Episode 362

[Walter]

I'm not so sure the last vision of him holding the woman was the exact moment he died, unless his heart gave out, or something. The timeline of those visions is a bit confusing, but I don't think they necessarily happened in the same exact order Guts sees them in.

A few things stand in the way of that interpretation. The first is the black eyes, which on its own could have simply been a way to demonstrate the end of the memory. But, added to Guts' words (my own translation): Just then, that was for sure 'the end.' And then SK's own words: What you saw was the end of the foolish king. The beginning of a dead man’s endless wandering of the night. It all adds up to what sounds a lot like Gaiseric's death in that scene, with his eyes closing while holding the branded woman.

 

[Griffith]

I'm personally onboard with the idea that all the Godhand we see here are ascending or have ascended to Godhand status at the same time.

I'm still conflicted, I kind of want them to have already existed to add more unknown history to the group, and because it would feel cheap if these guys sort of literally and figuratively came an went, but then as some say it's a bit of a zero sum game where otherwise they'd kind of make the current God Hand seem like merely the latest rather than the chosen ones, and if you're choosing you want the actual active villains to get the enhanced reputation than vice versa. In the case of Void, I think any scenario is cool, whether he was there from the beginning, pre-existing the rest or not, or was new, but in any case managed to be the sole survivor that lead them back to this point, it all only adds to his legend.

BTW, we should also note this is the first time it's been confirmed, technically not true but suggested or implied isn't strong enough, God Hand truly can and have been killed before, and at least Void, but presumably the rest and figures like Zodd, know it (thus the need for Apostles to protect and project their influence). Not only is Guts' goal no longer seemingly impossible, but has achieved precedent. So, in any case the God Hand have been revealed to be more vulnerable than previously known.

One topic I haven't seen too many people talking about is when the typically red eyes of the Berserker armor went dark or "turned off" so to speak. This happened at the exact moment Gaiseric dies during the flash back and Guts is then only brought back by Schierke. Could it be that the armor showing Guts Gaiseric's death also in a way made Guts experience the death for himself?

Yeah, I thought the same thing; did Guts just experience death through Skully?

Another interesting thing to look out for is Schierke seemingly experienced the memory at the end, and "touched" Gaiseric, as well. So, she may have questions or insights to add.

Yeah, let's not even start on how we now know that Gaiseric died 1000+ years ago in the berserker armor, yet 300 year-old Zodd immediately recognizes it as his old armor.

We don't precisely know that Zodd is only 300, though that's a number he's citedfor his journey killing, and how far back his reputation precedes him in Midland according to the old Falcons (maybe that was just 100). Anyway, he could have just learned, or surmised, this second hand. I also wouldn't be surprised to learn he's older, even if it's technically a retcon (it wouldn't be the first thing to evolve differently than it began from the Golden Age Arc).

That's an interesting idea, but I'm not so sure the last vision of him holding the woman was the exact moment he died, unless his heart gave out, or something.

He bled to death because of the armor; note the streams of blood increasingly filling his vision as he sees, presumably, his woman and his city die. It would also be weird if they said "here's when he died," the armor simulated a state of death, or deactivation in its case, but it was only a coincidence the armor went into sleep mode then.

The timeline of those visions is a bit confusing, but I don't think they necessarily happened in the same exact order Guts sees them in.

I think the order is correct, but we're clearly missing something in-between; whether that represents a major time skip between two separate events or most simply a transition between whatever ceremony was taking place and the aftermath, much like the first Beherit ceremony we witness with the Count. For example, perhaps Void was reborn at the tower of Albion, struck out at Gaiseric, Gaiseric responds with the armor, but Void initiates the mother of all advent ceremonies to bring the initial God Hand and Apostles into existence, Gaiseric and his allies kill most of them in the ensuing battle and drive the remaining away, but he succumbs to his injuries.

 

[Victor]

A few things stand in the way of that interpretation. The first is the black eyes, which on its own could have simply been a way to demonstrate the end of the memory. But, added to Guts' words (my own translation): Just then, that was for sure 'the end.' And then SK's own words: What you saw was the end of the foolish king. The beginning of a dead man’s endless wandering of the night. It all adds up to what sounds a lot like Gaiseric's death in that scene, with his eyes closing while holding the branded woman.

