True Detective

Griffith

My posts are better.
Walter said:
This could be on me, but Episode 3 put me to sleep.
No, I think your body was right: it was a snoozer.

IncantatioN said:
I'm almost tempted to skip the next few episodes till there's a full season to watch but it's fun discussing the show episodically.
Too bad it's not fun to watch that way! :troll:

IncantatioN said:
I didn't get the point of keeping Ray alive like that ... does that mean the Birdfella was expecting him and didn't have live rounds or he didn't intend to kill him specifically or didn't intend to kill anyone who walked into the place? Fire these kind of rounds to help with an escape?
It really didn't make sense considering that, besides the opening that they could have used either way, this was his least vital outing.
If he's going to continue like this, he might have been better off dead and a TV martyr. Anyway, the only way they can redeem this whole thing is if they payoff the line, "like cops use." Otherwise, the whole thing is completely dumb. BTW, so you the prophecy from the opening dream will come to pass and he's going to end up with those fatal wounds?

IncantatioN said:
But what's with the sexual direction this season? Crime scene full of weird sex stuff, Frank and his infertility, Ani and her weird/ hardcore sexual side, Woodrugh's repressed gay side ...
Yeah, and it's all sexual and parental issues 101 stuff. *yawn*

IncantatioN said:
With the media war between those two directors, notice how the film maker in this episode had a slight resemblance with Fukunaga? Think Pizalatto's written the character as one of the bad guys?! :schierke: aaii yaaii yaaii that's spiteful.
Incredibly so, and it really only reinforces the bad press Pizzolatto has gotten.


Update: Well, as I somewhat expected, something finally happened last night! Or did it? Considering it's already almost certainly a red herring, even to the principals, what's this have to do with the case or by extension the show? I'm no wizkid novelist or TV writer, but you should probably make the case the show is about inherently interesting, rather than something you need to invent interesting diversions from. Just sayin'. =)

Anyway, I saw an EW headline this morning calling last night's ending divisive, which I immediately thought was a good thing for the show since previously everyone was pretty much in agreement that it sucked.
 
Last nights episode had hiccups but felt like the investigations moving somewhere and forward. Best episode so far?

Spoilers -
Woodrugh does nothing to impress, the exact opposite of Velcoro or Ani in this episode. That ending sequence in the orgy house was all Ani, engaging but some of it felt like shallow shock-value stuff. And Velcoro's restrained anger and emotions unfold little by little with every outing the character gets, good to watch, I mean if there's nothing moving forward otherwise, at least that's what made Velcoro's story much more interesting right? This episode had him move up a notch. Few points to talk about -

1. tall officer - don't know if we've seen him yet but it's def possible I missed noticing in any past episode because of how disappointing and jarring/mediocre they were. Re-watch?! Uhhhhh *dreading* ... btw, shouldn't it be easy to find a tall fella in the squad now that Frank knows and can tell Velcoro about it? I expect them to find him in the next episode.

2. Frank's own investigation moved the episode forward which was a good break from our detectives, I like how it didn't end too well for him. I wonder what that response from one of his henchmen meant as they walked away from the body? Btw, this was Franks best episode yet, he had some really cool dialog too.

3. that whole orgy scene felt over the top and Ani found that missing girl so easy! And what's up with that super bad private security?! Velcoro was standing outside unchecked for so freakin long, plus the easy escape.

2 episodes left guys.
 

Griffith

My posts are better.
It waz alright, Velcoro and the ending of the episode had their moments, but I can't help but feel like this thing peaked at the end of episode 2. After Velcoro's weird Conway Twitty vision, it's all been downhill.
 
Looks like the last episode's going to be 90 mins.

Episode 7 had things move quick and it's been so long that I don't remember why (spoiler ahead) -
those diamonds are in the center of the whole investigation ...
. There are a lot of characters to keep track of and there hasn't been much chemistry between the detectives until the last two episodes. Watching Rust and Marty bounce off each other was what was key to S1 working. Spoiler -
who is that girl in the picture they were looking at? Have we seen her before or she's a new character they're going to have to find?
 

