitimize midland or something boring as hell like that. What is this, 1998? The golden age is over. Time to embrace the future, Archer.  :puck:
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Offline Archer1215

Re: Episode 356
« Reply #84 on: April 27, 2018, 03:11:10 AM »
Lets focus on the fascinating speculation, not something lame like Griffith trying to legitimize midland or something boring as hell like that. What is this, 1998? The golden age is over. Time to embrace the future, Archer.  :puck:

Like I said, it goes beyond restoring Midland to its former glory. The God Hand want to influence humanity, and I believe that giving them a greater purpose in reclaiming the world and a greater enemy in Fantasia ties into that. As far as the God Hand wanting to destroy more of the Spirit Trees and wipe out astral beings and magic users that aren’t affiliated with their faction, then I could definitely see both of those things being bigger steps in their plan or secondary objectives. But to me, it seems as though their ultimate goal involves shaping and controlling the future of the human race. Rebuilding human civilization in their own image to suit their own ends doesn’t sound like much of a stretch to me.

Offline Aazealh

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Re: Episode 356
« Reply #85 on: April 27, 2018, 06:34:21 AM »
Yeah, and that's the point. He could have taken the throne whenever he wanted to and very few would complain.

Griffith is already effectively ruling Falconia, a city-state magically created in his image. The idea that there is a "throne" to "take" by marrying Charlotte is a pretty big misrepresentation of the situation.

Part of that is being a borderline religious figure associated with the Holy See.

He is not a "borderline" religious figure but a literal one.

Chuder

It's "Tudor", not "Chuder". Dark Horse messed up that translation, like many others.

He obviously has loftier ambitions than ruling Midland. Which is another part of what I'm saying that you don't seem to understand. I'm not suggesting that the God Hand's motivation is to retake Midland. Their goal clearly involves influencing what's left of humanity in some way. The reclamation of Midland and other foreign nations from the creatures of Fantasia is a part of that. It gives the people of Falconia a unifying purpose and enemy through which they can be manipulated. And any peoples rescued and nations reclaimed would be assimilated into Griffith's kingdom (or empire at this point).

Strange logic. As far as we know, most of what's left of humanity is holed up in Falconia. Already united, already under Griffith's rule, already with "an enemy" that Falconia's armies are currently fighting in this very episode. There may be stragglers or pockets of survivors, but talk of "reclaiming nations" makes me think you underestimate how big of a change to the world Fantasia was.

So it would be better to say that he wouldn't be restoring Midland to its former glory, but assuming kingship of Midland as the start of something brand new.

Oh so now he's creating a new thing. But then why would it still be called Midland? The core of our argument is that I say Midland doesn't exist anymore and therefore isn't going to be "retaken". You say otherwise, but I'm not seeing any solid evidence to back it up. If Griffith were to formally establish an empire, my guess is it would be called "Falconium" or the "Holy Falcon Empire" or something similar and not "Midland".

The endgame is all of humanity under the God Hand's influence, and the creation of a new world order with themselves in control of everything.

I first theorized this about 10 years ago.

Well, like I said, the idea is to feed off of this "hope" (it would be better to call it a "sense of purpose" actually, maybe it was a poor choice of words on my part) to influence them. As in they would view the reclamation of Midland territory as motivation to do the same for the rest of the world. And of course, all of the territory they "free" from Fantasia would be assimilated into Griffith's "kingdom." So it isn't like they would want more "agrarian land" for the purpose of having land. They would want more humans to influence and territory to influence them from.

Yes, I would say it was a poor choice of words. And I also don't think this supports your assertion about Midland. That Falconia might be on a mission to exterminate all non-human creatures in the world is something I also happened to theorize many many years ago, but that doesn't necessarily mean the re-establishment of former nations. For one thing that's because there just aren't enough people left to populate them as far as we know. Another reason is that barring the construction of giant walls or the creation of apostle garrisons in every village, there would be no way to protect "liberated" outposts from raids.