It's very possible, taking a closer look, that black frame does seem to be closing in slightly. The dialogue is also a good point, and something I ommited.

He bled to death because of the armor;

Yeah, I've just been running through my head some of the possible ways he could have died, and I think loss of blood is very likely and would fit with what we already know. I guess I've just always pictured him dying in the heat of battle, rather than bleeding out after the fact.

note the streams of blood increasingly filling his vision as he sees, presumably, his woman die and his city burn.

Hm, are those streams of blood? At first I thought it's the effect the armor had on his vision.

It would also be weird if they said "here's when he died," the armor simulated a state of death, or deactivation in its case, but it was only a coincidence the armor went into sleep mode then.

I'm not saying it was a coincidence, just that it could have been used more as a way to contrast between the first scene where it was going wild and the second, where things became very sombre and quiet. Taking into account all of the above, I guess it could have signified the death of the wearer as well.

 

[Walter]

Yeah, I've just been running through my head some of the possible ways he could have died, and I think loss of blood is very likely and would fit with what we already know. I guess I've just always pictured him dying in the heat of battle, rather than bleeding out after the fact.

If you'll recall, it's precisely what Schierke says about the former armor's owner in Volume 27 (while showing a little silhouette of it happening).

 

[Victor]

If you'll recall, it's precisely what Schierke says about the former armor's owner in Volume 26 (while showing a little silhouette of it happening).

Yep, that's what I was reffering to. I guess it makes sense in the end, my bad. That silhouette more than anything made me think he had somewhat of a more brutal death.

 

[Branded_Saiyan27]

but I'm not so sure the last vision of him holding the woman was the exact moment he died, unless his heart gave out, or something.

I guess I interpreted the last part of the flash back where we see from Gaiseric's point of view the woman in his arms dead, and blood (or maybe sweat?) beginning to poor over his eyes (much like Guts during the eclipse) as it shuts as him dying. I imagine this scene taking place after a battle that had exhausted him to the point of death, but who knows, that's just my initial impression.

You are correct on the timeline of things not being clear. Many have speculated that the first flash back could have been Void's ascension to Godhand, or all 5 of their ascensions at the same time. But I think they had probably already had their ceremonies at that point and I don't believe it to be the equivalent of an eclipse event. The woman who is branded, I believe was branded before the first flash back, during Void's eclipse ceremony. Just a guess.

For example, perhaps Void was reincarnated at the tower of Albion, struck out at Gaiseric, Gaiseric responds with the armor, but Void initiates the mother of all advent ceremonies to bring the initial God Hand and Apostles into existence, Gaiseric and his allies kill most of them in the ensuing battle and drive the remaining away, but he succumbs to his injuries.

Oh I like this theory. But if he's reincarnated who/where is his human form? It also begs the question how the woman got her brand. I really do believe that in the final flash back they are indeed back in the corpreal world, so how did she escape an eclipse? Was Gaiseric part of said eclipse and is he branded as well?

Another theory I thought of is the wise man could be Void in his reincarnated form already. If Void indeed has been reincarnated before.

There are so many damn questions around this episode!!

 

[Aazealh]

I guess I interpreted the last part of the flash back where we see from Gaiseric's point of view the woman in his arms dead, and blood (or maybe sweat?) beginning to poor over his eyes (much like Guts during the eclipse) as it shuts as him dying. I imagine this scene taking place after a battle that had exhausted him to the point of death, but who knows, that's just my initial impression.

Everything indicates that he dies at that point. Including the title of the episode.

I don't believe it to be the equivalent of an eclipse event. The woman who is branded, I believe was branded before the first flash back, during Void's eclipse ceremony. Just a guess.

I really have a hard time believing that scene of Gaiseric fighting proto-apostles in a surreal dimension while Void and four other evil beings watch smugly isn't a ceremony of the same magnitude as Griffith's Occultation ceremony.

But if he's reincarnated who/where is his human form? It also begs the question how the woman got her brand. I really do believe that in the final flash back they are indeed back in the corpreal world, so how did she escape an eclipse? Was Gaiseric part of said eclipse and is he branded as well? Another theory I thought of is the wise man could be Void in his reincarnated form already. If Void indeed has been reincarnated before.