Griffith

My posts are better.
IncantatioN said:
Looks like the last episode's going to be 90 mins.
Great... :schierke:

Well, shit is finally going down at least, but it's too late, and truly too little, and all these bland and unmemorable side characters that are likely key to the conclusion of the case and the series are bound to underwhelm.
The girl is that little girl from the robbery, which only became important like two episodes ago and, like everything else, is scarcely supported so we could have more scenes of smoldering staring. E.G. Stan, who was following Blake; that's who Stan was! Probably should have emphasized that more before he died and we met his kid, etc.
I do enjoy hate watching this ridiculous thing though, so I really hope the finale is as big a hot mess as it promises to be. After that, washing my hands of the whole thing (if it still is a thing after this) unless Woody and Matt come back.
 

Walter

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Griffith said:
After that, washing my hands of the whole thing (if it still is a thing after this) unless Woody and Matt come back.
[quote author=http://www.cinemablend.com/television/True-Detective-Return-Season-3-Here-What-HBO-Says-75327.html]
If [Nic Pizzolatto] wanted to do another season, I told him our door is open. I’d love to do another season with him…I think he’s an enormously talented writer, and I have already called him and said, ‘Nic, if you want to do a Season 3, let’s start talking.’[/quote]

:badbone:

I haven't progressed beyond Episode 3, and given the various smells I get from this thread, I doubt I'll ever finish it.

What a shame.
 

Griffith

My posts are better.

Walter

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Just finished S3. It was a real pile of shit. I implore anyone who was on the fence not to bother with it.

This was a brazen attempt to recapture some of the magic of season 1 by emulating a few steps along the way. But it's plain even early on that the script does not have enough material to cash the checks it is writing. I stuck around to see how it wrapped up, and now I'm sad I gave it a shot, given the warning signs. No not even Mahershala Ali could rescue this ship.
 

Oburi

All praise Grail
Walter said:
Just finished S3. It was a real pile of shit. I implore anyone who was on the fence not to bother with it.

This was a brazen attempt to recapture some of the magic of season 1 by emulating a few steps along the way. But it's plain even early on that the script does not have enough material to cash the checks it is writing. I stuck around to see how it wrapped up, and now I'm sad I gave it a shot, given the warning signs. No not even Mahershala Ali could rescue this ship.
Bummer. Was hoping for something better, but I guess this confirms the worst. Thanks for the heads up.
 

I know that I know :)

My post our worse
Finished s3 I think it was better than s2 however I think the season was lacking in terms of a main antagonist or real threat.
I didn't like how the case was solved by just one guy giving the detectives all the answers (with tons of flashbacks) last second. And the fact that all the people that could have been considered an antagonist is dead so in the end there is no one to catch/confront making the finale fall short compared to the s1 finale which included this epic chase scene and final battle that felt satisfying as the detectives actually did something and served some justice(however the cult is most likely still at large) whereas in s3 they failed to do anything its like the whole investigation didn't even matter. I do like the twist that the mother is in on it that's about it as far as the finale,but she is dead so it doesn't even matter
. Such a shame I thought this time we would get something as good as s1 that being said I think this season did have its highs and lows mostly lows if anyone wants to watch it now I would suggest you not to expect season 1 types of quality.

Sometimes I think the dark is winning. Wow, that sounded way better in my head.
 

Grail

Feel the funk blast
Gob and I recently got into True Detective and caught up on all 3 seasons over the past couple months, culminating in the S3 finale last night! :isidro:

Username, I agree with most of your comments.
I think that I had built up the mystery behind the pink rooms and Julie's disappearance as being similar to the plot of Season 1, with the secret pedophilia ring and sordid goings-on running through the small town and being much bigger than what Hayes and West could ever hope to handle on their own. I honestly feel disappointed that the explanation behind everything was basically a single rich woman who had gone a bit bonkers. While I agree that this was a big improvement over the convoluted ball of yarn that was season 2, I felt like 3 built us up with a plot that ultimately felt too small for what we've come to expect from the series. Summoning Marty and Cohle feels like a cheap move, considering that the conflict of this season didn't end with nearly half of the excitement as our guys' Louisiana misadventures.