How fucking cool would it be to see Guts lead an army of astral monsters against Griffiths army of God Hand apostles? I know that's a bit cheesy and over the top but man, what a series of two-page spreads that would make.  :ubik:

Well he's already got the merrows on his side. :iva:

Offline saaken

Re: Episode 356
« Reply #86 on: April 27, 2018, 07:21:48 AM »
Archer, my theory is that the reason Griffith is still on the warpath is that he and the god hand have to exterminate all astral creatures / spirit trees. As explained previously in the series after the burning of the spirit tree where Schierke lived, such places are "spiritual parasites" that siphon energy off the world tree. Hypothetically if Griffith wipes out enough of these parasites the world tree can further blossom and fully fuse the astral layers, perhaps allowing the other god hand members to manifest themselves further....or something else we don't know yet.


I also have to side with Aaz on the topic of borders mattering etc. If you fully understood the scope of what happened during the astral blast you would understand that the geo-political makeup of the world is of little importance anymore. You're either with the White Hawk, or you're against him.


Side note:

How fucking cool would it be to see Guts lead an army of astral monsters against Griffiths army of God Hand apostles? I know that's a bit cheesy and over the top but man, what a series of two-page spreads that would make.  :ubik:

Who knows, maybe the next time we check in with Rickert he's invented some kind of steam-punk style mechanical suite that's bad ass enough he can square off with Apostles? :ganishka:

Lets focus on the fascinating speculation, not something lame like Griffith trying to legitimize midland or something boring as hell like that. What is this, 1998? The golden age is over. Time to embrace the future, Archer.  :puck:



your ideas are interesting .But are you sure all astral creatures can be killed? i'm not so sure, maybe others can keep re spawning, these are ethereal creatures after all. Continuously flooded by humans subconscious.

And if as you said the objective is to let the spirit tree merge entirely with the real world, doesn't that mean that all creatures , even the ones that exist in the deepest layers will be allowed to roam around in the physical world.
I think that is one of the objectives of the Idea of evil, to allow the spiritual world to take place entirely in the physical one? Maybe so that griffith can subject some of them.
I also think that midland doesn't matter anymore, it's about humanity, leaded by the griffith against the astral creatures and magic users  and of course the people who know the truth about griffith.

Offline Aazealh

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Re: Episode 356
« Reply #87 on: April 27, 2018, 08:30:27 AM »
But are you sure all astral creatures can be killed? i'm not so sure, maybe others can keep re spawning, these are ethereal creatures after all. Continuously flooded by humans subconscious.

This is a good point and one I've also been thinking about. We don't know exactly how astral creatures are created. I speculated about it on the previous page of this thread, but we don't have any hard certainties. So can they truly be exterminated once and for all, or would more of them appear over time? Hard to say, but I think part of the God Hand's ultimate goal might involve the disruption of their creation process (which I don't believe is just a matter of being present in people's subconscious).

And if as you said the objective is to let the spirit tree merge entirely with the real world, doesn't that mean that all creatures , even the ones that exist in the deepest layers will be allowed to roam around in the physical world.

It's another one of those things that's hard to evaluate for now: the extent to which the worlds have been merged and can merge. Personally I don't think that the world could really be "flattened" in a way where you'd find one of the beings Schierke summons next to a deer in the woods. There might be more "bridges" or connections though.

Offline Bohdan

Re: Episode 356
« Reply #88 on: April 27, 2018, 12:26:50 PM »
If I understand it correctly, God Hand and the force behind it can and want to control only humankind, yes? If so, it probably means that they would rather get rid off opposing forces (such as astral creatures) but that's something that has been said already. What I am curious about is if Guts is going to receive a quest from a higher being to oppose God Hand in a manner that he wouldn't decline it. I can't see Guts and Casca leaving Elfhelm on their own just because they want it (and why would they want that exactly?), there has to be another, external thing to influence and guide them to a new thing. This might be a good place to introduce the in-depth agenda of God Hand from the other, opposing side. I am not so sure if we are going to see God Hand now with Griffith episodes although I can see them being mentioned. What if other God Hand members do the same thing as Griffith in other parts of the world (for efficiency)?

Offline NCHaskew

Re: Episode 356
« Reply #89 on: April 27, 2018, 01:46:51 PM »
Personally I don't think that the world could really be "flattened" in a way where you'd find one of the beings Schierke summons next to a deer in the woods. There might be more "bridges" or connections though.

