Author Topic: Twin Peaks Returns  (Read 8113 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Eluvei

Re: Twin Peaks Returns
« Reply #150 on: August 31, 2017, 08:53:11 PM »
He's also Coop's sidekick and foil, it's really the team chemistry and Coop's comradery I'll miss

Yeah, you're right about that.

Some of Eluvei's other favorite scenes: Jacoby painting shovels, sweeping man, Candie being slow, Sarah Palmer watching TV, Steven inaubly mumbling. Why don't you just admit you secretly hate Cooper too and your real reason for watching the show is Heidi and her laugh! I'm onto you.

I only noticed you were making fun of me because you mentioned Heidi. I really love all of those.  :ganishka:

I'm a little disappointed there were more Sarah Palmer scenes after her first one, to be completely honest. I would have found it more powerful if the only time we saw her, was when she's watching that documentary, just so we get a glimpse at how these types of tragedies destroy someone. I did like some of her other scenes a lot, especially the one with Hawk. I try not to think too hard about shit that will obviously be explored in later episodes like what she did at the bar (I don't read Reddit or anything like that, so I dunno what the fan consensus is on that, if there is one) but so far that kinda bummed me out too, I didn't want that character, which I always found incredibly tragic, to have some more plot tied into her.


Quote
Good call, I've followed suit and tagged my replies as well, just in case.

 :azan:

I disagree on an episode by episode basis, but I can understand this for the season as a whole (though your objections might be different, YMMV, etc). It's been too much of a normally good thing, like every episode is some deep, dark exploration and deconstruction of the characters, until literally becoming so in the most recent episode, but you can't do that every time out. A little of that goes a long way, like a few big emotional moments or payoffs per season, but it's kind of taking over the show to the point the adventures themselves are suffering and its ironically becoming flat and repetitive with depth. In any case, with the time they took to write it and these results I think they're trying too hard and won't be able to sustain it. The show is still relatively fresh and in it's prime and I feel like they could dial back the quality/quantity ratio a bit and put out more great episodes before they burn out trying to make every one more significant than the last (this is what happened to Gn'R on the Use Your Illusions albums =). I never thought I'd say this but we need an Interdimensional Cable episode (that somehow doesn't devolve into self-loathing).

I think you nailed it. And for some reason, I'm finding the jokes too telegraphed this season. Not sure if it was always like this and I just fell out of love with it, or what.

Offline Griffith

  • The Millennium Falcon
  • Falconian
  • Of the Abyss
  • *****
  • Posts: 9673
  • Karma: 221
  • Gender: Male
  • My posts are better.
Re: Twin Peaks Returns
« Reply #151 on: September 03, 2017, 05:25:58 AM »
I only noticed you were making fun of me because you mentioned Heidi. I really love all of those.  :ganishka:

 :ganishka:

That's why I had to include a tell, I couldn't be sure I wasn't just stating the facts. =)

Quote

I'm a little disappointed there were more Sarah Palmer scenes after her first one, to be completely honest. I would have found it more powerful if the only time we saw her, was when she's watching that documentary, just so we get a glimpse at how these types of tragedies destroy someone. I did like some of her other scenes a lot, especially the one with Hawk. I try not to think too hard about shit that will obviously be explored in later episodes like what she did at the bar (I don't read Reddit or anything like that, so I dunno what the fan consensus is on that, if there is one) but so far that kinda bummed me out too, I didn't want that character, which I always found incredibly tragic, to have some more plot tied into her.

I can understand that, and hopefully they make it worthwhile and she isn't just cast aside or turned into some monster. Since she seems to be one though maybe she was also the "mother" trying to break through the door way back in Part 3. Would that mean Naido,
the eyeless woman, could be Laura Palmer instead of Diane (or something else entirely)? There's your dose of useless speculation.


Quote
I think you nailed it. And for some reason, I'm finding the jokes too telegraphed this season. Not sure if it was always like this and I just fell out of love with it, or what.

I think it's another symptom of them being way up in their own heads, like how many times has Rick commented on something being hacky this season? WE GET IT!


Update: Check out this ridiculousness...

Twin Peaks Action Figures

They look pretty good though! And good choices too, though I would have preferred a live Laura Palmer of some sort, maybe the dream/Black Lodge version if they're all supposed to be contemporary, and maybe Audrey or Leland should have got the nod over Log Lady (but that's very plot heavy and she is the perfect representative for the rest of Twin Peaks). Btw, if you look at the related items they also have those stupid Funko POP figures of all the aforementioned characters. There's something not right about such a cute BOB figure.



Update 2: Finally watched The Missing Pieces today, so I'm now "100%" going into the finale. It wasn't a bad or incoherent watch for being a compilation of deleted scenes (the best this side of Wake Up, Ron Burgundy at least =), but then you have to be familiar with everything else for it to work so I can understand what a treat it was for fans to get all those tidbits on the characters, especially the added material on Jeffries and Cooper if you're a plot/lore focused fellow like myself (I can see why the cut the Cooper ending to the margins of Laura's diary to keep the focus on that time, but it was damn fine to get a bit more, and really is essential for understanding things like the ring's chain of custody). Anyway, glad I was able to see it before the finale (but do I have to read the books too? =) I also reviewed Cooper's revival and Audrey's dance. Man, I could have used more 100% Cooper; or at least 90%, like have him be himself but without the memories of who he was and watch him be the best damn Dougie Jones possible for a few episodes; that would have been an interesting alternative with plenty of potential, made his final reawakening a little less jarring for those around him, and his necessary departure even more heartbreaking for them all, including Coop. Anyway, I can't wait to see what the big bad owl god under the moon in the black fire is all about, so I hope we find out! Whether it's Bob's creator, Sarah Palmer, the creature in experiment, or all or none of the above. ^♦^


And if you're not psyched enough going in, check out these awesome comic pop art posters commemorating every week. Parts 1, 8, and 16 are naturally standouts, I'm also partial to 5, 6, 12, 14 (Inoue-esque), and 15, but they're all pretty cool:

http://welcometotwinpeaks.com/inspiration/twin-peaks-posters-18-parts-crisvector/
« Last Edit: September 03, 2017, 06:33:12 AM by Griffith »