I can say, however, that the journey to the final episode was a great one. I really felt like I was rooting for Hayes, and his struggles with losing his memory as an old man were heartbreaking to watch. I also really enjoyed seeing how he and his wife could talk out their problems over the course of their marriage - it felt like a very natural relationship, and without some of the forced dramatics of previous seasons. Hayes was a compelling character overall, for sure. My mind keeps going back to him going off into the wilderness to track down Will and Julie at the very beginning of the season. His scene of horrible discovery in that cave was, to me, what True Detective was all about, and I really hoped that they had continued down a different path from that point.

Ultimately, I would say that season 3 was okay, but not great. I'll certainly keep my expectations in check for when the next season inevitably comes around. It seems to me like the creator is trying different things for fear of just repeating season 1, but can't seem to make the necessary tweaks that result in the same satisfying storytelling.
 

Walter

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Grail said:
While I agree that this was a big improvement over the convoluted ball of yarn that was season 2, I felt like 3 built us up with a plot that ultimately felt too small for what we've come to expect from the series.
It was so paper thin, when all was said and done. And not in a "simple story, told well!" kind of way. It's just TOO simple to warrant the way in which the story is constructed.

I honestly feel disappointed that the explanation behind everything was basically a single rich woman who had gone a bit bonkers
It was so weak. A character who had been mentioned twice, never seen on-screen until the final episode, ended up the reason for absolutely everything that happened -- from the kidnapping, to the death of Will, the lost years in the Pink Room, to the insanity of Julie. All at the hands of a character shown only in flashbacks that never even gets a spoken word. What a pile of shit.

Summoning Marty and Cohle feels like a cheap move, considering that the conflict of this season didn't end with nearly half of the excitement as our guys' Louisiana misadventures.
It was a red-herring, but also one that pokes fun at sites/people who took the S1 conspiracy stuff deeper than it deserved to be. Eliza basically represents a side of the fandom for True Detective, and Pizzolato relegating her theories as unrelated to the actual happenings in this mystery felt to me like a way of slighting that stuff. And if that's the case, it doesn't strike me as a particularly effective editorialization from the writer, since the truth to the S3 mystery comes out of left field in the final episode. Nice work, Nic!

I can say, however, that the journey to the final episode was a great one. I really felt like I was rooting for Hayes, and his struggles with losing his memory as an old man were heartbreaking to watch.
The biggest disappointment for me wasn't the "mystery" reveal. It was the trappings of time being tangible, the introduction of Alzheimer's without it being used in a creative way (no, the History Channel extras in his office did not strike me as a very creative usage, nor did Deus Ex-Wifeina). All those time-bending shots as Hays catches glimpses of old/ young versions of himself -- that shit went nowhere. It was a stylistic way of validating the fact that the story was told in 3 segments, not in a way that added to the narrative. I really expected a lot more, when they hinted at that stuff. For example, instead of simply forgetting where he was like he's Lenny in Memento, I expected Old Hays to finally have a sitdown with June or Mr. Hoyt when he's in the sharp frame of mind of Young Hays. The same way that he confuses the caretaker's daughter with his own. THAT could have been a cool usage of Alzheimer's. But no, it's really just an enfeebling characteristic, and a vehicle for the final moments of the mystery. It felt like a real cop out given all the focus on "time" in this thing.
 

I know that I know :)

My post our worse
Well, s3 wasn't the best which makes me very disappointed as true detective could be really compelling as we see in s1 and parts of s2 hell even s3 peaked my interest during the beginning
I thought the killer would turn out to be Hayes wife it would have been cool and maybe even gave us a major conflict of Hayes trying to avoid the truth that his own wife was the killer all along. Maybe even gave us reasons why Hayes seems to be afraid to face his wife when she appears behind him as he knows deep down that she is the killer. Then episode 7 hits and that cool concept is flush down the toilet.I'm just sitting there wondering what was that whole scene about when Hayes said: "what's that smell you got on you"
. That's not to say I want s1 all over again but it is never a bad idea to use the concepts that made true detective so good in the first place like an artist the painting might be different but the painter's style stays the same for the most part.
 

Walter

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Username has been taken said:
I'm just sitting there wondering what was that whole scene about when Hayes said: "what's that smell you got on you"
Translation: He wanted to have intercourse with her. :void:

That's not to say I want s1 all over again but it is never a bad idea to use the concepts that made true detective so good in the first place like an artist the painting might be different but the painter's style stays the same for the most part.
I've got the monumental solution to HBO's True Detective problem: Drop Nic Pizzolatto. Anthology noir can be cool. It isn't cool with this guy at the helm.
 