Yeah, I also don't think the worlds could merge that completely--although how horrifying would it be to see Griffith go toe-to-toe with the Four Kings  :isidro: Although that may be a little too shonen.

Also, as far as this whole squabble over the reclamation of Midland and Griffith's plans and all that, I think it's just as simple as Griffith has been destined to rule the world since he came into possession of the egg of the king. Or because he was destined, it came into his possession--however you want to view it. At this point, he effectively does rule the world, but we don't know how many other pockets of survivors there are throughout the world. There could even be several places like Elfhelm where Griffith's influence has yet to really take effect.

So I think Griffith's military campaigns are less a reconquista of Midland's territory, and more the final conquest of the rest of the world. And/or Griffith's victory lap since, if these giants are any indication, the battles up ahead are less a battle and more an extermination.  :ganishka:

Offline Aazealh

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Re: Episode 356
« Reply #90 on: April 27, 2018, 02:10:25 PM »
If I understand it correctly, God Hand and the force behind it can and want to control only humankind, yes?

Well that's just a theory. We don't actually know what their goal is. But yeah, the idea I originally put forth (long ago) was that there would end up being a conflict between mankind and the rest of the world. The Idea of Evil, the God Hand and the apostles are all created using human-based magic (evil power from "bad" human souls). There's a fundamental difference between their nature and that of elemental magic like what Schierke uses. Given what we know of the Idea of Evil's creation from episode 83 and from the nature of the God Hand, it makes sense to assume they intend to create a world where they control everything. And to achieve that it stands to reason they'd need to eradicate any potential opposing force. That also works with what we're told about Griffith and the fact Flora was a bigger danger to him than any army.

What I am curious about is if Guts is going to receive a quest from a higher being to oppose God Hand in a manner that he wouldn't decline it.  I can't see Guts and Casca leaving Elfhelm on their own just because they want it (and why would they want that exactly?), there has to be another, external thing to influence and guide them to a new thing.

Haha, Guts isn't a game character, so I don't expect him to "receive a quest" or anything like that. However I do think they will be forced on that path by external forces. Do note though that they already have incentives to leave Elfhelm and confront Griffith. Time flows differently in Elfhelm and staying there isn't recommended, and their son's fate is directly tied to that of Griffith.

This might be a good place to introduce the in-depth agenda of God Hand from the other, opposing side. I am not so sure if we are going to see God Hand now with Griffith episodes although I can see them being mentioned. What if other God Hand members do the same thing as Griffith in other parts of the world (for efficiency)?

It certainly would be cool to know more about what the other members of the God Hand are doing. Their role going forward is still very nebulous. Who knows, maybe the ominous shadow Sonia mentions is really... Conrad?!  :isidro: :iva:

how horrifying would it be to see Griffith go toe-to-toe with the Four Kings  :isidro: Although that may be a little too shonen.

Yeahhhh, I don't see that happening. Not Berserk's style and would just be lame. I would however like to see Schierke calling down that spell and see a member of the God Hand just "take it" without being too perturbed. "That's the best you got?" :daiba:

I think it's just as simple as Griffith has been destined to rule the world since he came into possession of the egg of the king. Or because he was destined, it came into his possession--however you want to view it.

Yeah, if you want to be really precise, Griffith was destined to do all this from the moment he was born because his entire being was crafted for this express purpose by the Idea of Evil. The crimson beherit was just a means for him to become Femto when the moment came, nothing more. And his role as part of the God Hand, to be their vanguard in the corporeal world, had also been decided and planned for long before his birth.

So I think Griffith's military campaigns are less a reconquista of Midland's territory, and more the final conquest of the rest of the world. And/or Griffith's victory lap since, if these giants are any indication, the battles up ahead are less a battle and more an extermination.

Agreed, although let's not forget that we don't know yet what's actually going on here. There could be a specific goal to that sortie other than conquest or extermination, for example to obtain, rescue, capture or destroy something.

Offline Faded

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Re: Episode 356
« Reply #91 on: April 27, 2018, 03:17:35 PM »
Saaken,

Regarding astral creatures "re-spawning" I'm as stumped as you are.