Offline Eluvei

Re: Twin Peaks Returns
« Reply #152 on: September 03, 2017, 05:45:33 PM »
Update 2: Finally watched The Missing Pieces today, so I'm now "100%" going into the finale. It wasn't a bad or incoherent watch for being a compilation of deleted scenes (the best this side of Wake Up, Ron Burgundy at least =), but then you have to be familiar with everything else for it to work so I can understand what a treat it was for fans to get all those tidbits on the characters, especially the added material on Jeffries and Cooper if you're a plot/lore focused fellow like myself (I can see why the cut the Cooper ending to the margins of Laura's diary to keep the focus on that time, but it was damn fine to get a bit more, and really is essential for understanding things like the ring's chain of custody). Anyway, glad I was able to see it before the finale (but do I have to read the books too? =)

I love how Evil Coop still talks in that unnatural, robotic manner, especially when talking to regular honest folk. When he explains how he hit his head on the mirror, it's exactly like how he explains to Gordon how he hit his car and was arrested.

The other bit of continuity that came straight out of Missing Pieces that I remember is how Lucy's trouble understanding cell phones in The Return appears to be related to her not understanding how people can just walk out of a room without hanging up the phone or whatever it was that scared her in that scene.


I watched most of the shorts listed here to prepare for tonight, it's a really good selection: http://metrograph.com/series/series/107/gotta-light

A guy sent me something interesting he found on Reddit. Some dude in a Twin Peaks convention sort of found out why this is the best show:

Quote
David and Mark obviously co-wrote the series... to a point. Around the time they handed things over to Showtime, things changed a bit. Mark went off to write The Secret History of Twin Peaks and David directed the whole thing, but the interesting thing to note here is that, as you all may recall, the series Showtime announced was going to be 8 or 9 episodes. There was that whole drama where David announced he quit, Showtime caved, and now we have 18 episodes. This was NOT a case of the existing material simply being stretched out. According to Sabrina, David actually continued to write. So this seems to have shifted the level of writing involvement more heavily to Lynch than Frost. EDIT: For clarity, it's not that David wrote nine more episodes. It's more like he wrote more scenes interspersed throughout the existing material.

Offline Griffith

  • The Millennium Falcon
  • Falconian
  • Of the Abyss
  • *****
  • Posts: 9673
  • Karma: 221
  • Gender: Male
  • My posts are better.
Re: Twin Peaks Returns
« Reply #153 on: September 03, 2017, 08:35:29 PM »
I love how Evil Coop still talks in that unnatural, robotic manner, especially when talking to regular honest folk. When he explains how he hit his head on the mirror, it's exactly like how he explains to Gordon how he hit his car and was arrested.

That was the biggest takeaway from the movie for me too, because there wasn't much connective tissue between season 3's stone cold Evil Coop and the manically evil Cooper doppelganger we see in the lodge or smashing his face in the mirror (not that he couldn't evolve), but that scene was it. I was blown away when he started talking in Evil Coop's now signature monotone. I wonder if MacLachlan and Lynch always remembered that or were reminded by the Missing Pieces project.

Quote
A guy sent me something interesting he found on Reddit. Some dude in a Twin Peaks convention sort of found out why this is the best show:

Well, as much as that sounds like an effort by Lynch fans to give him 100% of the credit when he already deservedly gets most of it, it does track with the way the season played out, particularly the indulgences of the second half ("I, er, Gordon needs a 15 minute escourt scene!"). I'm calling BS that he spread it around evenly though when he literally doubled the size of the material; more like what we saw is what happened and he ditched the first half's more structured plotting for a while in the second half to go joy riding, occasionally checking in until it was time to come home. =) I also want to give Frost credit for grounding things just enough to otherwise keep it from completely going off the rails, but I don't really know their working dymamic. Anyway, knowing this makes me appreciate the extras in the series all the more, while also confirming the feeling it didn't need to be so long, but why not?
« Last Edit: September 03, 2017, 09:12:20 PM by Griffith »

Offline Grail

  • Spanish Inquisitor
  • Falconian
  • Of the Vortex
  • *****
  • Posts: 1041
  • Karma: 155
  • Gender: Female
  • RIP Photobucket
Re: Twin Peaks Returns
« Reply #154 on: September 04, 2017, 01:16:46 AM »
So... The Return is over.

I think I'm still in shock, but my main thought at the moment is that I like how Lynch and Frost took the one indisputable"fact" of the show, Laura's death, and turned it on its head. I'm still trying to unpack everything that's happened, including the mind-boggling last half hour of episode 18, because there's no doubt that there are a few easily-missed details that may help explain what we just witnessed. Richard Horne turned out to be a red herring, and Audrey and Coop never had their reunion! I'm really sad about that. I also wish that Coop would have gotten some more time with the rest of the old cast.

What do folks think about a potential fourth season at this point? I feel like it could go either way. There was no doubt from the beginning that Lynch and Frost had no intention of answering every lingering question from the original run, but I feel like a lot of new characters and ideas were introduced without much of an idea of what they were intended to communicate. What was the deal with the drug addicted lady saying "119?" What about Bob's "Mother"? Who was the friend of the Fireman who held Laura's orb and gave it a good luck kiss? And what in the hell ever happened to Billy?! :ganishka:

Ultimately, I enjoyed the ride, but I'm still raring for more. Time to pre-order my copy of the Final Dossier. :casca:


EDIT: Forgot to add that this episode gave me some classic Lynch/Lost Highway vibes. The theme of somebody not being who they think they are, or their identity changing, is a theme you see in a lot of Lynch's work. The inconclusive nature of the last moments of the episode definitely carried that feeling, as well.


Offline Walter

  • 賢者
  • Administrator
  • Of the Abyss
  • *****
  • Posts: 15864
  • Karma: 464
  • Gender: Male
  • Chapter ≠ Episode
Re: Twin Peaks Returns
« Reply #155 on: September 04, 2017, 02:25:39 AM »
Shock is a good word for it.