Grail

Feel the funk blast
I think you guys both touch on why season 3 ultimately felt like such a let-down. It was really a strong start, but ended in a fizzle of lost opportunities.
While I'm not sure if I like the idea of the wife being the killer Username, your idea shows more creative thinking than the final resolution. I feel like they could have done way more with the one-eyed man, as they teased him as such a sinister, shadowy figure.

Walter, I see what you're saying about the Alzheimer's. My interpretation was that with the writers wanted to focus on the hopelessness of the condition, and explains why Hays' memories of his wife in '90 and '80 were so much clearer, and his more recent recollections are so few. However, I do agree that they could have done more with it than the Memento stuff, and it seemed to slow the narrative down at times when it could have enhanced it.
 

I know that I know :)

My post our worse
Walter said:
Translation: He wanted to have intercourse with her. :void:
AH so this is what you adult humans call flirting :???: noted.

In all seriousness I thought the seen was indicating that she was planting evidence by making the bookbag they found in the crime scene ( which Hayes even said appeared to look planted)appear burnt which then caused some of the smell to come on her and Hayes (being the expert tracker he is)happen to pick up on it, also her face gave me the impression she was in a state of shock and fear much less a face of arousal and shock :carcus:. but hey I'm no expert on this stuff.
 

Griffith

My posts are better.
Welp, I enjoyed this one a lot more than the last season for obvious reasons, and seemingly more than you guys. Mahershala Ali and Dorff were great, it started strong, return to form and all that shit, but it lost steam quickly as it went along going from slow and hypnotic to slow and redundant, with Wayne becoming less interesting by the decade. So, I tempered my expectations early and kind of saw where it was going and that it wasn't gonna be some big crazy thing like people always want to believe ("what if, like, the detective himself did it, maaaan!?"). But that's a good thing, I'm glad they didn't go full conspiracy and it was just a smaller, more introverted story. The theme the finale puncuated for the season was the importance of family, one's investment in it, losing or holding on to it, yearning for it, etc. Even at Wayne's bitter asshole apex in the 90s when it didn't seem like he cared, he ultimately did the right thing for his wife and family every time and it paid off. Even Roland, whose only family was his friend that didn't realize it, got to enjoy the fruit of that, and so it worked out for everybody in the end... while still managing to feel cheap and unsatisfying. :ganishka:

On that note, my main gripes are
the implication Henry could give Julie up to the obnoxious true crime host, though at least it's a hope that if the truth eventually comes out Wayne will be validated, but Roland should have had a chance to meet Julie on screen and tell her about Tom. Wasted opportunity. Oh yeah, and of course Wayne didn't write down that she was alive or tell Henry or Roland despite knowing how crucial this was every step of the way before that.
Eh, but it's fine, like I said, it clearly was what it was a few episodes ago, which is fine for 8 well acted, intriguing, but ultimately not very substantial episodes. Episodes 1-3 were pretty good, 4-5, directed by Pizzolatto, dipped, 6-7 picked up the pace again, with the end of 6 maybe the highlight of the season, and 8... YMMV. If you wanted a grandiose payoff though, which 7 still left wide open, this was not it. Probably not a good idea to completely switch gears in the finale. Plot twist: It was a mundane story about a forgetful old man all along! =)

Walter said:
I've got the monumental solution to HBO's True Detective problem: Drop Nic Pizzolatto. Anthology noir can be cool. It isn't cool with this guy at the helm.
It's kind of a catch 22 to want one without the other. It was cool with him when everybody liked it and thought it was worthwhile in the first place, he's responsible for that too, but if he's never getting close to that again...

I don't think it's such a problem for them though, and it's probably better they let the show sink or swim with the creator regardless. If it is a problem, just cancel it and have another detective show. There's no shortage of them already and plenty of people just as or more qualified to do it, but it'd be weird to try to usurp the brand if it's so bad now anyway.