This isn't just directed at you but I don't even know what you guys mean by "reincarnated" here. When a human becomes a member of the God Hand, the wording used is that they're reborn, or a new being is born. Then when a member of the God Hand acquires a physical body (a very rare event), it's an incarnation (a spirit receiving a fleshly body). A reincarnation is a slightly different thing, it's when a soul leaves a corporeal body for another one. Can seem like a minute difference but it's better to be precise to avoid confusion. Anyway, it's not hard to think of ways the woman could have been branded while escaping from the ceremony, especially since she died in Gaiseric's arms.

 

[Branded_Saiyan27]

I really have a hard time believing that scene of Gaiseric fighting proto-apostles in a surreal dimension while Void and four other evil beings watch smugly isn't a ceremony of the same magnitude as Griffith's Occultation ceremony.

I'm trying to remember...when the count's behelit was activated after fighting Guts, it wasn't necessarily an eclipse. The vortex of souls was there (much like the event were seeing now) and the landscape was a series of stairs and corridors.

I'm thinking what we just saw could be an event similar to that one? Idk, to me it just didn't seem like any particular one of them had just became a God Hand member. I could be totally wrong, I have more questions than answers after this episode thats for sure.

 

[Aazealh]

I'm trying to remember...when the count's behelit was activated after fighting Guts, it wasn't necessarily an eclipse. The vortex of souls was there (much like the event were seeing now) and the landscape was a series of stairs and corridors.

Yeah I'm well aware. But the situation seems different. At the time, Guts piggy-backed on an apostle who through extraordinary circumstances was given the chance to be rejunevated by making another sacrifice. However, in this scene Gaiseric is facing Void and the others, who stand on an altar, and a multitude of creatures are coming at him. It just doesn't feel like the same scenario.

I'm thinking what we just saw could be an event similar to that one? Idk, to me it just didn't seem like any particular one of them had just became a God Hand member. I could be totally wrong, I have more questions than answers after this episode thats for sure.

It's possible and I've thought of it, but it's not a perfect match, like I said above. In any case it's clear that ceremony is unique compared to those we've known so far.

 

[Bonesaw]

Hey guys, first post here. I've been lurking these forums for like 5 years now and don't usually have much to contribute, but I'd like to say I really enjoy reading the discussions you guys have/have had here about the series.

As for 362, I only have a few of minor thoughts I haven't really noticed anyone bring up yet.

This may just be due to a poor assumption on my part, but I was always under the impression that Skull Knight only began using the Berserker Armor AFTER he presumably encountered the God Hand and his empire fell. Here we're shown that he not only already had the armor, but that this was also the point where it actually consumed him. The question I have now is, was he using it prior to all this? If so, how long had he been using it for? My thinking here is that, if he was using it for a long time, could it have even been an important factor in the formation of his empire?

Then, the page with the "proto-apostles" had me a bit confused at first as to what was exactly was happening there. Clearly it's the appearance of many apostle-like beings, but it does seem strange compared to every thing we've seen so far. The first panel where we see them emerging from uh "openings", they all look pretty similar (covered in long shaggy hair, long bendy arms) with the only identifiers being their heads/mouths. The second panel is almost the same as the first but they all appear to be taking on unique forms and are starting to look a little more familiar. By the third and fourth panels we have what look like regular, fully formed apostles. I'm gonna borrow from Aazealh's theory about multiple God Hand members being born at once, and say that what we might be seeing there is the birth (and death) of many new apostles. We've seen apostles transform many times, whereas I don't think we've ever directly seen the birth of one.

I can't think of any glaring issues with either of these notions myself, and for all I know, the first bit could have been brought up already in a thread from years ago I haven't read, but I'm very interested to hear some thoughts.

 

[Aazealh]

Congrats on your first post Bonesaw!

The question I have now is, was he using it prior to all this? If so, how long had he been using it for? My thinking here is that, if he was using it for a long time, could it have even been an important factor in the formation of his empire?

It's impossible at this point to say how long he had been using the armor. I'm going to guess that it wasn't decades. But he indeed was already using it, as this episode attests. I don't find it surprising because for him to survive an event on the scale of an Eclipse without any aid would have been exceedingly difficult. As for the role it played in the formation of his empire... Again, it's hard to say at this point. Were all his exploits thanks to the Berserk's armor? I don't think so. I think he was a great warrior who eventually received that armor, either as a gift or because he had requested it to be made. Those details will be revealed to us in due time. Perhaps as soon as the next episode.