I don't even know where to begin. When you start messing not only with time, but also pocket dimensions, AND David Lynch is at the helm, I'm not exactly sure how anyone is expected to follow along. I'll just lay out where my head is at the moment.

Fairly sure in Ep 18, they were in a pocket-dimension, where the real Laura was being kept. Hidden perhaps after she was snatched from Cooper's hand? And Coop probably wasn't supposed to take Laura back to her home. Chalfont/Tremond is of course, the name of the old woman and her grandson, who also owned the property where Chester Desmond disappeared from. The powerline was also a Black Lodge giveaway. Perhaps the house was a kind of trap, set there in case something like this happened. Then the trap sprung upon Laura's appearance (and the apparent appearance of Sarah/Mother). Just before Laura screams, you can hear Sarah's moaning (from the scene at the end of ep 17).

Or they were in a timeline where Laura was never killed. Makes less sense, but who the fuck knows?

In ep 17, Cooper looses hold of Laura's hand when they're near that big ass tree. The same one that asshole-face "died" next to? What the fuck does that signify?

Oh yeah and Cooper didn't remember "Richard and Linda," and I'm not sure why we were supposed to.

I love/hate how Lynch bothers to bring back Twin Peaks ostensibly to tie up loose ends after the abrupt ending, only to leave us with another one with even MORE loose ends. :ganishka:  :judo:

That ending though, holy shit. Gonna stay with me.


PS: Funny thing I learned by Googling "Odessa Twin Peaks," there's a Hooters-esque sports bar in Odessa, TX named Twin Peaks.
« Last Edit: September 04, 2017, 02:50:35 AM by Walter »
:femto: :slan: :ubik:

Offline Eluvei

Re: Twin Peaks Returns
« Reply #156 on: September 04, 2017, 03:01:44 AM »
I think I'm still in shock

Yeah, holy shit. What a ride. I feel very weird right now.

Just before Laura screams, you can hear Sarah's moaning (from the scene at the end of ep 17).

Fairly sure it's Sarah calling Laura in the pilot episode when she notices she's not coming down to go to school. It's also heard when Coop has his dream of the Red Room two episodes after that. Wow, that sounded pedantic as hell, I'm sorry.

Offline Skeleton

  • Falconian
  • Of the Nexus
  • *****
  • Posts: 728
  • Karma: 71
  • Gender: Male
Re: Twin Peaks Returns
« Reply #157 on: September 04, 2017, 04:17:04 AM »
PS: Funny thing I learned by Googling "Odessa Twin Peaks," there's a Hooters-esque sports bar in Odessa, TX named Twin Peaks.

They're all over the place down here. And they're Pacific Northwest/Rocky Mountains/lumberjack themed too so it's like being in the show itself! (And depending on which one you go to there might even be a biker bar fight scene!)

Offline Griffith

  • The Millennium Falcon
  • Falconian
  • Of the Abyss
  • *****
  • Posts: 9673
  • Karma: 221
  • Gender: Male
  • My posts are better.
Re: Twin Peaks Returns
« Reply #158 on: September 04, 2017, 06:49:18 AM »
My own running thoughts before I read any of yours:

I wasn't too surprised by much in the first hour, I expected Evil Cooper and the "plotty" stuff to be dispatched and dispensed with quickly (good thing hulk fist was there to kill Bob, RIP, I can't help but view this as a parody of a traditional resolution =), I didn't really expect any more clear lore answers or understanding than we already had (I was actually a bit a afraid anything so explicit would be a disappointment), and I hoped for things to come back around to Laura and Sarah Palmer (which it did, almost, with some heavy duty Judy implications). Cooper saving Laura and BTTFing the show's premise out existence was certainly "mind blowing," though I think just having the real Coop meeting the real Laura back in her time was more genuinely breathtaking. As a storytelling device it's not extraordinary though, not normal or anything, but it's not unlike things we've seen in recent years on GoT and plenty more elsewhere in this "genre." The second half is where things get interesting, and weird, and boring, and confusing, and funny, and sad and eureka, and done. I don't know if this is accurate, but in the moment I found myself appreciating the idea that Dale completely screwed up and failed and we weren't going to see the big final confrontation/reunion of momentous importance, or, to be more kind, things just didn't work out! Or did they? I think it's a natural reaction to feel left wanting. To think, "THAT'S IT!?" That's kind of the feeling you're initially left with, right? I was reminded of The Sopranos finale, like maybe my cable box or, in this case, the Internet went down. It's at least the last time I remember staring at a black screen having it dawn on me that it was over but hoping for the next image, except this time it was just an image of Dale Cooper behind the credits rolling getting some bad news, his face mirroring my own. But, it was basically confirmed that it is Laura, that she remembers herself and recognizes the house, and that the house and everything associated with it responds accordingly. Is that enough, does it matter we don't get the big payoff setup with Laura, her mother and/or Judy, do we need the magic fist of destiny to punch the ball o' bad 'til its head esplodes, or is it better this way? Or is it a copout because while we're all weirded out, cutoff and denied just at the moment of truth, and left asking what it all means, it's because no meaning was actually provided, but a trick for us to endlessly perceive it? Anticipation as payoff.


I think I'm still in shock, but my main thought at the moment is that I like how Lynch and Frost took the one indisputable"fact" of the show, Laura's death, and turned it on its head.

Yes and no, we've seen that trick before (like in Ash vs. Evil Dead), so I really wanted to see what they did to justify "going home again" this way.

there's no doubt that there are a few easily-missed details that may help explain what we just witnessed.

I especially like Laura Palmer's decor.