If people want them to recapture the magic, which we were clearly dancing around with here, just bring back Matt, Woody, and Fukunaga and take down The Yellow King Cult for good; they left meat on that bone, but seem to be scared to touch it (probably with good reason). But, if we can't move on, and why would we, those characters and stories were more compelling than these; so, you gotta risk face-planting playing with them again rather than keeping them sealed in a perfect bubble from five years ago because it wasn't perfect anyway, so just let us enjoy them again. It's not sacred. It's like if you wrote a popular book with those characters and people loved and them and so... you never wrote another book with them again. That's not how popular book or TV series work. =)
 

I know that I know :)

My post our worse
Johnstantine said:
Stephen Dorff was the only thing good about the season. Dude knocked his performance out of the park.
Yeah, I found him to be one of the more interesting characters and there is no doubt he did well in his performance,but I think Mahershala Ali deserves some praise did just as good and a few of the other actors did well too they where just not in a great true detective season put these same actors in a season of true detective that is just as good as s1 and it would be great however the way this show is going I don't think we would ever get something that can rival s1.

Also when I saw that bar fight scene with Stephen Dorff it ironically reminded me of a similar scene
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vdCYrClCdlQ
cmon was anyone else thinking the same thing when they saw that bar fight scene
I think Stephen Dorff might be able to take home the award for the best bar fight scene
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nJ-dG9LwjbM
Griffith said:
It's kind of a catch 22 to want one without the other. It was cool with him when everybody liked it and thought it was worthwhile in the first place, he's responsible for that too, but if he's never getting close to that again...
Hbo executive:
I'm on it already see this guy who his name again Nic Pinocchio whatever he ain't making money no more we need a new guy. let me think I got it see the crowd loves action they go crazy for this stuff "snorts mysterious white powder on desk" so we gonna give the people what they want Linda get me Zack Snyder on the phone cmon show me the money we taking this show to Hollywood baby!!!!!!!

Griffith said:
If people want them to recapture the magic, which we were clearly dancing around with here, just bring back Matt, Woody, and Fukunaga and take down The Yellow King Cult for good; they left meat on that bone, but seem to be scared to touch it (probably with good reason). But, if we can't move on, and why would we, those characters and stories were more compelling than these; so, you gotta risk face-planting playing with them again rather than keeping them sealed in a perfect bubble from five years ago because it wasn't perfect anyway, so just let us enjoy them again. It's not sacred. It's like if you wrote a popular book with those characters and people loved and them and so... you never wrote another book with them again. That's not how popular book or TV series work. =)
I don't know about that one I feel like that would take away from the theme they where trying to show at the end of s1 on how you can't possibly stop all the evil in the world you can only do your best and stop as much as you can but you will never truly put a stop to it all. It gives us a bittersweet ending but an ending that is realistic and if looked at right hopefull as the dark may still have a firm grasp on the world but the light is starting to shine through and in Rust eyes, the lights winning. Now I'm not complaining about a season of Rust in his past as an undercover narcotics detective now that would be interesting and possibly awesome if done right.
 

Walter

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I don't necessarily need it to be Rust and Marty all over again (but hey, I wouldn't thumb my nose at it) I just want a Moneyed Noir show that only HBO seems capable of delivering. And I feel like Pizzolatto has already played all of his cards at this point, particularly after I read his book (Galveston, which was lame).
 

Griffith

My posts are better.
Username has been taken said:
Yeah, I found him to be one of the more interesting characters and there is no doubt he did well in his performance,but I think Mahershala Ali deserves some praise did just as good and a few of the other actors did well too
Acting was a big strong point, and did a lot to help carry the atmosphere early on and keep the show afloat during those midseason doldrums. Ali's part ended up being pretty thankless compared to Dorff's. He had to be in like every scene and do all this narrative heavy lifting too; a lot of telling rather than showing who he was like Roland.

they where just not in a great true detective season put these same actors in a season of true detective that is just as good as s1 and it would be great however the way this show is going I don't think we would ever get something that can rival s1.
I don't know about that one I feel like that would take away from the theme they where trying to show at the end of s1 on how you can't possibly stop all the evil in the world you can only do your best and stop as much as you can but you will never truly put a stop to it all. It gives us a bittersweet ending but an ending that is realistic and if looked at right hopefull as the dark may still have a firm grasp on the world but the light is starting to shine through and in Rust eyes, the lights winning. Now I'm not complaining about a season of Rust in his past as an undercover narcotics detective now that would be interesting and possibly awesome if done right.
I get not wanting to ruin it or jump the shark, but it's not like it was such sacred ground or so perfect they can't risk revisiting it. I mean, their cell phones immediately stopped working and they still chased the slasher into his haunted horror lair without backup like in every bad horror movie. A lot of the philosophy was just as muddled as some of the themes this season and the whole, "you don't get to get them all" was a cop-out so the show never had to lay out all its cards. I'm not saying this because that stuff actually bothers me about that season, but just pointing out its success wasn't owed to any sort of flawlessness, but more its satisfying brand of messiness.