Then, the page with the "proto-apostles" had me a bit confused at first as to what was exactly was happening there. Clearly it's the appearance of many apostle-like beings, but it does seem strange compared to every thing we've seen so far. The first panel where we see them emerging from uh "openings", they all look pretty similar (covered in long shaggy hair, long bendy arms) with the only identifiers being their heads/mouths. The second panel is almost the same as the first but they all appear to be taking on unique forms and are starting to look a little more familiar. By the third and fourth panels we have what look like regular, fully formed apostles. I'm gonna borrow from Aazealh's theory about multiple God Hand members being born at once, and say that what we might be seeing there is the birth (and death) of many new apostles.

I don't think they're transforming from panel to panel, we probably just get a more detailed look as they get closer. Still, they are odd creatures, and it's a deliberate choice by Miura. I think it's also deliberate that we just aren't quite sure at this point. That said, they definitely aren't being "born" here in the same way the apostles we know are. That involves a human using a beherit, being brought to the God Hand along with someone they wish to offer as a sacrifice, and then receiving evil power that twists their soul and transforms their body. I'm still working on a post to try and explore various scenarios based on this episode, but haven't had much time to work on it. Will try and get it done this week-end.

 

[UMV]

Like Bonesaw, I've been a lurker for years, but this episode was just too much to ignore. A question I haven't seen anyone ask yet thats really bothering me, what is Gaiseric's weapon? Obviously can't be the Dragonslayer, and I don't see it being just a regular ol' longsword

 

[Aazealh]

A question I haven't seen anyone ask yet thats really bothering me, what is Gaiseric's weapon? Obviously can't be the Dragonslayer, and I don't see it being just a regular ol' longsword

Presumably either the sword he's currently using or another one similar to it. Personally I think it would be cool if the sword Casca was given had once belonged to Gaiseric. It's just wishful thinking at this point though.

 

[Keratos]

A question I haven't seen anyone ask yet thats really bothering me, what is Gaiseric's weapon?

Spoiler

Well, assuming that's Gaiseric in this panel (And also that this isn't just Schierke making it up from the stories she heard), the sword he was using before he died looked kinda like the one he's using now, just less… thorny.

 

[Cyrus Jong]

Well, just wait a minute here. I don't see no hand anywhere. Who's saying they didn't go by another name?

Yeah, you're right. No hand motifs and no one's showing any anyway. They probably had to think of a name for their merry band, and the conversation most definitely went something like this:

Void: Foolish king. You have no hope of stopping us. For we are the true arbiters of Causality! We are unstoppable! We are...Void and the Blowfish!

Crystal Beardy: Wait, why are we naming our band after you? And blowfish? Seriously? Weren't we going to call ourselves ZZ Gods?

Vaggie Head: Hmph, I still think we should have gone with Pussyhole Surfers.

Booberella: Pussies! That's all you ever think about is pussies, pussies, pussies! Anyway, I distinctly remember we voted on the Booberella Experience.

Big Mouth: No! Ve are either the Fantastic Fantabulous Tragedians From Far Up High Fortubulain, or I am valking!

I'm trying to remember...when the count's behelit was activated after fighting Guts, it wasn't necessarily an eclipse. The vortex of souls was there (much like the event were seeing now) and the landscape was a series of stairs and corridors.

I'm thinking what we just saw could be an event similar to that one? Idk, to me it just didn't seem like any particular one of them had just became a God Hand member. I could be totally wrong, I have more questions than answers after this episode thats for sure.

Eclipses are only required for ceremonies involving the making of a new God Hand; normal Apostles can pretty much be made at any time (time and place dictated by Causality notwithstanding). The reasons for this have never really been elaborated on, though if I were to hazard a guess, it would be that the solar eclipse that occurs once every 216 years is the only period of time where the necessary magical energies needed for the transformation can be generated or enhanced, similar to how the full moon enhances the effects of magic. Since magic was more commonplace and the physical and astral worlds were more closely aligned during Gaiseric's time, it was probably much easier to transform a person (or several persons) into a member of God Hand (or whatever the equivalent could be called). That's my speculation for why we see no dying sun here, anyway.