What do folks think about a potential fourth season at this point? I feel like it could go either way. There was no doubt from the beginning that Lynch and Frost had no intention of answering every lingering question from the original run, but I feel like a lot of new characters and ideas were introduced without much of an idea of what they were intended to communicate. What was the deal with the drug addicted lady saying "119?" What about Bob's "Mother"? Who was the friend of the Fireman who held Laura's orb and gave it a good luck kiss? And what in the hell ever happened to Billy?! :ganishka:

Ultimately, I enjoyed the ride, but I'm still raring for more. Time to pre-order my copy of the Final Dossier. :casca:

You're certainly more game than I at the moment, just the fact that everything you mentioned was left as is, along with half the unanswered questions from the original run, only tells me that subsequent series won't be answering those questions either but only generating more they won't answer. I'm not saying that's a bad thing or that it should be the point, just that it doesn't seem to be the point. I think I prefer this ending at the moment, as interesting as it would be to watch them pick it up from here and work through it only to end up somewhere similar.

Shock is a good word for it.

I don't even know where to begin. When you start messing not only with time, but also pocket dimensions, AND David Lynch is at the helm, I'm not exactly sure how anyone is expected to follow along. I'll just lay out where my head is at the moment.

Interesting explanations of things, I try to just go with the flow and not think of it too technically, just "Coop saves Laura so Laura is alive for Coop to find." The dimensions or timelines are whatever they are, and pretty much impossible to know for sure as you say. It occurred to me that Laura could have been returned from that time in her own version of being "Dougie Jones."

And Coop probably wasn't supposed to take Laura back to her home. Chalfont/Tremond is of course, the name of the old woman and her grandson, who also owned the property where Chester Desmond disappeared from.

Son. Of. A. Bitch. I knew those names were familiar but didn't catch it, still...

The powerline was also a Black Lodge giveaway. Perhaps the house was a kind of trap, set there in case something like this happened. Then the trap sprung upon Laura's appearance (and the apparent appearance of Sarah/Mother). Just before Laura screams, you can hear Sarah's moaning (from the scene at the end of ep 17).

This was the sense I was getting during the scene, or the sense my mind was trying to make of it; this is BS, some sort of security measure to keep them out, etc and more or less confirmed by Laura's awakening and scream.

I love/hate how Lynch bothers to bring back Twin Peaks ostensibly to tie up loose ends after the abrupt ending, only to leave us with another one with even MORE loose ends. :ganishka:  :judo:

Yep, but are you itching for another season making even less sense with even more loose ends to explain these!? In a few more seasons it will just be an incomprehensible set of moving shapes and sounds.

That ending though, holy shit. Gonna stay with me.
Yeah, holy shit. What a ride. I feel very weird right now.

Agreed and clearly that was the intention. Perpetual anticipation, perpetual payoff, no disappointment...? I need to re-watch it more closely (I'm still replaying it in my head though), but a snarky, reductive part of me can't help but think, "It was the Sopranos ending, right down to the blackout." =)

Fairly sure it's Sarah calling Laura in the pilot episode when she notices she's not coming down to go to school. It's also heard when Coop has his dream of the Red Room two episodes after that. Wow, that sounded pedantic as hell, I'm sorry.

Don't be, that's a good catch (you can totally hear "Laura"), and what did you think besides feeling weird (is that dissonance over whether it was good or not, how good, or is that representative of the goodness itself =)? You had to be worried in the beginning when it was going full FBI chalk, but then it only got progressively less traditional as it went along with plenty of the sort of weird moments you enjoy along the way. BTW, I can't believe I'm the first person to mention Diane, or who or whatever she ended up being. You want pedantic? I swear her hair changed color to a more pink, as opposed to orangey, red after we saw the other Diane outside the hotel lobby and this signaled that she'd been changed/replaced by a tulpa. No idea if there's anything to this but it made me feel bad for her & Coop.

Oh, and we could have known this line would sum everything up, "WHAT THE HELL JUST HAPPENED!?" Upon review I also couldn't help but take Cooper's final line, "What year is this?" as a commentary on trying to "come home again" like they were literally but also with this endeavor as a whole.
« Last Edit: September 04, 2017, 08:00:11 AM by Griffith »

Offline Walter

  • 賢者
  • Administrator
  • Of the Abyss
  • *****
  • Posts: 15864
  • Karma: 464
  • Gender: Male
  • Chapter ≠ Episode
Re: Twin Peaks Returns
« Reply #159 on: September 04, 2017, 11:47:10 AM »
:femto: :slan: :ubik:

Offline Griffith

  • The Millennium Falcon
  • Falconian
  • Of the Abyss
  • *****
  • Posts: 9673
  • Karma: 221
  • Gender: Male
  • My posts are better.
Re: Twin Peaks Returns
« Reply #160 on: September 04, 2017, 03:21:12 PM »
https://twitter.com/Seinfeld2000/status/904568942877843456

 :ganishka:

I'm rewatching 17 and 18 this morning and getting all those details again i forgot to write about like Brigg's disembodied head, Evil Coop cage, Andy's picnic basket, superimposed Coop head saying we live in a dream, and we haven't even gone to February 23rd, 1989, where Cooper was tofind Judy.

Offline VengeanceQuest982

Re: Twin Peaks Returns
« Reply #161 on: September 04, 2017, 03:34:58 PM »
I think that we were given the darkest telling of the tale of Orpheus and Eurydice ever in the series finale to Twin Peaks The Return . When this is released on BD I'm gonna do a complete rewatch of the series from 1 - 3 as everything we saw in those seasons will be from a new perspective now knowing what was revealed in the 3rd season.
« Last Edit: September 04, 2017, 03:49:10 PM by VengeanceQuest982 »

Offline Walter

  • 賢者
  • Administrator
  • Of the Abyss
  • *****
  • Posts: 15864
  • Karma: 464
  • Gender: Male
  • Chapter ≠ Episode
Re: Twin Peaks Returns
« Reply #162 on: September 04, 2017, 03:36:46 PM »
:ganishka:

I'm rewatching 17 and 18 this morning and getting all those details again i forgot to write about like Brigg's disembodied head, Evil Coop cage, Andy's picnic basket, superimposed Coop head saying we live in a dream, and we haven't even gone to February 23rd, 1989, where Cooper was tofind Judy.

Indeed, Evil Coop infiltrating the White Lodge only to end up in a "projection" of Twin Peaks, which happened to be the Twin Peaks that we know, led to an "oh shit" moment for me. And of course, Coop's "we live inside a dream" solidified it. ... What was inside the picnic basket?