Is there another force at work that we haven't yet discovered, that are conjuring these creatures from the deeper layers ? Maybe that's the strange shadow that Sonia sensed lurking in the woods behind the Giant King?

I'm very excited to see the next few episodes, no matter the POV.
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Offline saaken

Re: Episode 356
« Reply #92 on: April 27, 2018, 04:39:10 PM »
Saakan,

Regarding astral creatures "re-spawning" I'm as stumped as you are.

Is there another force we haven't met yet at work that we haven't yet discovered, that are conjuring these creatures from the deeper layers ? Maybe that's the strange shadow that Sonia sensed lurking in the woods behind the Giant King?

I'm very excited to see the next few episodes, no matter the POV.

yes there is still a lot to discover.  Maybe it is some force fueled by something that even the idea of evil and the god hand can't control.

Maybe it's part of the plan and a risk that had to be taken in order for griffith to have his own kingdom, the world is in the age of darkness anyway isn't it? and griffith is following the laws of causality so maybe he clearly knows what he is doing even if the force can't be controlled.
As mentioned by flora , what lies in the deepest layers is something that surpasses human imagination so i don't know how it could materialize in the real world. Maybe it will represent an even greater foe for griffith and his army.

Offline Squiddot

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Re: Episode 356
« Reply #93 on: April 27, 2018, 04:48:20 PM »
As mentioned by flora , what lies in the deepest layers is something that surpasses human imagination so i don't know how it could materialize in the real world. Maybe it will represent an even greater foe for griffith and his army.

General consensus is this being is whatever surviving remnants of the "Idea of Evil" Miura has decided to keep from the lost episode.

But all this talk of the God Hand's end goal got me thinking... We've seen the Berserk world evolve from a state of small pockets of confined magic and low level spiritual entities to a much deeper level of more powerful spirits and monsters as part of the God Hand's plan. As we know, the deepest level of the astral world is the abyss, which also appears to be associated with the God Hand. So maybe the ultimate goal is to continue to grind these two worlds together, reaching deeper and deeper levels, until the abyss of souls displaces physical reality itself, swallowing everything. Though i'll admit something of this level would probably require a second astral explosion so the odds are slim, at least with the rules we're currently shown.

Offline saaken

Re: Episode 356
« Reply #94 on: April 27, 2018, 05:05:37 PM »
General consensus is this being is whatever surviving remnants of the "Idea of Evil" Miura has decided to keep from the lost episode.

But all this talk of the God Hand's end goal got me thinking... We've seen the Berserk world evolve from a state of small pockets of confined magic and low level spiritual entities to a much deeper level of more powerful spirits and monsters as part of the God Hand's plan. As we know, the deepest level of the astral world is the abyss, which also appears to be associated with the God Hand. So maybe the ultimate goal is to continue to grind these two worlds together, reaching deeper and deeper levels, until the abyss of souls displaces physical reality itself, swallowing everything. Though i'll admit something of this level would probably require a second astral explosion so the odds are slim, at least with the rules we're currently shown.

it's a possibility, but how about humans, will they be able to survive in a completely distorted reality?  in a world that goes beyond human imagination?  Griffith wanted a kingdom to rule upon,can it be possible in a transcendental world?

with your hypothesis,maybe the god hand would want the worlds merging together to the extent where humans can still feel that they're on earth. With the unpleasantness it produces, that is more and more powerful astral creatures to deal with .

Offline Aazealh

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Re: Episode 356
« Reply #95 on: April 27, 2018, 05:33:19 PM »
Is there another force we haven't met yet at work that we haven't yet discovered, that are conjuring these creatures from the deeper layers ? Maybe that's the strange shadow that Sonia sensed lurking in the woods behind the Giant King?

That seems pretty unlikely to me. When the Blast of the Astral World happened we saw astral creatures just instantly appear in the world (sometimes alongside a fantastical scenary). That's what the merging of the worlds refers to. Not only do I doubt that whatever's hiding in the bushes is summoning giants from somewhere else, but I don't think giants come from "deeper layers" to begin with.

General consensus is this being is whatever surviving remnants of the "Idea of Evil" Miura has decided to keep from the lost episode.