 

[Griffith]

I'm trying to remember...when the count's behelit was activated after fighting Guts, it wasn't necessarily an eclipse. The vortex of souls was there (much like the event were seeing now) and the landscape was a series of stairs and corridors.

But the situation seems different. At the time, Guts piggy-backed on an apostle who through extraordinary circumstances was given the chance to be rejunevated by making another sacrifice. However, in this scene Gaiseric is facing Void and the others, who stand on an altar, and a multitude of creatures are coming at him. It just doesn't feel like the same scenario.

It's possible and I've thought of it, but it's not a perfect match, like I said above. In any case it's clear that ceremony is unique compared to those we've known so far.

My sentiments are with Aaz on this, but it's definitely worth entertaining some weird possibilities since everything doesn't quite add up yet. The circumstances of these events could be even more unique and extraordinary than we can imagine precisely because we're trying to make them fit in ways that already make sense to us, when the circumstances could be different from anything we've seen thus far. Basically, we can only go so far guessing based on extrapolation, we need a creative, Aaz-like leap of inspiration, which I'm sure he'll provide in his BIG post on the subject. No pressure.

It's impossible at this point to say how long he had been using the armor. I'm going to guess that it wasn't decades. But he indeed was already using it, as this episode attests. I don't find it surprising because for him to survive an event on the scale of an Eclipse without any aid would have been exceedingly difficult. As for the role it played in the formation of his empire... Again, it's hard to say at this point. Were all his exploits thanks to the Berserk's armor? I don't think so. I think he was a great warrior who eventually received that armor, either as a gift or because he had requested it to be made. Those details will be revealed to us in due time. Perhaps as soon as the next episode.

I do wonder just how much Skully's journey parallels Guts' before he became Skull Knight, like was he involved in multiple skirmishes against the God Hand already, did he have the Berserk's armor already or get it specifically to fight them, etc? Maybe it all happened in one cataclysmic event like the one we're seeing, or perhaps there were others before and after. And, as Skully or not, what if these God Hand weren't all killed at once? Was there ever an awkward in-between group? "Hey guys, I know we're all still sad we lost Clortho, but say hi to the new guy, Ubik!" )

Still, they are odd creatures, and it's a deliberate choice by Miura. I think it's also deliberate that we just aren't quite sure at this point. That said, they definitely aren't being "born" here in the same way the apostles we know are.

They're a bit reminiscent of the creatures during Ganishka's last stand and the merging of the world, at least superficially (not saying a ton since they're all Miura-Monsters =). It's not the only parallel as others have noticed though, and there's of course a decent possibility, as you've mentioned, that this is around the time the worlds were separated. It is interesting that the same "branding of the world" took place as well; did that symbolize the end of the merged world at the time as the more recent incarnation represented the end of the one before Femto's incarnation? That could be a motivation to sacrifice the capital, or the world as they knew it then. Unfortunately, it all feels rather weak and muddled without more to go on.

Well, assuming that's Gaiseric in this panel (And also that this isn't just Schierke making it up from the stories she heard), the sword he was using before he died looked kinda like the one he's using now, just less… thorny.

Good callback, especially since it already came up once today. Of course, no woman in his arms, but he was probably stumbling to her at the time. =)

 

[BrsrkFreak216]

I was rereading the part when the gang arrive on Elfhelm and take a look at this:

https://imgur.com/gallery/HNANaOn

The symbols on the side of the woman's neck look a little similar to the symbol on Danan's dress. Could be a stretch, but nonetheless I still found it interesting.

 

[Victor]

The symbols on the side of the woman's neck look a little similar to the symbol on Danan's dress. Could be a stretch, but nonetheless I still found it interesting.

Those are pins used for holding the clothing in place. They did look familiar when I first saw them but I didn't bother checking. They probably come from the same place as the other accessories and jewelry she was wearing, which were already indicative of Danan by themselves; ultimately I don't think it changes much, but it's a cool find.

 

[Walter]

I was rereading the part when the gang arrive on Elfhelm and take a look at this:

https://imgur.com/gallery/HNANaOn

The symbols on the side of the woman's neck look a little similar to the symbol on Danan's dress. Could be a stretch, but nonetheless I still found it interesting.