These episodes have been swimming in my head since last night. Two more things. Evil Coop was searching for Judy, just like Coop was. They both got help from Jefferies. His direction for Coop seemed to be on the money, even though he got there in a roundabout way. Which makes me wonder if Evil Coop did/will end up meeting with Judy as well. Finally, the nature for Cooper's help was quite different. It wasn't coordinates, but a figure-8.

EDIT: Ah, now I get it. Evil Coop was headed for Sarah's home, but the Fireman intercepted it, sending him to Twin Peaks Sheriff's Office (and the trap he had laid there).
« Last Edit: September 05, 2017, 01:12:27 AM by Walter »
:femto: :slan: :ubik:

Offline Eluvei

Re: Twin Peaks Returns
« Reply #163 on: September 04, 2017, 04:18:01 PM »
Don't be, that's a good catch (you can totally hear "Laura"), and what did you think besides feeling weird (is that dissonance over whether it was good or not, how good, or is that representative of the goodness itself =)? You had to be worried in the beginning when it was going full FBI chalk, but then it only got progressively less traditional as it went along with plenty of the sort of weird moments you enjoy along the way. BTW, I can't believe I'm the first person to mention Diane, or who or whatever she ended up being.

Honestly having a hard time organizing my thoughts. I loved it, thought it was the best thing since FWWM probably. Guess the short of it is, I think this is the most metatextual Lynch has ever been. As soon as real Diane shows up with hair and nails painted in the colors of the Red Room, it got as blatant as Norma's talk with the Showtime executive. And soon after that, Coop's superimposed head, which shows up as everyone's gathered celebrating the cartoonish resolution (Evil Ball is punched by a superhero down into a firey hell pit; some individual characters' happy endings felt genuine, this one did not), tells us we live inside a dream, while looking at us. Then the protagonist, the Red Room embodiment, and the director of this television show lead us to the past to try and force the show into having an even happier ending. Get the fuck outta here. There's no way Gordon would be in that scene with them if it wasn't for some kind of wink & nudge to the audience.

By trying to bring Laura back, he ends up in a reality where the person who lives there is the actual resident of that house in real life, and all it apparently accomplishes is making Laura remember what happened to her. Jesus Christ.

Some random thoughts: I don't think it's a coincidence Cooper is called Richard in this reality, and the only other Richard is the most caricaturally evil human in the show. And we figure out he's Richard after that disturbing sex scene where Diane tries to cover his face (the "sex" song being abruptly cut off to reveal a Silent Hill ambient music, Christ). Two episodes ago we found out she (or her tulpa) was raped by Coop (or his doppleganger). This was some ending of Mulholland Drive type of thing for sure. Maybe in 20 years I'll have a solid theory.

Sarah trying to destroy Laura's portrait as he's bringing her back into life was scary as hell. Did she know it was impossible, and attempting to do that would only bring more pain, make the dark hole in her face grow even more?

Loved hearing the Fire Walk With Me poem again, MIKE rules.

Jerry's journey of all things having a resolution out of nowhere was hilarious.

Edit: I keep thinking of that scene from Part 2 in the Red Room, when Laura's whisked away by some force as she screams in terror after we're shown she's filled with light. That's how that last episode felt to me. Right now I think these two final episodes were in some ways a lot like a short film/documentary that had a great impact on Lynch, Georges Franju's Blood of the Beasts: it shows some peaceful footage of a boy and a girl walking around innocently, and then it abruptly cuts to a huge white horse, and it shows it entering a slaughterhouse where it's brutally killed and gutted and dismembered.
:daiba:
« Last Edit: September 04, 2017, 04:41:14 PM by Eluvei »

Offline Griffith

  • The Millennium Falcon
  • Falconian
  • Of the Abyss
  • *****
  • Posts: 9673
  • Karma: 221
  • Gender: Male
  • My posts are better.
Re: Twin Peaks Returns
« Reply #164 on: September 05, 2017, 05:49:48 AM »
I finished watching them again this morning and repeated the last 15 minutes or so a couple times more and am struck by how neatly separated the two final episodes are in a way. Episode 17 is practically an ideal ending in every way as Eluvei points out, that is until Laura vanishes into screaming air, which follows the current, if there is such a thing, Sarah Palmer destroying her picture (perhaps implying causation). It totally could have ended there to similar effect but 18 basically resets with Coop from there in the lodge where a lot of important information is reviewed before he finally departs the way he originally came (this might as well directly follow the season 2 finale =), where Diane is waiting for him (the curtain call). Then it becomes that strange odyssey to "find Laura," like a new beginning or a self-contained Laura-centric follow up ala FWWM. It's also both the most surreal and realistic part of the series tone-wise, surreal to the norm of Twin Peaks anyway, because here Coop is acting more like a normal man, or even Mr. C, than his usual paragon throughout (also, not that it matters, but he only picks up 2 of the 3 cowboys guns yet disposes of all 3 =). Another detail I'm fascinated by is the car Cooper and Diane are in, they clearly start out in a vintage model but the next day Coop leaves in a far more contemporary looking vehicle ("What year is this?"). I'm not really driving at anything new here, just collecting observations and thoughts. Then of course he finds "Laura" or whatever equivalent Carrie Page is and tries to tie it altogether with Sarah at the Palmer house and YMMV at his success (for what it's worth the actor playing the Chalfont/Tremond woman is the real life homeowner). It seems to me that 17 is the big heroic finish to make everything perfect, and 18 is the fucked up aftermath of something so dangerously ambitious, basically screwing things up worse than Bob or Mr. C could ever imagine. At least that's one way to see it, after all we don't know what happens after unless that really is the Sopranos ending except Cooper and Laura just assassinated the universe (there was nothing more to see =). Otherwise, despite the extended travel log aspects and narrative blue balls following the final scene it was all pretty fucking eventful; Cooper successfully brought Laura back to life and to her house through space, time, and multiple dimensions and yet to a more haunting end, so rather than leaving us wanting it might be considered pretty fucking above and beyond considering it could have just ended pat in Episode 17 before slinking away to Julie Cruise's reprise of, "The World Spins. This also, in real time watching last night no less, reminded me a bit of the ending(s) to The Dark Tower *spoiler alert*, of which there's at least 3, one that's just the facts, Roland overcomes the over-the-top final obstacle and enters the tower, a ridiculous mega happy ending for all his friends, and a disclaimer begging you not to read further that precedes the real, not-so-satisfying, ending. =)
« Last Edit: September 05, 2017, 06:28:49 AM by Griffith »