Walter said:
I don't necessarily need it to be Rust and Marty all over again (but hey, I wouldn't thumb my nose at it) I just want a Moneyed Noir show that only HBO seems capable of delivering. And I feel like Pizzolatto has already played all of his cards at this point, particularly after I read his book (Galveston, which was lame).
Yeah, I don't know what else he has to say after that anti-true detective True Detective finale, because it almost certainly was meant to thumb its nose at the whole thing and flip it on its head, which I'm actually ok with if you don't have the goods otherwise, better than another half-baked conspiracy (and it doesn't always have to be about that). It's one thing to blow people's minds with the potential of a big conspiracy or the ambition of multiple timelines coming together, but to actually lay it all out in the end and still impress people is another. I still don't think the show has done the latter yet, and that would be the move with a Rust and Marty redux.
 

ahf248

Don't forget your poison arrows.
I'm finally caught up with season 3 as well and thought I'd give my 2 cents, granted a bit late.

Like Walter pointed out, it's clear as day they took a few steps back and tried to recreate what they considered to be the first season's charm, but ultimately left a lot to be desired.

In its defense, I will say that the acting was pretty good, I liked both Mahershala Ali's and Stephen Dorff's performances, they didn't constantly remind me I was watching actors reciting a script in front of a camera (unlike season 2). It was well filmed and post-produced, but I guess you wouldn't expect anything less from a show funded by HBO in this day and age.

Unfortunately they missed, by a big margin, what made the first season so good, that being the complex and tumultuous relation between the the two main characters (which here was limited to almost non-existent throughout most of the series) and also the various philosophical and existential issues that were constantly being addressed and explored, often times as a consequence of this conflict of personality between the two, and their world view.

In other words, the script was extremely weak, there were a couple of good exchanges early on, but nothing evolved beyond that point. The writing and vision behind this season were simply nowhere near what I expected from Pizzolatto, which was disappointing. It constantly felt like a dumbed down, lobotomized almost, wannabe version of season 1, lacking all manner or ingenuity and following a safe trajectory until the end.

Speaking of which, the conclusion was also a let down.
All the signs that had been introduced as the series progressed, leading to the belief that this was a carefully planned abduction only to be revealed in the end that it was actually just an accident with a sloppy cover-up and the dolls and all the other clues were just dropped there by mistake and it took these detectives 35 years to uncover the truth, all of it just felt stupid. Even the characters remark it at some point in the final episode, almost in a meta self aware way like "we know it's shaky, but they couldn't think of anything better".

I believe this season fell short in part because it was associated with the True Detective name, which season 1 set such a high standard for it's really difficult to come close, and the similarities only end up doing more harm than good by constantly reminding you of the superior version. If you were to dissociate it from the franchise and show it to someone who's never seen season 1, I think it would pass as an overall decent crime series.

Walter said:
And I feel like Pizzolatto has already played all of his cards at this point, particularly after I read his book (Galveston, which was lame).
Not to seem like I'm trying to defend it or anything like that, but I'm curious as to why you didn't like Galveston. Sure, the story and characters weren't all that complex in hindsight and things were sometimes played for cheap excitement, but it set the atmosphere just right and had great prose. It took a rather overused and cliche premise and brought it to its highest potential in a way.

I think Nic Pizzolatto is a good writer, and this book kinda proves that season 1 wasn't just a fluke, at least to me. It's possible that his poor performance in the anthology department has to do with his inexperience and writing style, more than with the fact that he's burned out.
 