Sure, there's little question that there's a connection between what the branded woman is wearing and the Celtic knot-like symbols we've seen all over the island. We even saw a version of them back when Guts and Casca pass through Flora's barrier in Volume 24. They're symbols associated with magic users from Elfhelm.

 

[kaolin]

I still think Void was the first God Hand and the other four were Class S Apostles similar to the likes of Zodd.

 

[Griffith]

I still think Void was the first God Hand and the other four were Class S Apostles similar to the likes of Zodd.

Void may very well have been the first God Hand, that's not mutually exclusive to the existence of those other God Hand, but to deny they are what they're shown as is to simply misconstrue the straightforward and obvious storytelling meaning conveyed by that image as presented in the text of the story. That's not valid interpretation or even speculation, it's misinformation.

 

[Aazealh]

I do wonder just how much Skully's journey parallels Guts' before he became Skull Knight, like was he involved in multiple skirmishes against the God Hand already, did he have the Berserk's armor already or get it specifically to fight them, etc? Maybe it all happened in one cataclysmic event like the one we're seeing, or perhaps there were others before and after. And, as Skully or not, what if these God Hand weren't all killed at once? Was there ever an awkward in-between group? "Hey guys, I know we're all still sad we lost Clortho, but say hi to the new guy, Ubik!" )

Haha, those are all good questions indeed. I think both ideas are compelling: the possibility Gaiseric didn't see it coming basically, that an enemy faction succeeded in attaining enormous power and he was blindsided, or the idea that they were already enemies and he just couldn't win against them despite his power and status. As for an in-between state for the "God Band", I'm not a fan of the idea. I'd like to think all four of them disappeared around the same time, just because like you said it'd be awkward otherwise. But all we know for sure is that they were four before Femto.

I was rereading the part when the gang arrive on Elfhelm and take a look at this:

https://imgur.com/gallery/HNANaOn

The symbols on the side of the woman's neck look a little similar to the symbol on Danan's dress. Could be a stretch, but nonetheless I still found it interesting.

Yeah I noticed that right away when I saw her, as I'm sure others did, but the thing is that spirals are a relatively common symbol. It's not exclusive to Danan (Isma's mom had put a spiral seashell on their house for protection for example), and anyone familiar with Celtic culture or various ancient traditions could tell you that it's not uncommon. So it's not nothing, but it could just be an indication of an era or culture more than a direct connection. It's certainly not as significant as the giant elf amulet she's wearing, for example. Notice she's also wearing a robe that evokes ancient Greece, which corresponds to the images we've had of Gaiseric's city and time.

 

[ScarletBerserker]

Ah man so late to the party but what a read! So much good discussion already I've been sitting here for about 45 minutes dissecting and re-reading the episode.
One thing I would really be fascinated with is how Gaiseric managed to obtain the armour in the first place! Given the potential likeness to Danan in her facial features and now that we've met original armoursmith who created the armour I am intrigued to see how the old world was.
My mind was flashing back to the episode where Schierke defended the Church by communing with the spirits and she mentioned that there used to be some sort of shrine that the Church was built on. I'm wondering how interlinked the old world (pre-Void ascension) was with the astral world because I wonder if an armour like the Berserker armour can exist in a purely corporeal world. Ah another mystery stretching even further back in time.

 

[Aazealh]

My mind was flashing back to the episode where Schierke defended the Church by communing with the spirits and she mentioned that there used to be some sort of shrine that the Church was built on. I'm wondering how interlinked the old world (pre-Void ascension) was with the astral world because I wonder if an armour like the Berserker armour can exist in a purely corporeal world. Ah another mystery stretching even further back in time.

Well we know the worlds were merged in ancient times. I've speculated in the past that back then, because magic users were much more common, humans might have able to live more normally alongside astral critters like trolls or ogres. They could deal with them like you'd deal with just any wild animal by using magic, knowing what could repel them, or asking for the help of powerful spirits. The big question is why the good guys decided to split the worlds apart, and why the bad guys wanted them merged again...

 

[samaticon]

Wow amazing episode. Gaiseric was even more bad ass than I could have imagined.

As others mentioned earlier in this topic regarding Zodd's age, I was thinking why they call him "Immortal" might be more than just about his abilities in battle. Cant wait to find out more.