Offline Eluvei

Re: Twin Peaks Returns
« Reply #165 on: September 06, 2017, 02:16:32 AM »
It's also both the most surreal and realistic part of the series tone-wise, surreal to the norm of Twin Peaks anyway, because here Coop is acting more like a normal man, or even Mr. C, than his usual paragon throughout

Yeah there's absolutely a more verite look to those scenes. I mean, we watched Agent Cooper filling his gas at Valero. But also, it had a kind of odd violent wild west vibe with the shootout and the rotting body, so yeah, realistic and surreal sounds right. Extremely weird.

Another detail I'm fascinated by is the car Cooper and Diane are in, they clearly start out in a vintage model but the next day Coop leaves in a far more contemporary looking vehicle ("What year is this?"). I'm not really driving at anything new here, just collecting observations and thoughts.

The motel was also a different one when he wakes up. It definitely looked like Coop and Diane were following some kind of script to change the reality even then. "Turn the lights off. You come here to me." Like it was some kind of ritual they had to perform correctly. The sex scene being no exception.

Cooper successfully brought Laura back to life and to her house through space, time, and multiple dimensions and yet to a more haunting end, so rather than leaving us wanting it might be considered pretty fucking above and beyond considering it could have just ended pat in Episode 17 before slinking away to Julie Cruise's reprise of, "The World Spins.

Yeah, if after Inland Empire his next project ended with the super glove defeating the evil ball in earnest and Candie being glad she brought so many sandwiches for the wrap party, I dunno what I would have thought. That was kind of a foreboding music choice though, wasn't it? Last time we heard it, was in the "it is happening again" scene.

Offline NightCrawler

  • Of the Vortex
  • ****
  • Posts: 1728
  • Karma: 6
  • Gender: Male
  • Aeons gone, vast, mad and deathless
Re: Twin Peaks Returns
« Reply #166 on: September 06, 2017, 02:34:21 AM »
I don't have any big take and i'm trying hard not to geek out over all the theories, i just wanted to say i found the whole experience rather cold and sterile. The lack of music made a big difference, Lynch's sound design is serviceable, but it's only half of the dream-like state his films induce. It seems Badalamenti was only credited but didn't add anything new. A shame, for the lack of a proper score gave me a sense of detachment and a lack of vibrancy i get when i watch his stuff. The bad digital effects expanded on the absence of emotion for me. I felt completely uncaring for most of the events until part 18 hit me several hours later.
If FWWM had some form of redemption at the end, this season had none. No heart or soul (Dougie was the closest to it), and the bleakest ending possible. A lost Coop, losing his humanity while realizing that Laura can't be saved, no matter how much the world has changed, suffering is perpetual.

No one screams like Sheryl Lee.
Berserk isn't really "dark fantasy" either. It's plain fantasy
Miura has been very protective of Berserk

Offline Griffith

  • The Millennium Falcon
  • Falconian
  • Of the Abyss
  • *****
  • Posts: 9673
  • Karma: 221
  • Gender: Male
  • My posts are better.
Re: Twin Peaks Returns
« Reply #167 on: September 06, 2017, 05:01:20 PM »
Yeah there's absolutely a more verite look to those scenes. I mean, we watched Agent Cooper filling his gas at Valero. But also, it had a kind of odd violent wild west vibe with the shootout and the rotting body, so yeah, realistic and surreal sounds right. Extremely weird.

It was almost like a cartoon character being transported into the real world. Coop was still relatively good, heroic and competent, but it wasn't squeaky clean and he didn't have the same perfect composure (I mean, he pointed that gun at the waitress too =). I wouldn't go as far as Nighty and say he lost his humanity, actually I think you could argue he became more human for his relative flaws, not less, but he definitely lost his innocence in a way we didn't even see in the black lodge. MacLachlan described his direction for Richard as a bit "harder" than the normal Coop and I really appreciate his performance in this episode, the tone of his "what" in response to the cowboy is right out of the Mr. C playbook and I think about the closest you'll hear to the real Coop egging someone on. So, in its own strange way this felt like a new start and the most real and in depth we've ever gone with Coop (and I wondered how he was going to fit into the new show once reestablished), like we were meeting a real Agent Cooper for the first time after we got the platonic ideal again in episode 16. Of course, you should never meet your heroes.

The motel was also a different one when he wakes up.

Well, of course I missed THAT. :schierke:

It definitely looked like Coop and Diane were following some kind of script to change the reality even then. "Turn the lights off. You come here to me." Like it was some kind of ritual they had to perform correctly. The sex scene being no exception.

They're performing the ritual of a prestige television show! They needed to have a gratuitous sex scene in order to advance time to a future point, then Coop needed to have a hard-boiled confrontation that really puts him over with us and only then can he find Laura and go back to Twin Peaks. Except that doesn't work either, Laura's not Laura, Twin Peaks just looks like any empty streets at night, and Laura's house has real people living in it. Maybe Lynch was hoping that at some point this ritual would conjure  Judy or the experiment in our televisions so it could break out and slaughter us. Now that would have been an ending (I think even if Lynch had pulled a cheesy jump scare like that I'd have still had a coronary or shat my pants =)!

Yeah, if after Inland Empire his next project ended with the super glove defeating the evil ball in earnest and Candie being glad she brought so many sandwiches for the wrap party, I dunno what I would have thought.

My guess as to your reaction in that case: "Still the Best Show Ever!" :carcus: But yeah, this is definitely a revelation and significant work after a decade of relative inactivity. Vintage Lynch whether you think its among his best work or not.