Griffith

My posts are better.
Bleac said:
Unfortunately they missed, by a big margin, what made the first season so good, that being the complex and tumultuous relation between the the two main characters (which here was limited to almost non-existent throughout most of the series) and also the various philosophical and existential issues that were constantly being addressed and explored, often times as a consequence of this conflict of personality between the two, and their world view.

In other words, the script was extremely weak, there were a couple of good exchanges early on, but nothing evolved beyond that point. The writing and vision behind this season were simply nowhere near what I expected from Pizzolatto, which was disappointing. It constantly felt like a dumbed down, lobotomized almost, wannabe version of season 1, lacking all manner or ingenuity and following a safe trajectory until the end.
Counterpoint: Is it really better to copy, redo and double down on everything about season 1, particularly the conversational sizzle or philosophical window dressing? I honestly think those are highly overrated parts of the show. Same for the VAST conspiracy stuff. Isn't that actually the lame thing to keep doing instead of just a petty crime that got WAY out of hand like a lot of kidnappings/murders (and it was still a pretty big conspiracy by real life standards)? I feel like the show was better served for ultimately how it was different from season 1 while playing with our expectations, particularly with Wayne's TV interview (you think he's just not showing his cards, but he actually knows there's nothing to the conspiracy shit =). I'm not trying to be an apologist for this season, it's definitely flawed and not special like the original, but a lot of the stuff people are saying is the worst about it, and should be more like season 1, is what actually I find more redeeming. Conversely, when people suggest they ape more season 1 stuff I feel like I'm taking crazy pills because that'd be even more hacky.

Bleac said:
I believe this season fell short in part because it was associated with the True Detective name, which season 1 set such a high standard for it's really difficult to come close, and the similarities only end up doing more harm than good by constantly reminding you of the superior version. If you were to dissociate it from the franchise and show it to someone who's never seen season 1, I think it would pass as an overall decent crime series.
I definitely agree with that, but we shouldn't expect that, and I liked that they didn't try topping the transcendent original at its own game but used that expectation to misdirect us while telling a very different kind of story. Again, if people want what made the first season so great again, then the show should just bring back those characters and actors, because them selling that dialogue was the lion's share of it, not the superior plotting or philosophy.
 

Walter

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Griffith said:
Counterpoint: Is it really better to copy, redo and double down on everything about season 1, particularly the conversational sizzle or philosophical window dressing?
I thought it was actually a weak spot that they were trying to emulate Season 1. It felt like the season's structure was mapped out in a board room ("include these bullet points and we're good to go! add a lawn guy in there too -- for our really sharp viewers!" :troll: ) And yet when I reflect on Season 1, I certainly am not thinking about the case. It's all character moments. So what I was looking for here wasn't necessarily a repeat, but a return to quality writing, quality characters that stuck with you after the show was over. Wayne and Roland each had their great moments, but that momentum seemed to die between scenes instead of being bigger than the show itself (like I felt with Marty and Cole). Any nostalgia over Season 1 is merely "Remember when it was good?" Because this wasn't that.

Bleac said:
Not to seem like I'm trying to defend it or anything like that, but I'm curious as to why you didn't like Galveston. Sure, the story and characters weren't all that complex in hindsight and things were sometimes played for cheap excitement, but it set the atmosphere just right and had great prose. It took a rather overused and cliche premise and brought it to its highest potential in a way.
Well I will say that I read it straight through in one bath, and that's a first for me. So something propelled me to finishing it. That's a good quality, I suppose, given all the books I've never finished (this one took me three tries in the past though).

But fundamentally, I found it incredibly boring. I mean, unless a noir where the characters hang out at a Texas beach hotel for half the book sounds like good material to you, in which case, dive in. Everything about it screamed "my first novel," so that bugged me. It's fine to be a rookie, I've never written a book myself, but I don't personally like being subjected to all of the writer's amateur decisions along the way. It was meandering. The main character was stock standard (He's actually like proto-Rust, and I like Rust! This guy is just more boring and without the actual trauma to justify the ascetic lifestyle. So he's like a half-finished claypot tough guy. The John Wayne movies? Come onnnnn. I see what you're doing, Nic.) He's almost arbitrarily painted on top of with character traits that gave the writer something to talk about. It just didn't strike me as something memorable. Certainly not something to greenlight a whole franchise. But that's why I don't work at HBO.
 
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