For the record, Saaken's quote of Flora is inaccurate, but yes, the Abyss is where the Idea of Evil dwells, and Flora does pretty clearly allude to it. And as a reminder the Idea of Evil also appears in episode 82.

So maybe the ultimate goal is to continue to grind these two worlds together, reaching deeper and deeper levels, until the abyss of souls displaces physical reality itself, swallowing everything. Though i'll admit something of this level would probably require a second astral explosion so the odds are slim, at least with the rules we're currently shown.

It's just the Abyss, not Abyss of Souls. Also, I honestly don't see how "flattening" the worlds so that everything ends up in the great oceans of souls (of which the Vortex of the Souls is a part) would work or make sense.

it's a possibility, but how about humans, will they be able to survive in a completely distorted reality?

Not with what Squiddot proposes, obviously.

Offline Faded

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Re: Episode 356
« Reply #96 on: April 27, 2018, 07:37:25 PM »
That seems pretty unlikely to me. When the Blast of the Astral World happened we saw astral creatures just instantly appear in the world (sometimes alongside a fantastical scenary). That's what the merging of the worlds refers to. Not only do I doubt that whatever's hiding in the bushes is summoning giants from somewhere else, but I don't think giants come from "deeper layers" to begin with.

Touché. Maybe its the parasitical spirit trees that are spawning these astral creatures, like you say a lot of the creatures we saw just "appear" seemed to come from deep within forests in the panels of the manga. That's purely an anecdotal observation on my part, but maybe we're onto something here.



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"Man wields the sword so that he may die smiling in some far-off time beyond perception."

Offline Walter

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Re: Episode 356
« Reply #97 on: April 27, 2018, 07:54:06 PM »
Touché. Maybe its the parasitical spirit trees that are spawning these astral creatures,

I think you've got a fundamental misunderstanding of how those trees function. They inhibit the layer-spanning nature of the World Tree. From Ged (ep 345): "They play the role of preventing the branches from extending into "this world" by absorbing the power from the "World Tree".
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Offline Aazealh

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Re: Episode 356
« Reply #98 on: April 27, 2018, 08:01:39 PM »
Maybe its the parasitical spirit trees that are spawning these astral creatures, like you say a lot of the creatures we saw just "appear" seemed to come from deep within forests in the panels of the manga. That's purely an anecdotal observation on my part, but maybe we're onto something here.

I don't think so either. The trees (most of which have been destroyed) had a pretty specific purpose and it wasn't at all related to "spawning" astral creatures. They were like a safety mechanism, syphoning power off of the World Spiral Tree and therefore preventing it from linking the astral and corporeal worlds together too strongly. They were also guarded by powerful magic users, like Flora.

That aside, there's no mystery as to why we saw astral creatures appear suddenly with the advent of Fantasia. It's because the corporeal world and the astral world were merged. These creatures were already roaming the land... in the astral world. So humans couldn't see them and vice versa. That changed with Fantasia.

As for how astral beings are created, we don't know. I've speculated a bit about it in this thread on the previous page, if you're interested, but the short version is we don't know. The only place where we've seen astral creatures being spawned so far is the Qliphoth, and that was under very special circumstances.

Offline Faded

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Re: Episode 356
« Reply #99 on: April 27, 2018, 10:44:23 PM »
I think you've got a fundamental misunderstanding of how those trees function. They inhibit the layer-spanning nature of the World Tree. From Ged (ep 345): "They play the role of preventing the branches from extending into "this world" by absorbing the power from the "World Tree".

Yeah I readily admit that I didn't exactly know how those trees work. That's why I was using words like "maybe" . I was just throwing something against the wall there. Thanks for sharing your wisdom though, I will eventually read the entire manga enough times to be able to pull direct quotes with ease haha. I'm only part way through my 3rd re-read and it shows in my posts.  :farnese:

Also, I'll check out those posts of yours Aaz. I'm fascinated by the whole concept of the world tree and the astral layers. Do you guys have  a specific podcast you could recommend where you all just spitball about how the Berserk universe works post astral-blast? I could listen to  that kind of speculation for hours.
"Man takes up the sword in order to shield the small wound in his heart sustained during a far-off time beyond remembrance."

"Man wields the sword so that he may die smiling in some far-off time beyond perception."