That was kind of a foreboding music choice though, wasn't it? Last time we heard it, was in the "it is happening again" scene.

Good call on the relative timing (when Laura herself should have been getting murdered), but it's also just more classic Peaks because that Julie Cruise music is all over the original soundtrack. BTW, also good time to note Coop was never above screwing up as the Giant is literally waving his arms at him and telling him the killer is striking again while he's just like "HUH?" It was hilariously about the least subtle or confusing message delivered on the show.

I don't have any big take and i'm trying hard not to geek out over all the theories, i just wanted to say i found the whole experience rather cold and sterile.

Awww, I hope it didn't all feel to you like episodes 12 and 13 to me, because that's where it obviously lost me, and others, for a bit. Also, not to accuse you of contrarianism (never =), but I think it'd be easier to note the show's virtues rather than its flaws if all the critics weren't climbing over each other to be the loudest to declare it the greatest thing ever without really explaining why they think so (a fair thing to reject if you feel it falls short). Maybe the show just wholly didn't do it for you and you weren't paying any attention to the hype, but it worked for me despite the fact I saw a bunch of pub blowing it and saying it's a whole "new proactive paradigm" for television... in ways that will be explained another time. Not that my critical take is much better, basically describing it a series of offbeat stimuli that makes me feel some unfamiliar sensations that I ultimately like experiencing (put that on the back if the blu-ray).

The lack of music made a big difference, Lynch's sound design is serviceable, but it's only half of the dream-like state his films induce. It seems Badalamenti was only credited but didn't add anything new. A shame, for the lack of a proper score gave me a sense of detachment and a lack of vibrancy i get when i watch his stuff.

I can see, er hear, what you mean. The music was very subdued most of the time, to the point that my wife and I would have subtitles on and notice it saying [ambient music] and that was basically our only indication that the barely audible droning tone was providing any bed of music to a scene. I thought this was largely intentional though for contrast with the tone of the original (and particularly the town of Twin Peaks itself, which stood out like a sore thumb to the rest of the world, but I think that proved purposeful too), and that the big musical moments, particularly the return of iconic Twin Peaks scores, were being used judiciously to punctuate those moments. I otherwise thought the sound was pretty excellent at conveying the feel of the story, even if it was a less is more approach overall. 

The bad digital effects expanded on the absence of emotion for me.

I agreed with your assessment of the effects in the early episodes and objectively found them hit or miss throughout, but by the time we reached Diane's first farewell it was clearly part of the aesthetic experience, not a hurdle to it.

I felt completely uncaring for most of the events until part 18 hit me several hours later.

It hit definitely hit though, and judging from your assessment below it doesn't sound like it's making you feel nothing anymore. I guess I had a better experience throughout, I definitely felt a lot of interesting feelings watching, albeit sometimes exasperation, but it was definitely a worthwhile viewing experience that made me consider the way media makes me feel, why, and why don't more shows make me feel these different sort of untapped emotions watching or seemingly even try? I think everything that came before definitely sets up the way the ending leaves you feeling as well. It was ultimately still the journey, but a different sort, more insular despite the explicit, and perhaps extraneous, lore and theories, with different narrative priorities, milestones, and goals, or lack thereof, than we're used to.

If FWWM had some form of redemption at the end, this season had none. No heart or soul (Dougie was the closest to it), and the bleakest ending possible. A lost Coop, losing his humanity while realizing that Laura can't be saved, no matter how much the world has changed, suffering is perpetual.

Hey man, death is change and happiness is but an illusion... or dream (and I hope this cheers you up a bit despite the crude effects =).



No one screams like Sheryl Lee.

Indeed, make room in the Scream Queen Hall of Fame Fay Wray and Jamie Lee Curtis. Good lord I had to have the volume control handy after like the 2nd scream, she still got me at the end.


Anyway, again, no surprises (except I wasn't so sure what to rate it right after =):

« Last Edit: September 06, 2017, 07:49:55 PM by Griffith »

Offline NightCrawler

  • Of the Vortex
  • ****
  • Posts: 1728
  • Karma: 6
  • Gender: Male
  • Aeons gone, vast, mad and deathless
Re: Twin Peaks Returns
« Reply #168 on: September 06, 2017, 08:29:22 PM »
The more i think about part 18, and how meta this season was, it becomes clearer that what i felt about this season was what Lynch intended me to feel. I enjoyed the experience. I wasn't trying to criticize its flaws, but its message, and ultimately, Lynch's cynicism. What irked me is that the emotional grandeur of Lynch's films (and the underlying hope amidst the chaos) was not present purposively. The contrast between the naive sentimentality and the cruel harsh reality was barely there, because it was all covered in sarcasm and parody. There was no greater ideal to fight for, just a somewhat charming mumbling retard.
As for the meta part, we got quite a bit of it throughout the season that should've prepared us for that finale, but still... That last ep showed such disenchantment on Lynch's part, such a contrast from part 17 (where TP was still fully in its fictional world), then suddenly everything gets transported to this pseudo-real world, and the message is clear, we're fully awake here, everyone is lost and confused, there's no more dream. And who was the dreamer but the audience? No hay banda. I get it Lynch. I just preferred when the dismal reality of TP was about abuse and not some looping meta existentialism. But really, don't get me wrong, i enjoyed it guys. :ganishka: I'll rewatch it for sure.

Also, i don't get how people can say this ended in a cliffhanger or we need another season? Yeah, they could pull something out of their asses if they wanted, but this was as definitive as it could ever get. Lynch went back and destroyed everything (it's almost like he made a point of corrupting nostalgia), there's no more TP, but at least Pete can finally go fishing.
Berserk isn't really "dark fantasy" either. It's plain fantasy
Miura has been very protective of Berserk

Offline Eluvei

Re: Twin Peaks Returns
« Reply #169 on: September 06, 2017, 09:36:44 PM »
BTW, also good time to note Coop was never above screwing up as the Giant is literally waving his arms at him and telling him the killer is striking again while he's just like "HUH?" It was hilariously about the least subtle or confusing message delivered on the show.

No doubt. I always thought the Giant sounded... disappointed? And yeah it's kinda hilarious for the guy to interrupt a concert to tell him he sucks as a detective. :ganishka:

The contrast between the naive sentimentality and the cruel harsh reality was barely there, because it was all covered in sarcasm and parody. There was no greater ideal to fight for, just a somewhat charming mumbling retard.

Hard disagree with this. I can understand being negatively affected by the "bad story", as Sarah puts it, that this show is ultimately about, but I thought there were several instances of genuine happiness and peace that were not supposed to be seen as sarcastic, even when they were over the top. Most of them connected to Dougie, yes (he basically made everyone try to become a better person in his storyline), but even Albert, the once cynical guy, had that little moment on a date with that woman, while Cole watched in obvious genuine happiness. Not to mention Norma and Big Ed. If you thought that sequence was supposed to be a complete parody, then I think you could say that about every instance like that in his other movies, like the robin eating the bug at the end of Blue Velvet: maybe it was robotic and artificial on purpose. I don't buy it though.

I mean even Part 8 had a sequence dedicated to the birth of literal hope in the middle of what was essentially a horror movie.

Offline NightCrawler

  • Of the Vortex
  • ****
  • Posts: 1728
  • Karma: 6
  • Gender: Male
  • Aeons gone, vast, mad and deathless
Re: Twin Peaks Returns
« Reply #170 on: September 07, 2017, 12:54:17 AM »
I agree there were tender moments, but you're looking at them in a vacuum, in the big picture they seemed masked by the pretense that it's all a dream, that we the viewers are playing along in a perversion of nostalgia. Even the fan service was ridiculously on the nose.

Yes, the robin in BV is purposely fake, there's more than one shot of it to make it clear. These are themes that Lynch reuses, but with Inland Empire, and this Return of TP the darkness at the end seemed to have surpassed all hope.


Here's a good DL quote that defines a lot of his work:

"Being in darkness and confusion is interesting to me. But behind it you can rise out of that and see things the way the really are. That there is some sort of truth to the whole thing, if you could just get to that point where you could see it, and live it, and feel it ... I think it is a long, long, way off. In the meantime there's suffering and darkness and confusion and absurdities, and it's people kind of going in circles. It's fantastic. It's like a strange carnival: it's a lot of fun, but it's a lot of pain."
Berserk isn't really "dark fantasy" either. It's plain fantasy
Miura has been very protective of Berserk

Offline Eluvei

Re: Twin Peaks Returns
« Reply #171 on: September 07, 2017, 01:40:26 AM »
I agree there were tender moments, but you're looking at them in a vacuum, in the big picture they seemed masked by the pretense that it's all a dream, that we the viewers are playing along in a perversion of nostalgia. Even the fan service was ridiculously on the nose.

Yes, the robin in BV is purposely fake, there's more than one shot of it to make it clear. These are themes that Lynch reuses, but with Inland Empire, and this Return of TP the darkness at the end seemed to have surpassed all hope.


Here's a good DL quote that defines a lot of his work:

"Being in darkness and confusion is interesting to me. But behind it you can rise out of that and see things the way the really are. That there is some sort of truth to the whole thing, if you could just get to that point where you could see it, and live it, and feel it ... I think it is a long, long, way off. In the meantime there's suffering and darkness and confusion and absurdities, and it's people kind of going in circles. It's fantastic. It's like a strange carnival: it's a lot of fun, but it's a lot of pain."

I mean, it's obviously fake, but not in a way that's supposed to make the scene evoke a false sense of peace. And that quote proves this point: he may use artifice and dreams to show glimpses of beauty in a bad world, but not necessarily to make it look the only way to find happiness is to live in a state of ignorance. It looks like to you, the definition of "dream" is close to that of "lie", and I don't think to Lynch it is. He says it's a lot of fun and pain, not just pain.

That quote is basically TM's whole philosophy, closing your eyes to see beyond, et cetera. Big Ed is literally shown meditating before his life is permanently fixed in the show. Unless he wanted to make a parody of his own world view, I don't see how that was pure nostalgia baiting and sarcasm. Also, I don't think the quote necessarily defines his work. It doesn't define every aspect of it, anyway. A lot of dumb shit in this show was there for the sake of humor, sometimes inappropriately so. Some Dumbland type of stuff in almost every episode, most of it starring himself. If Coop's storyline ending on a macabre note defines the entire show and his worldview, and the other conclusions (or lack thereof) are less important, you're looking at it in a vacuum. I don't think he "destroyed everything" as you put it. He destroyed some stuff, but he built a lot in almost every episode.

Offline VengeanceQuest982

Re: Twin Peaks Returns
« Reply #172 on: September 07, 2017, 02:32:23 PM »
...And lets not forget that what we thought was an owl symbol on BOB's ring has in fact been an inverted symbol for "Judy " this entire time. The music in the 3rd and likely final season has had a critical narrative and character overflow  : from The Chromatics "Shadow, Rebekah Del Rios's "No Stars", Eddie Vedder's "Out of Sand" to the list of classic 50s/60's musical acts --that centered around Cooper and his various shadows falling in defeat together, Cooper going back to where it all began , or a hollow and broken Cooper weighed down by his fighting tides he could not win against  or around individual characters not tethered to the larger story.

Offline Eluvei

Re: Twin Peaks Returns
« Reply #173 on: September 07, 2017, 07:35:30 PM »
Really enjoyed reading this take, even if some things here and there don't really fit completely: http://www.waggish.org/2017/twin-peaks-finale/

Offline Walter

  • 賢者
  • Administrator
  • Of the Abyss
  • *****
  • Posts: 15864
  • Karma: 464
  • Gender: Male
  • Chapter ≠ Episode
Re: Twin Peaks Returns
« Reply #174 on: September 07, 2017, 07:44:29 PM »
I forgot to mention: "See you at the curtain call" was one of the coolest goodbye lines ever. Though somewhat downgraded by them being reunited next to an actual curtain.
:femto: :slan: :ubik: